RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Puffin81 on Friday 25 January 19 19:44 GMT (UK)
-
I’m looking for James or Thomas Keenan est birth 1800. Died / dissapeared from family between 1838 to 1851
Married to Jane who was born 1799 (census information)
Son bartholomew born 1839.
I can’t find anything for the marriage, the birth of bartholomew (or siblings) which would hopefully help me to find the births of the parents
Siblings of bartholomew are James 1835 and Mary 1831, but i suspect more as I don’t believe a first child at 30 would be likely
Siblings and bartholomew all state birthplace of Ireland
I’ve mostly searched on roots, find my past and ancestry
-
It sounds like you are working backward (good) from UK or US censuses, since you have dates and country of births. Do you have anything more specific for where in Ireland the children were born? If so, you could look for parish records at nli.ie.
Where was James/Thomas last seen? It sounds like he did not show up on an 1851 census. Where was the rest of the family that year?
Why the doubt about his given name?
-
Uk census.
I’ve nothing about where any of them were born. In 1851 the rest of his family were living in tents in Carlisle. I can’t work out if Jane states married or widow on this census, but she definitely declares as widow in 1861
I know he must have been around in 1838 as this was when youngest son I’m aware of was born.
The Carlisle registry office has him as James when they transcribed the church marriage record for bartholomew, but I have a new copy of the marriage certificate which looks like Thomas. It also stated he is deceased in 1858 and that he was a soldier. The marriage is catholic
-
I didn't find any matches for the children on the free baptism index at findmypast.ie and I didn't find any deaths for Thomas Keenan in Cumberland from 1838 to 1858 at freebmd.org.uk.
Maybe some other readers will have some ideas.
-
I didn't find any matches for the children on the free baptism index at findmypast.ie and I didn't find any deaths for Thomas Keenan in Cumberland from 1838 to 1858 at freebmd.org.uk.
Maybe some other readers will have some ideas.
I can’t find any of the family in England census in 1841 so it’s possible the father died in Ireland and the wife came over to England with her now married daughter, who I can’t find a record of getting married either.
Attached is the census entry for 1851. As you can see Jane is camping with her daughter Mary mccluskey. Who’s youngest Child (2 years) was born in Cumberland,whiles the other were Ireland, so I assume they are new to the uk.
The odd thing is there are 2 older children I suspect aren’t actually Mary’s (Daniel & a daughter) due to the gap between their ages and marys baby daughter and the fact Mary would have had them when she was 8 and 12. So it’s possible these were janes children too. This is the oldest record I can find for them.
-
I don't think I have seen a census record so comprehensively crossed out after assessing the info on it.
I am looking at Jane's entry and I cannot make Keenan out of the writing that it there. She may be using her maiden name again. Looks like XXissan.
The children entered under her entry are James aged 16 and Bartholomeu aged 13. There is a ditto showing that they also share the name of the Jane immediately above.
The other idea could be that Daniel and John McCluskey/McClousky are the children of the father shown as William (I am not seeing Daniel as the father?) McCluskey and a prior wife to Mary.
What does the writing to the left of the entry say?
-
Is this them in 1871 census?
William Mccluskey Head M 44 Ireland
Mary Ann Mccluskey Wife F 41 Ireland
Jane Mccluskey Daughter F 22 New Town Of Erington, Cumberland
James Mccluskey Son M 18 Carlisle, Cumberland
Mary Ann Mccluskey Daughter F 2 Haltwhistle, Northumberland
John Shaw Son-in-law M 25 Carlisle, Cumberland
William Shaw Grandson M 4 Haltwhistle, Northumberland
John James Shaw Grandson M 2 Haltwhistle, Northumberland
Catherine Shaw Granddaughter F 1 Haltwhistle, Northumberland
"England and Wales Census, 1871", database with images, FamilySearch
-
I think you might find them elsewhere in the record and this would explain the crossing out as it is to stop them being double counted.
From my reading the bit at the side says
'These eight persons slept in tents and are in Table b(?)'
Have you found table b? What is the exact name of the place of the census other than Carlisle? You may find them there as an addition to the census.
-
UK Census 1861
Household
William Mc Clusky Head M 33 Ireland
Mary Mc Clusky Wife F 30 Ireland
Jane Mc Clusky Daughter F 12 Erdington, Cumberland
John Mc Clusky Son M 10 ..., Cumberland
James Mc Clusky Son M 7 Carlisle, Cumberland
Jane Keenan Mother In Law F 62 Ireland
Patrick Mc Guinn Lodger M 42 Ireland
John Thompson Lodger M 52 Ireland
James Malone Lodger M 35 Ireland
Robert Stewart Lodger M 43 Ireland
From FS. Not sure if the images are on Find my Past.
