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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: russell12 on Sunday 27 January 19 18:08 GMT (UK)
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Hello everyone,
Since I’ve finished most my research on all my direct ancestors (I decided to stop at the 18th century since the tree was getting out of hand and too complex), I thought I’d focus on the indirect ancestors and see what interesting people I'd find;
I’ve been looking for aaaages for a death record - or some kind of information on a criminal ancestor who was sentenced to 7 years Penal servitude.
Name - George Bennett, alias 'Henry Simpson' or 'George Simpson'
Born on October 6th 1832 - though this is often listed as 1833, and for some reason he lists his age as being 23 on his criminal record (??)... though he clearly looks his age (27), and he lies about being a Roman Catholic ???
Born and Lived in Bedmont (for some reason they spelt Bedmond with a 't' back then) Hertfordshire
He had a daughter ‘Phoebe Eliza Bennett’ (named after his mother ‘Phoebe’) and I presume his wife was called ‘Eliza’ though I have found no marriage certificate**! Likewise I haven’t found any more info on his daughter - I did find a burial record for a ‘Phoebe Bennett**’ for 1861 however (he wasn’t there for the birth, christening or the death since he was always constantly in prison for poaching offences).
** You will find a marriage record for a George and Eliza Bennett around 1856 - however these are not the same people since these two were still were still having children in the 1860s - when George was serving his 7 year sentence.
**This record would not have been for his mother Phoebe since she re-married to 'David Burridge' - whom seemed to have some problems with alcohol and getting into fights with other members of the family :-\
In 1860 he is arrested with Henry Lee and sentenced to 2 years, 1 year later there is another trial regarding burglary and housebreaking to which he is then sentenced to another 7 years. On Henry Lee’s record there is info on the date he was released and where (to Milbank) but for Bennett there is no such info??
Which leads me to my question - what happened?
My direct ancestor ‘James Bennett’ eventually moved to Hambleden in Oxfordshire - but it doesn’t appear that his brother George followed suit.
After being released from a 4 year sentence for night poaching in 1859 he is advised from the local constabulary to ‘quit the country’ (I can't find the article to screenshot right now but when I do I'll post it) - and in 1860 for his trial he apparently bought tickets to the ‘Cape of Goodhope’ (which he did do - but used them as a ploy to distract the police - getting off the train at Watford and then walking back up to Kings Langley to meet with Henry Lee!!).
http://apps.bedford.gov.uk/grd/detail.aspx?id=8 - initial 2 year sentence
http://apps.bedford.gov.uk/grd/detail.aspx?id=23574 - 7 years after re-trial but no release date
He very often used the alias of ‘Simpson’ - he uses it twice infact! Once in 1853 for Highway Robbery he names himself as ‘George Simpson’ and then again in 1860 he refers to himself as ‘Henry Simpson’, so its possible that after leaving prison he may have started living under a new alias.
^ Listed as George Simpson - he actually lodged with Thomas Gulston and Hawkins.
^ When arrested in 1860 outside the church
http://bedsarchives.bedford.gov.uk/CommunityArchives/Luton/EstablishedChurchinLuton/ThievesAtSaintMarys.aspx
He could have immigrated - (highly likely after being urged by the police before to do so and having his mugshot distributed to Gaols around the country) or he died in prison ???
^ His criminal record - the age and religion are both WRONG, but lists the highway robbery crime for 1853 in case there was any doubt it being the same person.
So - any help on this 'brickwall' would be great! It would be great to finally solve this mystery :) and then I can move on with the other 200 people on my tree :-[ ;D
Also - apologies on how bloomin long this post is - crikey!
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Hmm, rather a lot to take in isn't it! :o
For the moment can you tell me when and where his daughter Phoebe was born?
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She was born in Bedmont, Hertfordshire (listed on the birth record as St. Albans) and christened on Nov. 30 1856.
EDIT: I also found a burial for an 'Eliza Ann Bennett' in St. Albans for July 10th 1857 - however I cannot be sure it is the mother since Phoebe's birth record doesn't list her mothers full name only 'Eliza'.
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So is this Phoebe's birth record then?
BENNETT, PHOEBE ELIZA TAYLOR
GRO Reference: 1856 S Quarter in WATFORD UNION Volume 03A Page 273
Mother's maiden name is Taylor.
