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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: chris_49 on Saturday 26 January 19 21:12 GMT (UK)
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Here's a puzzler for you. The 1939 register has provided new clues about some of my lines, notably the Ingrams and Vernons of Derby. A lot of relatives turned up who were new to me. Many I found married with families.
An exception is William Vernon 1907 MMN Ingram. He's found in Derby with his widowed mother Florence 1871-1954 and is listed as married, but without a wife. This isn't a mistake - his older brother Harry 1902 is deemed single, but his nephew Charles Alfred Vernon 1917 is there too and also listed as married without a wife, but she - Doris A nee Armes 1919 - is nearby with her parents, perhaps because she had recently lost a baby, they seem to have other children later.
But who was Wiliam's wife? There are a lot of plain William Vernons, but the best fit seems to be to Winifred Vasey, married in 1928 in Derby. They had several Vernon-Vasey children there. She could be the one born Lincoln 1908, or Leeds 1910, or another.
But when I tried to find Winifred Vernon in 1939 I drew a blank. The best I could find was in Kirkby-in-Ashfield, Notts where a Winifred Whitehurst 1909 married and Joseph 1936 both future name Vernon are staying with a Laura Shaw widow, unknown. Indeed these two both die in Derby in 1995 and 1970 respectively, as Vernon, and their DoBs match the 1939 exactly,. No Joseph Whitehurst registration can be found around 1936, but there are two Joseph Vernons - one in Stockton and the other in Derby, MMN Vasey, right quarter birth. (I can't find his siblings in 1939 but they may be redacted.)
The obvious explanation would be that Winifred Whitehurst married a Vernon and got her son to change his name to that of her new husband. But I can find no such marriage. Is it possible that Laura Shaw, head of household, got their names wrong and they were later corrected? Perhaps because they were her Whitehurst relatives?
One Winifred Whitehurst who fits was born the right quarter in 1909 and is with her parents Thomas Augustine and Gertrude Mary nee Furniss in Derby in 1911, though she has a middle name Mary. I thought Gertrude might have later had a relationship with a Vasey, but no - I found her in 1939 in Derby widowed as Whitehurst with her other daughters Irene(ia) and Constance.
it's true that a William Vernon marries a Whitehurst in adjoining Uttoxeter district in 1926, but he's rather young to be my William, she's an Elsie, that marriage seems childless (she didn't die) and it's at Leigh, well west of Uttoxeter town.
Maybe I'm reading too much into all this. I know I should send for that marriage certificate, but I thought I'd collect your thoughts before I waste my money (again!)
Thanks in advance for reading all this. Chris.
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Have you checked the 1939 for any female Vernons in Derbyshire shown as married but without husbands?
It won’t give her maiden name (unless she’s with family) but it would give you a christian name to narrow down a possible marriage
Another possiblity is William’s death - did he leave a will. Died 1970 Derby - birthyear a year out
EDIT
No probate entry
Death for Winifred Vernon 1995 Derby b 15.5.1909 birth June qtr 1909 Islington Winifred Veazey???
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No marriage/death for Winifred Veazey. The Winifred E Veazey who married 1930 was b 1902
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1911 has a 2yr old Winnie Veasey in Rutland b Derbyshire
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The Derbyshire Winnie was b Doris Winifred Veasey Dec qtr 1908
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Death certificate for name of informant - who may be related.
Wife not showing in 1939 because died more recently?
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Thanks for your replies Carole and Chempat.
I hadn't really considered Veasey/Veasey but on reflection that could be pronounced Vazey too. That just widens the list of possibilities! The children are all registered with the MMN Vasey precisely. Yes, I've looked for other Vernons.
Chempat, I don't think William's wife would be redacted 1939 as that would have to be a very recent marriage - there isn't one that fits - but also a young bride over a decade younger than her husband if born 1919 or later.
I didn't think Joseph would leave a will. He died very young, perhaps suddenly, and he never married AFAICS. I'm tired of receiving death certificates that tell you very little!
I forgot to mention that if the Kirkby-in-Ashfield one is my Winifred Vasey, she had a son in December quarter 1939 in Derby (probably the one that died there 1940) so her stay there wasn't very long. I've read though, somewhere, that some evacuations were purely temporary in the panic of that September, many soon drifted back.
I think I'm going to have to bite the bullet and send for that marriage certificate in Derby in 1928. I'd hope to learn at least something from that, unless her father's name is the dreaded blank, and the witnesses might tell me something - if it is my William (and his father should be given as he was alive then). If it's not him I'll just have to die wondering.