More clues might be to see if you can see if the four irish men boarding are from a particular place in Ireland.....might have been advised to go to Northumberland and look up the McClusky family if they wanted board.
-
If you think Thomas/James Keenan was a soldier have you searched for the military records?
I have found this record but do not know what the regiments etc was and if there are records available. Trouble is that he could not be the father of anyone born after Sep/Oct 1832.
Name: James Keenan
Gender: Male
Burial Date: 11 Nov 1831
Burial Place: Mhow, Bengal, India
Age: 28
Birth Date: 1803
Occupation: Gunner, 3 Co., 1 Batt.
Marital Status: Unknown
Mhow was founded in 1818 by John Malcolm as a cantonment town. It is still a major location of the Indian Army.FindMyPast has a good collection of military records, you might find this James Keenan there and be able to eliminate him, or not!
-
I think you might find them elsewhere in the record and this would explain the crossing out as it is to stop them being double counted.
From my reading the bit at the side says
'These eight persons slept in tents and are in Table b(?)'
Have you found table b? What is the exact name of the place of the census other than Carlisle? You may find them there as an addition to the census.
They were crossed out as they were included in the count of people without a home. The exact census is upperby, I’ve actually manually been through the census in Carlisle looking for them again or the husband. As in the next census she definitely declares herself as widdowed, but on this one I think she states married.
-
If you think Thomas/James Keenan was a soldier have you searched for the military records?
I have found this record but do not know what the regiments etc was and if there are records available. Trouble is that he could not be the father of anyone born after Sep/Oct 1832.
Name: James Keenan
Gender: Male
Burial Date: 11 Nov 1831
Burial Place: Mhow, Bengal, India
Age: 28
Birth Date: 1803
Occupation: Gunner, 3 Co., 1 Batt.
Marital Status: Unknown
Mhow was founded in 1818 by John Malcolm as a cantonment town. It is still a major location of the Indian Army.FindMyPast has a good collection of military records, you might find this James Keenan there and be able to eliminate him, or not!
Thanks, yes I’ve been looking but finding it hard to confirm with there being limited details and the only mention of him being on his sons marriage certificate.
-
The only other clue I have is Mary identifies as being born in county mayo in a much later census (1891). Her husband gives his but I’m unsure what it says or what his profession is, it’s some kind of hawker
-
He is a Tinplate Worker
-
He is a Tinplate Worker
Not necessarily a hawker, could be working in a factory making tin goods. On many censuses they put 'hawker' if the person is one.
-
There are several other threads on RootsChat about this family, earliest from 2013 and some in current month. Some information may be duplicated.
-
There are several other threads on RootsChat about this family, earliest from 2013 and some in current month. Some information may be duplicated.
Yes it’s quite a common name without all the spelling variations, they all had big family’s so.....
I cling to any odd name I find in my tree, this is one part of my line I’m really drawn too, I feel like it’s just going to take one thing to unscramble it.
-
Puffin, I meant to say that you have posted other threads on RootsChat about the family. Click on your user profile to see them.
-
Puffin, I meant to say that you have posted other threads on RootsChat about the family. Click on your user profile to see them.
Yes I know, I’ve tried to keep query’s separate especially when I’ve got new info so as not to get confused or go back on things I’ve been able to discount. I didn’t realise that was an issue
-
I am looking at Jane's entry and I cannot make Keenan out of the writing that it there. She may be using her maiden name again. Looks like XXissan.
The children entered under her entry are James aged 16 and Bartholomeu aged 13. There is a ditto showing that they also share the name of the Jane immediately above.
The other idea could be that Daniel and John McCluskey/McClousky are the children of the father shown as William (I am not seeing Daniel as the father?) McCluskey and a prior wife to Mary.
I agree with these points.
Jane's surname looked something like O'Brien to me but can't be sure because of lines through writing. Some married or widowed Irish women were known by their maiden names.
Relationship stated was supposed to be to head of household. Therefore Daniel and John were recorded as sons of Wiliam McCluskey. William or whoever gave information may not have known his correct age. If he was the father of the 2 boys he may have been older than stated. He may have married very young.
I read "Bartholomey" which is how he signed his marriage certificate.
Railways were being constructed in Cumberland at the time, initially to carry iron ore, slate and copper from mines.
Bartholomew's father might have gone to work in Scotland or anywhere in Britain.