I assume you have mother and daughter on census records somewhere?
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Ohh that's interesting! I haven't found any household census' for the two (I mostly use 'Family Search' though, so there may be records elsewhere I haven't found)
Here is the birth record I found on Family Search (unfortunately there is no image available):
(https://i.ibb.co/7GKdjRB/phoebe-birth.png)
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Probably a coincidence, but just in case:
Fremantle prison records
George BENNETT Convict number 6506
arrived 31 Dec 1862 aboard the York
Aged 30
Died 15 Mar 1885 at York. He was married and a butcher by trade, recorded as semiliterate
Sentenced in 1861 to 7 years at Hertford, for Burglary
Had previous convicitons
Ticket Leave Date: 20 Jan 1864
Comments: General servant, self-employed as labourer 30 Jun 1866-10 Dec 1866, wood cutter
Bev
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Probably a coincidence, but just in case:
Fremantle prison records
George BENNETT Convict number 6506
arrived 31 Dec 1862 aboard the York
Aged 30
Died 15 Mar 1885 at York. He was married and a butcher by trade, recorded as semiliterate
(He lists his occupation as a Butcher on his criminal record as well but I suppose this is more 'tongue-in-cheek' since he was arrested for poaching so many times)
Sentenced in 1861 to 7 years at Hertford, for Burglary
Had previous convictions
Ticket Leave Date: 20 Jan 1864
Comments: General servant, self-employed as labourer 30 Jun 1866-10 Dec 1866, wood cutter
Bev
Thank you for your response!
I've coloured everything that matches to George's description in Green and it sounds pretty promising :o, do you know what the 'Ship York' was for? and where it was going? I'm very tempted to confirm this might be him!
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The York was the convict ship sailing from England to Australia.
https://convictrecords.com.au/ships/york/1862
George Bennett, one of 300 convicts transported on the York, 07 October 1862
Hertford General Quarter Sessions
Bev
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If this is your man he didn't change his ways much.
12 October 1878,
Eastern districts Chronicle (York, Western Australia)
GEORGE BENNETT was charged by P.C. Eaton with being drunk and disorderly. Fined 5s or seven days. For using obscene or profane language he was fined a further 10s.
Bev
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Thanks Bev! I think you may have solved the puzzle :D Since I can't find anything on him in England.
With that being said the cells at Fremantle Prison look horrid!
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/11/21/235BFEA100000578-2844063-image-7_1416574111052.jpg)
^ Recreation of an 1860s cell
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Good find Bev. The death date mentioned, would that have been in Australia?
Russell - The original of the baptism record states what you found on Family Search. Baptised on 30th November 1856, parents George and Eliza Bennett of Bedmont, A.L. (Abbots Langley), George is a labourer.
You may wish to consider getting Pheobe's birth cert.
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Good find Bev. The death date mentioned, would that have been in Australia?
Yes, you can find a very brief death notice on Trove.
Bev
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There is this death record for a Phoebe but not too sure if it is your Phoebe
BENNETT, PHOEBE Age 8
GRO Reference: 1861 D Quarter in SAINT ALBANS Volume 03A Page 185
Your Phoebe would have been five in 1861 so not sure of this one.
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Good find Bev. The death date mentioned, would that have been in Australia?
Russell - The original of the baptism record states what you found on Family Search. Baptised on 30th November 1856, parents George and Eliza Bennett of Bedmont, A.L. (Abbots Langley), George is a labourer.
You may wish to consider getting Pheobe's birth cert.
Thank you for your response (and thanks again to Bev!! :D),
Does this confirm 'Eliza Taylor as the mother? Unfortunately I can't find any images of the birth certificate anywhere; Family search does provide this information
No image available
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Indexing Project (Batch) Number C07200-2
System Origin England-ODM
GS Film number 991387
There are two records for Phoebe (both the same date, place and parents just different sources I presume?):
Indexing Project (Batch) Number I03368-0
System Origin England-EASy
GS Film number 1537804
Reference ID item 1 p 38
I don't know if any of this info might help?
EDIT: I think the 8 year old Phoebe death record could be the same one I found on family search
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You won't find any images of an actual birth certificate. If you want to know details from a birth certificate you will have to buy it.
You can get a pdf of the cert for £6 or pay £9.25 for a paper certificate.