Thanks again, Chris.
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Chempat, I don't think William's wife would be redacted 1939 as that would have to be a very recent marriage - there isn't one that fits - but also a young bride over a decade younger than her husband if born 1919 or later.
born a few years (6? 7?) after husband and still alive...... People do live to 105.
OK, probably not, but always worth remembering.
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Looks like Winifred Veazey b Islington Jun qtr 1909 died Islington Mar qtr 1910, aged 0.
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Oh sugar lumps!!
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Found this on FS
Ireland Civil Registration Indexes
Name Winifred Vasey
Event Type Birth
Event Date Apr - Jun 1909
Event Place Swineford, Ireland
Registration Quarter and Year Apr - Jun 1909
Registration District Swineford
Volume Number 4
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There’s one Winifred Vasey whose birth I can’t find but should be c1910 in Derbyshire.
Parents are Walter & Isabel, in Derby by 1911. Marriage should be c1900.
Winifred’s immediately older siblings:
Donald Vasey mmn Stevens, Sep qtr 1905 Rochdale
Mona Vasey mmn Stevens, Dec qtr 1906 Rochdale
Wilfred Vasey mmn Stevens, Dec qtr 1907 Littleborough (died aged 3 in Derby, Mar qtr 1911)
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Found this on FS
Ireland Civil Registration Indexes
Name Winifred Vasey
Event Type Birth
Event Date Apr - Jun 1909
Event Place Swineford, Ireland
Registration Quarter and Year Apr - Jun 1909
Registration District Swineford
Volume Number 4
Wow, that'a quite a find Carole. Sadly she's not on the Irish 1911 - maybe she died, maybe they emigrated.
Vasey is not an Irish name - only a few on that census, almost all in Roscommon and Sligo, which both border east Galway which is where Swinford, formerly Swineford, is.
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Birth of Winifred Vasey, 15 April 1909, Cloonfain
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1909/01609/1645873.pdf
parents Thomas + Mary, nee Connor
Death of Winifred Veasey, 25 Jan 1910, Cloonfain, age 9 months
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1910/05433/4519354.pdf
Family in 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Mayo/Kilbeagh/Cloonfane/740489/
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There’s one Winifred Vasey whose birth I can’t find but should be c1910 in Derbyshire.
Parents are Walter & Isabel, in Derby by 1911. Marriage should be c1900.
Winifred’s immediately older siblings:
Donald Vasey mmn Stevens, Sep qtr 1905 Rochdale
Mona Vasey mmn Stevens, Dec qtr 1906 Rochdale
Wilfred Vasey mmn Stevens, Dec qtr 1907 Littleborough (died aged 3 in Derby, Mar qtr 1911)
I think you've cracked it AVM! Well done!
There's also Leslie Vasey 1915 Derby MMN Stevens. So they must have moved there.
There's no other Vasey-Stevens marriage. In fact there's no such marriage at all but I'm work
ing on that.
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The Derby electoral registers might have been a good place to look.
Free index has various Vernons
King's Mead, 1928-31
Florence Mary Vernon, William Vernon, etc.
(same image number)
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Walter and Isabel Vasey and family were in Ockbrook, Derbyshire (Winifred’s supposed birthplace) by 7 September 1908, when sons Frank (b 19.06.1898) and Harold (b 01.10.1901) were enrolled at Ockbrook Redhill National School. Previous school attended: Rochdale.
The boys were withdrawn from the school on 5 November 1909: “Left village”.
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Sadly, Walter took his own life at the family home in October 1914, whilst Isabel was expecting Leslie.
Leslie died in infancy in 1916.
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The Derby electoral registers might have been a good place to look.
Free index has various Vernons
King's Mead, 1928-31
Florence Mary Vernon, William Vernon, etc.
(same image number)
Where are these Derby electoral registers, Jon? Ancestry doesn't seem to have them.
The Vernons are mostly known (there are a lot of them) but can you see any Vaseys? Or a Winiffred Vernon? (under 30 so not in the 20s).