-
I am looking at Jane's entry and I cannot make Keenan out of the writing that it there. She may be using her maiden name again. Looks like XXissan.
The children entered under her entry are James aged 16 and Bartholomeu aged 13. There is a ditto showing that they also share the name of the Jane immediately above.
The other idea could be that Daniel and John McCluskey/McClousky are the children of the father shown as William (I am not seeing Daniel as the father?) McCluskey and a prior wife to Mary.
I agree with these points.
Jane's surname looked something like O'Brien to me but can't be sure because of lines through writing. Some married or widowed Irish women were known by their maiden names.
Relationship stated was supposed to be to head of household. Therefore Daniel and John were recorded as sons of Wiliam McCluskey. William or whoever gave information may not have known his correct age. If he was the father of the 2 boys he may have been older than stated. He may have married very young.
I read "Bartholomey" which is how he signed his marriage certificate.
Railways were being constructed in Cumberland at the time, initially to carry iron ore, slate and copper from mines.
Bartholomew's father might have gone to work in Scotland or anywhere in Britain.
Bartholomews dad was a soldier according to the records, so I hoped to find him in Carlisle barrocks.
In early doccuments he ideitifies as bartholomey, I did a bit of research on Irish names sometimes the son took the name of the father but it was altered a little, but I don’t think this is the case unless bartholomew was a baby out of wedlock some how. I think he becomes bartholomew in a lot of doccuments due to the English’s spelling possibly accent issue. I always search bartholomew, bartholomy and bartholomus.
I also read that sometimes the man took the woman’s name in Ireland so i really could be looking for a needle in a haystack.
For Daniel and John to be williams even to another wife William would have been about 12 when they were born. Daniel should have been fairly easy to find as the name wasn’t common (I’ve searched Daniel mcclusky & Daniel Keenan) I don’t think he can have got the ages wrong as it’s a big jump from toddler to 12 year old child.
The only clue I have is his sister states she was born in maye Ireland in the 1891 census, I think that means mayo
I’ve gathered a good few pieces of this jigsaw, I just can’t put them together. I go off and work on other areas of my tree but I always come back to this couple
-
For Daniel and John to be williams even to another wife William would have been about 12 when they were born. Daniel should have been fairly easy to find as the name wasn’t common (I’ve searched Daniel mcclusky & Daniel Keenan) I don’t think he can have got the ages wrong as it’s a big jump from toddler to 12 year old child.
That's why I said that William may not have known his real age. Although his age was consistent on later censuses, if those posted by shanreagh were the family. A lot of Irish people didn't know how old they were. William may have been a few years older.
-
For Daniel and John to be williams even to another wife William would have been about 12 when they were born. Daniel should have been fairly easy to find as the name wasn’t common (I’ve searched Daniel mcclusky & Daniel Keenan) I don’t think he can have got the ages wrong as it’s a big jump from toddler to 12 year old child.
That's why I said that William may not have known his real age. Although his age was consistent on later censuses, if those posted by shanreagh were the family. A lot of Irish people didn't know how old they were. William may have been a few years older.
Maybe, if I could find a mention of Daniel in a census or a birth record that could prove it
-
Maybe, if I could find a mention of Daniel in a census or a birth record that could prove it
Have you looked for him as Clusky or Cluskey?
-
Following on from Maiden Stone's post I have looked again at the name for Jane and it does look like O'Brien and it does look as though she is 'Ma'. This name O'Brien or my weird one with Lissan may be maiden names and even though it is more common in Scotland for women to maintain their MS in documents there are numbers in Ireland also. Or it could be another married name for Jane. So perhaps she married the Keenan who was a soldier then after his death she had children with an O'Brien, James aged 16 and Bartholomeu aged 13 and took the name of O'Brien. Or that these children were to another father but took the name of O'Brien for propriety's sake.
The other idea I had was to see if anyone you know has Photoshop so they could work on removing the line especially though Jane's name and see what the original writing was.
The other point is that the family were Irish emigrants being asked for information by, presumably, Scots census takers. The potential for mishearing is high.
-
Following on from Maiden Stone's post I have looked again at the name for Jane and it does look like O'Brien and it does look as though she is 'Ma'. This name O'Brien or my weird one with Lissan may be maiden names and even though it is more common in Scotland for women to maintain their MS in documents there are numbers in Ireland also. Or it could be another married name for Jane. So perhaps she married the Keenan who was a soldier then after his death she had children with an O'Brien, James aged 16 and Bartholomeu aged 13 and took the name of O'Brien. Or that these children were to another father but took the name of O'Brien for propriety's sake.