If it was me I would be getting a pdf, then if the father isn't George you won't have spent too much.
The cost of getting certs and pdfs is going up on 16 February so if you are going to get one, do so pdq.
Quote from Selina in the Common Room section:-
"Prices of certificates from the GRO will increase on 16 February 2019.
£9.25 certs will be £11.
PDF copies to increase by £1 to £7."
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You won't find any images of an actual birth certificate. If you want to know details from a birth certificate you will have to buy it.
You can get a pdf of the cert for £6 or pay £9.25 for a paper certificate.
If it was me I would be getting a pdf, then if the father isn't George you won't have spent too much.
The cost of getting certs and pdfs is going up on 16 February so if you are going to get one, do so pdq.
Quote from Selina in the Common Room section:-
"Prices of certificates from the GRO will increase on 16 February 2019.
£9.25 certs will be £11.
PDF copies to increase by £1 to £7."
Alrighty I'll have a look :) I just need to register with them first, do you get the pdf straightaway after you've paid?
One last question (sorry to be a pain) - but is there a burial place for George? Or was it a paupers grave?
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The newspaper just says 'On Sunday morning last a man named George Bennett died at the York Hospital.'
Eastern Districts Chronicle, 21st March 1885.
Bev
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No you won't get a pdf straight away. They will give you an estimated date. A pdf is usually quicker to arrive than a certificate.
No idea about George. Perhaps Bev can tell you what the death notice said and where that was.
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Ah I see you have provided the info Bev.
What area did the Eastern Districts Chronicle cover? Are we looking at New South Wales or further down or what?
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The newspaper just says 'On Sunday morning last a man named George Bennett died at the York Hospital.'
Eastern Districts Chronicle, 21st March 1885.
Bev
I'm going to guess he was buried in a paupers grave, since I can't find an official death record or grave marker... quite a miserable life he led!
Anyhow I'm going to order those pdf birth certificates (apparently they take 4 days to dispatch) and when they arrive I'll update everyone!
Thank you Bev and Girl Guide for all your help :)
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Ah I see you have provided the info Bev.
What area did the Eastern Districts Chronicle cover? Are we looking at New South Wales or further down or what?
No, as mentioned, he was in Fremantle prison and York is a district of Western Australia.
His death was registered, if interested enough you could get a copy certificate.
Bennett Geo
55
Father Unknown
Mother Unknown
Place of birth Unknown
Registration no. 13086
Year 1885
https://bdm.justice.wa.gov.au/_apps/pioneersindex/default.aspx
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Ah I see you have provided the info Bev.
What area did the Eastern Districts Chronicle cover? Are we looking at New South Wales or further down or what?
No, as mentioned, he was in Fremantle prison and York is a district of Western Australia.
His death was registered, if interested enough you could get a copy certificate.
Bennett Geo
55
Father Unknown
Mother Unknown
Place of birth Unknown
Registration no. 13086
Year 1885
https://bdm.justice.wa.gov.au/_apps/pioneersindex/default.aspx
I found it, thanks for linking it to me - I don't know if there'd be any point in buying the certificate... unless it listed the parents names and place of birth (as then I could confirm it was him), which I don't think it does.
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No, unfortunately it looks as if nobody knew anything about him.
Bev
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A quick question
Were there any prison sentences that had a certain amount of openness
Could he have had conjugal visits ..or could his wife have had babies while he was in prison which would be registerd as his because the werent divorced
Id double check that marriage if i were you especially if there are no other candidates
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Which marriage are you referring to?
If he was transported, his wife wouldn't have gone with him, but he would still be officially 'married'.
There are no records of him marrying in W.A.
Bev
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I see that George is in prison in the 1851 census. Birthplace is given as Abbots Langley, Herts so it has to be him.
Seems to have been a busy boy in the crime department. ::)
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I see that George is in prison in the 1851 census. Birthplace is given as Abbots Langley, Herts so it has to be him.
Seems to have been a busy boy in the crime department. ::)
33 crimes in total (and those are just the ones he got caught for!) - starting at 13 years old... I've managed to find most the articles for each crime (I'll post a few here in case you are interested);
(https://i.ibb.co/C97wbcL/500005-276560wge5v16f0b2ss24l.jpg)
^ 1845, William Vine married Hannah Atkins (cousin to both James and George) and was fined numerous times for assaulting his wife (they were described as being 'hopelessly poor' and faced eviction from their cottage). There was a news article on an argument between George and James' stepfather 'David Burridge' and William Vine over money and children.