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List of children:
Harold Vasey, mmn Carter, Dec qtr 1900 King’s Norton
Walter Lawrance Vasey, mmn Carter, Mar qtr 1902 Leeds
Donald Vasey, mmn Carter, Mar qtr 1903 Leeds (died aged 1 in Dewsbury, Dec qtr 1904)
Dorothy Vasey, mmn Carter, Mar qtr 1903 Leeds
Donald Vasey, mmn Stevens, Sep qtr 1905 Rochdale
Mona Vasey, mmn Stevens, Dec qtr 1906 Rochdale
Wilfred Vasey, mmn Stevens, Dec qtr 1907 Littleborough (died aged 3 in Derby, Mar qtr 1911)
Winifred Vasey, c1910
Douglas Vasey, mmn Carter, Dec qtr 1911 Derby
Leslie Vasey, mmn Stevens, Jun qtr 1915 Derby
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List of children:
Harold Vasey, mmn Carter, Dec qtr 1900 King’s Norton
Walter Lawrance Vasey, mmn Carter, Mar qtr 1902 Leeds
Donald Vasey, mmn Carter, Mar qtr 1903 Leeds (died aged 1 in Dewsbury, Dec qtr 1904)
Dorothy Vasey, mmn Carter, Mar qtr 1903 Leeds
Donald Vasey, mmn Stevens, Sep qtr 1905 Rochdale
Mona Vasey, mmn Stevens, Dec qtr 1906 Rochdale
Wilfred Vasey, mmn Stevens, Dec qtr 1907 Littleborough (died aged 3 in Derby, Mar qtr 1911)
Winifred Vasey, c1910
Douglas Vasey, mmn Carter, Dec qtr 1911 Derby
Leslie Vasey, mmn Stevens, Jun qtr 1915 Derby
I'm more confused than ever. Are these two families, or did Walter or Isabel marry twice? I'm struggling to find any marriage for them. I suppose Douglas' birth MMN could be a mistake.
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An online tree has Isabel’s birth name as
Mary Martha Isabel Carter.
She seems to have had a son, Frank Stephens, in 1898 before meeting Walter (see last census). He was Frank Vasey on his school record, as previously mentioned.
The mmns on the Vasey children’s births vary between Carter and Stevens - the latter may have been her previous “married” name, though I can’t see that she was ever lawfully married.
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She seems to have had a son, Frank, in 1898 before meeting Walter (see last census - Frank “Stephens”). He was Frank Vasey on his school record, as previously mentioned.
Frank Stevens, mmn Carter, Jun qtr 1898 Westminster 1a 484.
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An online tree has Isabel’s birth name as Mary Isabel Carter.
She seems to have had a son, Frank Stephens, before meeting Walter (see last census).
The mmns on the Vasey children’s births vary between Carter and Stevens - the latter may have been her previous “married” name, though I can’t see that she was ever lawfully married.
Well thanks again AVM.
As much as you can trust online trees (as far as you can throw them) this looks feasible. It does seem that she never married - I could find nothng. This is comparable with William's parents Charles Allen Vernon and Florence Mary Ingram, who produced ten children together (first as middle name Vernon surname Ingram and then as plain Vernon) but never married that I can find, and her granddaughter Ivy Vernon who had at most two children with Edward Cox, then another five with Christopher Raisin before actually marrying him. I could go on.
None of this proves that it's my William Vernon who married Winifred Vasey. I'll have to send for the cert.
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An online tree has Isabel’s birth name as Mary Martha Isabel Carter.
I’ve edited to correct her name.
Martha Isabel Carter was admitted to Westminster Union Workhouse on 15 June 1898, and discharged “to sister Faith” along with her newborn son Frank Carter on 10 August 1898.
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Born as Martha Isabella Carter, Dec qtr 1873 Stockton.
There’s a Police Gazette notice for Martha Isabella Carter, alias Sissie Stevens, with a male child, about 3m old, wanted for the theft of a child’s 4-wheel mailcart in Mablethorpe, Lincs on 26 August 1898.
Worth looking at (on Ancestry) for her physical description if this family turns out to be relevant. She seems to have been a music hall singer with a history of obtaining money from clergymen under false pretences.
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This is all fascinating! She isn't my direct relative but now I want her to be!
Though if her daughter did marry my relative then they probably unremarkable lives.
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I find this branch of my tree interesting because of the contrasts. For instance Florence Mary Vernon nee Ingram had far more descendants than all her 20-odd surviving siblings and cousins put together. Her 7 surviving children (if you include the still doubtfully-married Wiliam) 6 of whom produced at least 45 grandchildren and seemingly well over 100 great grandchildren (that's just the ones that can be found.) This would be unremarkable in the C19th, but in the 20th? Ivy had 14 altogether. My first thought was - are they Catholics? but no, Anglican marriages.