The other idea I had was to see if anyone you know has Photoshop so they could work on removing the line especially though Jane's name and see what the original writing was.
The other point is that the family were Irish emigrants being asked for information by, presumably, Scots census takers. The potential for mishearing is high.
But then in the following censuses Jane declares Keenan, unless Jane was the 2nd wife and took the Keenan name for some reason. And was only the step mother.
The Carlisle registry office looked at the original document for me they said it looked more like reacon, ansestry has it as kinn and someone else once told me okeanan
-
Hi
Have you searched the forum or looked on the Cumberland board for this family.
There are a large group researching them and many posts from them. I’ve done quite a bit of research too. I don’t have all my info at present to look to answer your question but I bet you will find loads of info on those boards and some will be pleased to hear from you
I will look for some links
More in a minute
Best wishes
Emms :)
-
Hi
Sorry
Not getting on with copying links on my tablet but if you search the forum on Keenan Cockermouth you will get loads starting with some from Charles Keenan, also hyamara and also myself
That group have hoards of info especially the first
Best wishes
Emms
-
Puffin, I meant to say that you have posted other threads on RootsChat about the family. Click on your user profile to see them.
Yes I know, I’ve tried to keep query’s separate especially when I’ve got new info so as not to get confused or go back on things I’ve been able to discount. I didn’t realise that was an issue
It would be helpful if you put links to the other threads so that we can refer back to them . Otherwise people might be searching for information which has already been found.
-
Couldn't agree more MS. Just needs a copied link (reference at top of page).
Also don't forget to always search Roots Chat for other threads on family names you are searching....see comment on other threads relating to Keenan.
Just wondering if you have searched on Co Mayo for the family as you mentioned that a daughter? of Jane was perhaps born there? Put the query on the Co Mayo board with links to the other threads you have sought info on.
-
Are these the same family?
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=806907.0;topicseen
-
Are these the same family?
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=806907.0;topicseen
Thanks, hallmark. Yes. There are other previous threads.
-
Why the doubt about his given name?
See link posted by hallmark's post #30. It has Bartholomew's marriage certificate.
-
Why the doubt about his given name?
See link posted by hallmark's post #30. It has Bartholomew's marriage certificate.
The records office transcribed as James, but the copy certificate is Thomas, I thought it was an original copy until this forum put me right, thanks
-
Hi
Sorry
Not getting on with copying links on my tablet but if you search the forum on Keenan Cockermouth you will get loads starting with some from Charles Keenan, also hyamara and also myself
That group have hoards of info especially the first
Best wishes
Emms
Thanks, I’ve seen these, I don’t think there is a connection, although I am sure there are missing children from the family group unless they married late. Mine seem to have gone to haltwhistle rather than Cockermouth. My tree is in ansestry if you would like to look to see if anything springs out
-
Hi
Sorry
Not that helpful
Just another thought. You have info from military records. It seems very brief compared to some I have for a gggrandfather at this era. Have you double checked there isn’t a fuller record anywhere? I got mine from Kew but I think you have to us3 one of the agencies now. It did give a confirmation of birth place down to a tiny village in zDorset and a better age and details of occupations and where he was discharged and why - Carlisle Castle
I think I actually found a birth for him a couple of days ago after many mysterious years. Not helped by using differing surnames with no reason I can see.!
Good hunting! Best wishes
Emms
-
Hi
Sorry
Not that helpful
Just another thought. You have info from military records. It seems very brief compared to some I have for a gggrandfather at this era. Have you double checked there isn’t a fuller record anywhere? I got mine from Kew but I think you have to us3 one of the agencies now. It did give a confirmation of birth place down to a tiny village in zDorset and a better age and details of occupations and where he was discharged and why - Carlisle Castle
I think I actually found a birth for him a couple of days ago after many mysterious years. Not helped by using differing surnames with no reason I can see.!