(https://i.ibb.co/9vhdMw0/riot-at-bedmond.jpg)
This is the article for the 'riot in a beerhouse' - it seems the location 'the cross keys' was some sort of criminal den since every person whom I've researched from this place has been involved in either poaching, burglary or some form of assault (one guy; George Dyer was arrested for cruelty to a cat :-[ ). Thomas Trapp (a shoemaker and the same person to give evidence against George in his trial) was also related to the family (another cousin) lived on 'snatch up alley'... the name really says it all in this case. The man 'Thomas Sherfield' with whom George fought with had a son 'Amos Sherfield':
(https://i.ibb.co/dP0sfHT/amos.png)
^ I know this isn't connected to my family but I just had to share this story, it really broke my heart reading it. Overall not a very pleasant bunch.
(https://i.ibb.co/bPvjftP/poaching-with-james.jpg)
Here is another instance at the 'cross keys' ^ I've tried to find where exactly the pub was located and who owned it but to no avail... it would still be interesting to know however.
Regarding the marriage - it took place in Hitchin, and they were still having children together in 1867 - so definitely not them!
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I was referring to the 1856 marriage of A george Bennet to Hannah * Eliza
Cited in first post
*Sorry i must have missed the date of transportation i hadnt realised the first crimes were in England as towns often have same names in Australia
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I was referring to the 1856 marriage of A george Bennet to Hannah * Eliza
Cited in first post
*Sorry i must have missed the date of transportation i hadnt realised the first crimes were in England as towns often have same names in Australia
I'll have just one last look at the Eliza/George 1856 marriage in Hitchin - just to be sure! Since Phoebe was born the same year - it would make sense if it was them. Whats the likelihoods that they didn't marry? I've researched all of the other cross keys pub 'bums' (his inner circle) and surprisingly they all attended church regularly and got married... so I don't know why George wouldn't have ??? would the Church (of England) have christened Phoebe if she was a 'bastard' child?
EDIT: Sooo - Girl Guide suggested that 'Eliza Taylor' was the wife of George Bennett - but (!) - I've found a marriage record for Eliza Taylor (I didn't know her maiden name until now so that helps with further research) and his brother James instead...
(The father was also called George Bennett in case your wondering why the name is the same)
So unless James married his brothers 'girl friend' (which would be a bit odd if you asked me) - Eliza Taylor can't be the mother of Phoebe!
^ Perhaps she didn't die as a child? Since James and his family moved to Oxfordshire? She would have been 27 if she married in 1883 - a bit late in life for a Victorian woman but not out of the question. Not sure if 'Bennett' is listed as the maiden or married surname though...
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Looks like this Phoebe married a Herbert Brundle
Marriages Sep 1883
BENNETT Phoebe Eliza Henley 3a 991
BRUNDLE Herbert James Henley 3a 991
First child
BRUNDLE, HERBERT GEORGE BENNETT
GRO Reference: 1884 S Quarter in WATFORD Volume 03A Page 549
1891 census Glenthorne Road, Hammersmith, Fulham, London & Middlesex - Herbert, Phoebe and three sons.
Registration district Fulham
Archive reference RG12
Piece number 38
Folio 99
Page 50
1901 census has the addition of two daughters and the 1911 shows Phoebe's place of birth as Abbots Langley, Herts.
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Looks like this Phoebe married a Herbert Brundle
Marriages Sep 1883
BENNETT Phoebe Eliza Henley 3a 991
BRUNDLE Herbert James Henley 3a 991
First child
BRUNDLE, HERBERT GEORGE BENNETT
GRO Reference: 1884 S Quarter in WATFORD Volume 03A Page 549
1891 census Glenthorne Road, Hammersmith, Fulham, London & Middlesex - Herbert, Phoebe and three sons.
Registration district Fulham
Archive reference RG12
Piece number 38
Folio 99
Page 50
Am I correct in reading one of her sons was named 'George'? (not sure why she would do that since he was such a dead beat dad!) Or is that simply listing the name of her father? Either way I'd say that more enough confirms this is the same Phoebe - thanks for finding this :)
EDIT: The daughter Edith is listed as an 'apprentice pianoforte' what the devil is that?? How on earth did they get the money for music lessons ???
