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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: xpress4 on Saturday 26 January 19 23:56 GMT (UK)
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Hi All,
I have a cluster of people, listed in the Tithe Applotment Books, living near each other. I believe their are mine. Any tips on what to do with this information? Is there more to glean than meets the eye in this record or is it simply 'what it is'? The area is Dysartbeagh, just outside of Mountrath, in Queens County.
Would there be a minimum age a person would be listed? I'd imagine someone could be quite young to work land. Any rules about that back then? I ask as I think this group is a father and a group of sons.
I can't find them in Dysartbeagh in the Griffith's Valuation records.
Thanks for any tips!
Brenda
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Did you read the explanation at the start of the data base
http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/home.jsp
I think it's more likely these men are brothers or a mix of brothers uncles cousins. Names constantly repeat in famlies so it's difficult to tell one generation from the next or even one family group from relations.
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Thanks for your reply Sinann.
I had read the explanation, but wasn't sure if there was a way to view the location and then find out if the same people were in the same location going forward.
Also just wondering about anything else that might indicate relationship; if even a hint of what was likely. Like you mentioned, likely brothers etc. than father and sons. Two of the men have the same number; 49 and the others only a few numbers off. I'm assuming the number is parcel of land and the two men sharing the same number were working the same plot of land? I think I'm just wishful thinking that there are more clues in it than there are :)
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Difficult to comment when we can't see the record.
Is this it
http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/reels/tab//004587420/004587420_00386.pdf
http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/reels/tab//004587420/004587420_00387.pdf
I always thought when they are on the same plot the two names are listed beside each other like number 52
but I see what you mean about number 49, it's 20 perch for each.
Farms did get divided up between sons, resulting in smaller and smaller farms each generation, this was one of the reasons people became so dependant on potatoes as it was the only crop that would feed a family from a small patch of land. After the famine the land was passed to one son, which kept the emigration going long past the famine as the other children had to find work.
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That's it! I see what you mean about the same line. Wonder if there is any distinction between the two types of entries.
That's an interesting bit about it being passed to one son.
Last question, is there any way to see into the future or past on this in some other record and see who was on the land before or after?
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I was trying to find a site that gives a bit more on how to understand the Applotment books but they all say much the same, that it's a basic list of land holders, no indication that there is any thing more to learn.
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Thank you Sinann :)
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Last question, is there any way to see into the future or past on this in some other record and see who was on the land before or after?
Not really as far as I know
There are the memorials but they are the land owners, see this thread
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=805616.0
Otherwise between the Applotments and Griffith's only if the landlords estate records survive.
The Tool kit is always worth checking for stuff like this
https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/Irish-genealogy-search.html
Fingers crossed someone will know of something else.
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I always forget about the tool kit! Thanks again for that.
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Personally, I think you gain a lot.
- The size of the holding (farm), combined with the quality of the land, tells you much about their social standing and about their life in general.
- Landlord is frequently specified, which can lead to rental/estate info, Registry of Deeds, etc.
- When combined with information from parish registers, can greatly aid in reconstructing who is who.
- Combined with later Griffith's valuation, and subsequent "rates books", can often trace the history of a particular plot of land (farm) over a period of over 100 years.
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Personally, I think you gain a lot.
- The size of the holding (farm), combined with the quality of the land, tells you much about their social standing and about their life in general.
- Landlord is frequently specified, which can lead to rental/estate info, Registry of Deeds, etc.
- When combined with information from parish registers, can greatly aid in reconstructing who is who.
- Combined with later Griffith's valuation, and subsequent "rates books", can often trace the history of a particular plot of land (farm) over a period of over 100 years. Of course, this will often be the succession to one of your family farms.
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I find the Tithe books can be extremely useful when looking at a whole townland rather than one particular individual, especially if many of the householders have the same surname.
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I'm just marking this thread because of the useful contributions. Thanks to everyone.
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I can't find them in Dysartbeagh in the Griffith's Valuation records.
Thanks for any tips!
Brenda
Did you check all the surrounding townlands as well? The townland boundaries used for the tythe valuation were not always the same as those generated later by the OSI. So, one can come across situations such one i know of, of a family having been said to be from townland X for literally over 200 years, and appearing as such on wills, headstones, and tythe valuation - but on Griffith's and census, they were "officially" in another townland altogther....
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Hi Wexflyer,
Good point! Well with a name like Moore it is a bit tough. I would have assumed it would be Mountrath but no luck. Fenton/Finton is the most unique of the original group and I find two of them about 16 miles away +/-. Not sure if these are the correct Fenton/Finton or not and John Moore...well that's anyone's guess. This common surname is a killer :( And since these men would have been born before the parish registers online I might be out of luck and at the end of my road. The few parish records applicable are full of John, Finton, and a few Denis'. And the family being right on the edge (some born before the first entry and some after) it's hard to connect these dots. Hard to say who was who. Was trying hard to do the "cluster genealogy" approach but it is again....those names...
Thanks!
Brenda
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Don't forget the spelling of Finton/Fentan as Fintan.
I found this reference to maps drawn for Earl of Mountrath in 1730s.
https://www.tcd.ie/library/manuscripts/blog/2016/09/thomas-molands-1730-maps-for-the-earl-of-mountrath/
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This is terrific, thank you! Coincidentally, the majority of of my ancestors worked for the Ordnance Survey. My 3x grandfather, Denis Moore, was with them for 41 years during the 6" Survey through Ireland, Scotland and England and my other 3x grandfather, James Sandford, was with them for 27 years! Does make it difficult to trace though as they moved around so much :)