Good hunting! Best wishes
Emms
I think my big obstacle is doubt over name, guessed dob, and either way quite a common name, so I need to get more info to narrow down my search, right now for all I know Jane made up here name and was a hooker who made up a fake dad for her illegitimate kids 🤷🏼♀️
I was hoping to confirm his name, maybe dob or where he was from with either baptism records for the kids, early Irish census with the kids or marriage record, so far nothing. I know at somepoint later in life his son was in the work house, which I only found by luck as his surname / first name was muddled maybe they recorded a birthplace. I’m not ready to give up on this section yet
-
Awww the records office told me the workhouse records for the period I’m interested in don’t exist, which is disappointing since the website indicates they exist
-
Hi
Not sure which work house you’re interested in. I’ve used Cockermouth records but not Carlisle
Also you might need the right area branch of Cumbria record office I only found Cockermouth in Whitehaven
I think they may be on line by now
Best wishes
Emms
-
Hi
Not sure which work house you’re interested in. I’ve used Cockermouth records but not Carlisle
Also you might need the right area branch of Cumbria record office I only found Cockermouth in Whitehaven
I think they may be on line by now
Best wishes
Emms
Interesting
Kendal, I was looking for. How did you find out you needed Whitehaven fir Cockermouth?
-
Hi
I knew they weren’t in Carlisle
Also although all the Cumbria record offices have a copy of all the registers on the whole other original records are kept only at the local record office thoughsome have been digitised
So worth visiting locally. Not quite that simple due to for one thing not splitting an archive
When I went to Whitehavenvthe local office for Cockermouth I awash pleased to see the records
The online index should tell you though
Good luck
Emms
-
So, I got a copy of the church record, it definitely states James Keenan as bartholomews dad (where as the certificate states Thomas)
It gives a residence for the dad, I think James Keenan is in Carlisle, but I can’t read Patrick O’Neil’s residence. Plus the marriage certificate states they are both dead
-
It definitely looks like James.
Are you sure that the places are fathers' abodes and not abodes of groom and bride?
PS. Have you not been able to find a marriage of Bartholomew's brother to see what name he put for his father?
-
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=806907.0;topicseen
Reply #1 on the above thread has image of marriage certificate showing father's name was Thomas and "deceased" written under his name.
-
It definitely looks like James.
Are you sure that the places are fathers' abodes and not abodes of groom and bride?
PS. Have you not been able to find a marriage of Bartholomew's brother to see what name he put for his father?
Not conclusively, I’m working on finding the brothers marriage, looks like the sister was married in Ireland so that’s not going to help
Waiting on checking the certificate name as you know that said Thomas, so one of them is the wrong name. Might just re order
Re the fathers abode I’m hoping that might mean they came to britain and died in Britain and they just gave the last known residence as I might be able to get more info there. Rather than the couple just making things up, I think if they didn’t want their fathers to be traceable they would have said Ireland so I have hope
Anyways enough of me rambling
-
The certificates have started to arrive, although I still havent found the children’s 1st marriages to get their certificates in the hope of finding snippets of info, bi I have got James / thomas wofes death certificate which confirms James was her husbands name
I did beleive from the marriage certificate that James was a soldier, but it doesn’t look like soldier to me on this one, can anyone read it?
-
The certificates have started to arrive, although I still havent found the children’s 1st marriages to get their certificates in the hope of finding snippets of info, bi I have got James / thomas wofes death certificate which confirms James was her husbands name
I did beleive from the marriage certificate that James was a soldier, but it doesn’t look like soldier to me on this one, can anyone read it?
Labourer?
Labourer might have been his last known occupation. He might has become too old or unfit for military service or reached the end of the period of years he'd signed up for. First husband of an ancestor of mine was a soldier in Ireland when they married. He'd left army and was a labourer by the time his daughter was born 3 years later. Then he went back into uniform as a postman which was occupation on his death certificate.
The son may have chosen to say soldier rather than labourer at time of his marriage. On the other hand, perhaps James was alive and soldiering at time of the son's wedding.
When was the death cert? Was it later than the son's marriage?
I guess that Thomas may have been a clerical error somewhere along the line by registry office.
Where did you obtain the certificate which had Thomas on?
At least you know what to call him now.
-
I obtained it from the register office and didn’t realise they were transcribed.
I’ve never found James for sure in the uk as his wife / family unit were without him in 1851 when I’ve first found them. In 1858 his son Marrys and states his farther died, In 1861 his wife stayed widow. So I’m guessing he died before 1851, or there is a chance early to mid 1850s but was elsewhere working
-
I obtained it from the register office and didn’t realise they were transcribed.
Was it from GRO?
There is a procedure for pointing out possible errors. You need to provide proof. You would need to ask the local registry office to check which name is on original certificate first.
-
I obtained it from the register office and didn’t realise they were transcribed.
Was it from GRO?
There is a procedure for pointing out possible errors. You need to provide proof. You would need to ask the local registry office to check which name is on original certificate first.
Yes I’ve failed the procedure as I didn’t raise it within 3 months, when I found the parish records so they said I needed to re purchase then complain if the 2nd certificate was incorrect