What's true is that in 1939 the less fecund Ingrams were all in terraced streets west of the main railway line, most about half way out, but the Vernons were mostly in the then newish council estates to the northeast (a couple were ih the inner city). Perhaps they got priority because their families were so big?
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There appears to have been a lot of tragedy in the Vasey family according to newspaper reports.
In July 1913 Donald Vasey, the 8 year old son of Walter Vasey, colliery proper of Lodge Lane, died suddenly during the night. The cause of death was said to be valvular disease of the heart. His mother Isabel is mentioned in the article.
The father, Walter Vasey, took his own life in October 1914 by hanging himself in the family home at 25 Parker Street, Derby. His young daughter Dorothy discovered him.
In April 1916 Leslie Vasey, the 13 month old son of Isabel Vasey, was burned to death in the family home at House 3, Court 4, Full Street, Derby. The report also mentions her 3 year old son Sidney?
Added: Sorry avm, I see you already mentioned Walter's suicide and Leslie's death earlier.
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Thanks Jool. If there's a link between these events, it's poverty.
I've no record of Sidney. - another one not registered?
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Where are these Derby electoral registers, Jon? Ancestry doesn't seem to have them.
They are on findmypast, but I haven't actually seen them yet (only the index)
For most places that have coverage they go to 1931 (a few places only in 1932)
Really we needed a couple more years!
But William is probably in them, possibly still with mother Florence
John
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I've no record of Sidney. - another one not registered?
Sydney Vasey was born 27 Nov 1912 per death reg (1982 Derby) or 28 Nov 1913 per 1939. The latter leads you to his mother Martha I now “Brown”.
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Martha Isabella Brown died aged 77 in Derby, Mar qtr 1951.
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Thanks everybody. I suppose I need to ask if anyone witth FindMyPast can look up some Derby electoral registers for me. Or are those not permitted, like the 1911 and 1939?
In case it's allowed, I'm looking for Charles A Vernon and his wife Florence M, I think their sons Harry and William will be with them some of the time. By 1939 they were on Bridge Street. Winifred, if she's the one, will only show after the voting age for women was lowered to 21 in 1928. Others who might show are Charles W and Mary, and George and Mary A. The daughters all married before they got the vote!
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1920 88 Bridge Street
Charles Alan
Florence Mary
Charles William
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1930 & 1929
Charles Allan V.
Florence Mary V.
William V.
Harry V.
Fanny Bailey
Abraham Bailey
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1926 & 1925
Charles Allan
Florence Mary
Arthur Bailey
Harry Vernon
George Vernon
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As early as 1911 Charles is at the same address 88 Bridge Street
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Thanks very much! Fanny Bailey was one of their married daughters. I was hoping to find Winifred but if she's who she think she is, she wouldn't turn 21 until during 1930.
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1920 88 Bridge Street
Charles Alan
Florence Mary
Charles William
Is Charles William your William or some other relation.
In 1931 there is a Charles William Vernon and Wife Mary at 53 Brook Street.
But same year William is also listed with Charles Allan, Florence Mary, Harry and Abraham and Fanny Bailey in Bridge Street.
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Unfortunately that’s it, othing after 1931
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Yes Charles William is the eldest son of Charles Allen and Florence. His eldest son is Charles Alfred who is the one who is with Florence, Harry and William on the 1939. Charles W is elsewhere with his second wife Mary with 9 of their children (the oldest married already) some redacted but order of listing fits.
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Just incase this is important
From 1926 to 1931 there is a Winifred Alfreida /Elfreda Vernon Wife Frederick Vernon at 173 Nottingham Road, Derwent Ward.
(2 spellings of Elfreda)
Oh, I see them in 1939. Completely separate :)
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Yes they married in 1926 she a Johnson. She should have been at least 28 to have the vote in 1926 - she was born 1899 so a little white lie?
To recap, I'm only interested in a William Vernon married to a Winifred.
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List of children:
Harold Vasey, mmn Carter, Dec qtr 1900 King’s Norton
Walter Lawrance Vasey, mmn Carter, Mar qtr 1902 Leeds
Donald Vasey, mmn Carter, Mar qtr 1903 Leeds (died aged 1 in Dewsbury, Dec qtr 1904)
Dorothy Vasey, mmn Carter, Mar qtr 1903 Leeds
Donald Vasey, mmn Stevens, Sep qtr 1905 Rochdale
Mona Vasey, mmn Stevens, Dec qtr 1906 Rochdale
Wilfred Vasey, mmn Stevens, Dec qtr 1907 Littleborough (died aged 3 in Derby, Mar qtr 1911)
Winifred Vasey, c1910
Douglas Vasey, mmn Carter, Dec qtr 1911 Derby
Leslie Vasey, mmn Stevens, Jun qtr 1915 Derby
I'm more confused than ever. Are these two families, or did Walter or Isabel marry twice? I'm struggling to find any marriage for them. I suppose Douglas' birth MMN could be a mistake.
In a newspaper article regarding the death of her son Leslie in April 1916, Isabel claimed she was the mother of 9 children, with her eldest son in the R.A.M.C.
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Frank was the one in the R.A.M.C. in 1916 - his military record (as Frank Stevens) is online.
Isabel seems to have had 12 children in all, of whom 3 (Donald b 1903, Donald b 1905 and Wilfred b 1907) had died before Leslie.
So she was a mother of 9 living children immediately before the death of Leslie.
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Good research avm, you have been able to confirm what Isabel said 103 years ago :)
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I have to know. I've sent for that marriage certificate (must beat that 16th Feb price hike).
I'll let you know what I found out. If it's NOT my William Vernon who marries Winifred Vasey then I must start again. Thanks to everyone who helped.
As to the non-registration of Winifred and one of her brothers, these do happen in the C20th. Fanny (Vernon) Bailey has a son William C born 1926, on the 1939, yet I can find no registration. (Unlikely outside England I would think: his dad was "refuse collector".) All his known siblings found. It would surely have caused difficulties later in life not to be able to produce a birth certificate?
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There’s one Winifred Vasey whose birth I can’t find but should be c1910 in Derbyshire.
Parents are Walter & Isabel, in Derby by 1911. Marriage should be c1900.
Winifred’s immediately older siblings:
Donald Vasey mmn Stevens, Sep qtr 1905 Rochdale
Mona Vasey mmn Stevens, Dec qtr 1906 Rochdale
Wilfred Vasey mmn Stevens, Dec qtr 1907 Littleborough (died aged 3 in Derby, Mar qtr 1911)
Thanks again for this AVM. I know you're not allowed to search the 1911, but the reason I didn't find her was that her age was incorrectly transcribed as 4 (born a long way from her supposed twin in Rochdale!) rather than 1.
If she was born Ockbrook that would presumably have been before the family left the village in November 1909. So her birth should be registered in the last three quarters of that year. I looked for any variant of Vasey and any Winifred born in the Shardlow district where Ockbrook is. Nothing!
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Marriage certificate arrived!
24th March 1928. Derby RO. William Vernon 21 years, bachelor, general labourer, 88 Bridge Street Derby, father Charles Allen Vernon, butcher, marries Winifred Vasey, 19 years Spinster, shoe packer, 19 St helen's Street, Derby, father Walter Vasey (deceased) Colliery Deputy. Witnesses George Vernon, Frank Stevens, Mary Vasey.
This is my family. The proof is about as good as it gets - not only the fathers, but William at the same address as in 1911 and 1939, Charles known to be alive, Walter known to be dead, witnesses known - George is William's brother, Frank Stevens is Winifred's half brother, and Mary Vasey is not known yet but may be a sister-in-law.
It's also useful to have the exact ages (not a given for those "of full age"). William's age matches his birth and the 1939, and Winifred's matches that 1911 record in Derby (born Ockbrook) and also that record in Kirkby-in-Ashfield in 1939 with son Joseph 1936. I suspect this is an evacuation and that their landlady was confused about their surname. Winifred doesn't have a remarriage date (which would be usual) to fit the name change.
Joseph had three older siblings but I can't find them in 1939, I suspect they are redacted somewhere - evacuees? He has an odd entry by him on that register - 13/5/49 NR 230/RAA. Anybody have any clue what this means? He'd be coming up to 13.
Once again, thanks very much to everybody who helped.
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(Joseph) has an odd entry by him on that register - 13/5/49 NR 230/RAA. Anybody have any clue what this means? He'd be coming up to 13.
Once again, thanks very much to everybody who helped.
Rosie partly answered this conundrum on the "Green Ink" thread - this is something to do with the NHS and the code RAA places Joseph in Derby borough in 1949. So that makes him even more likely to be my relative.