Anyhow I filled in the children for Phoebe which I think - leaves this 'mystery' - solved! (I won't bother researching any further then them), Thanks everyone so much for all the help :D
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Hi,
I don't know if you've seen it but just for interest, in 1939 Edith is a Pianoforte Key Busher. I think this is tuning or repairing pianos. Gaisford street was in Kentish town which seems to have had a lot of piano makers. I wonder if "pianoforte apprentice" in 1911 meant she was learning to make pianofortes rather than play them :-\
Regards,
Daisy
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Hi,
I don't know if you've seen it but just for interest, in 1939 Edith is a Pianoforte Key Busher. I think this is tuning or repairing pianos. Gaisford street was in Kentish town which seems to have had a lot of piano makers. I wonder if "pianoforte apprentice" in 1911 meant she was learning to make pianofortes rather than play them :-\
Regards,
Daisy
Thanks for your response,
I think your right - in that she must have been learning how to make them rather then play.
Do you know what kind of 'person' this job attracted? e.g. well educated? the impoverished etc.
I'm just interested as I've never heard of a 'Pianoforte Key Busher' before! :D
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Hi,
She could be a factory worker. I found these searching Google for "piano bushing" rather than busher, that give more results than pianoforte busher :)
https://londonist.com/london/history/kentish-town-centre-of-the-universe-for-pianos
and a film of a German piano being made in 1926,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfemAvrupJ4
In 1939 the people living with her have the following occupations,
Cinema Usherettes
Alloy Metal Engineer
(wife) Unpaid Domestic Duties
Dental Assistant Sales Women
Office Cleaning General Post Office
Cook Canteen
Hope this helps :)
Daisy
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Hi,
I came across this forum whilst researching my own family history.
It's been really interesting to read all the post and information.
Alfred Edward Brundle was my great grandfather and the son of Herbert James Brundle and Phoebe Eliza Bennett.
Alfred's was born in 1889 when the couple lived at No. 4 Bingfield Street in Islington.
At the time of Birth Herbert's occupation was listed as Anatomical Assistant.
Does anyone have any ideas what that could be?
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Hi,
She could be a factory worker. I found these searching Google for "piano bushing" rather than busher, that give more results than pianoforte busher :)
https://londonist.com/london/history/kentish-town-centre-of-the-universe-for-pianos
and a film of a German piano being made in 1926,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfemAvrupJ4
In 1939 the people living with her have the following occupations,
Cinema Usherettes
Alloy Metal Engineer
(wife) Unpaid Domestic Duties
Dental Assistant Sales Women
Office Cleaning General Post Office
Cook Canteen
Hope this helps :)
Daisy
Hi Daisy,
Your post is actually very helpful!
My Great Grandfather was Alfred Edward Brundle one of Phoebe's and Herbert's children.
He married a Mary Elisabeth Murphy and they had only one child. My Grandmother Winifred Gladys Brundle. When Winifred was only 6 months old her mother died of tuberculosis. As she was an only child I often wondered about her upbringing. Edith Helena Brundle would have been her aunt.
Based on the fact that I can find no record of Edith ever getting married or having children I suspect that she might have been involved in bringing up my Grandmother.
This links into the marriage certificate when my Grandmother got married in 1946 as one of the witnesses is E H Brundle.
I also know that in 1945 my Grandmothers occupation was listed as Cinema Usherette which suggests that she may have lived with her aunt at the time.
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Hi Russell
The alias probably means nothing more sinister than
his dad died and his mum remarried a Mr Simpson.
The Henry might be his middle name or the name given him by his step-father.
May be step brother or step dad's name was George?
Also this might be why he did not know his birth year.
Look for death of his dad and mum's remarriage
or death of both parents and an informal adoption.
Or alternatively mum may have been single then married.
Everyone should note the Royals have lots of aliases. ;D
Regards
pH
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Hi Russell
I think you should look at the Marks and Remarks section of the records you hold.
The anchor appears to cover up the mole.
He wears some kind of prosthesis for the lost little finger?
But the initials tattooed might be some sort of family tree.
My eyes are not good today by I think its GS ,Y or & or E, BP?
A work place injury resulting in the loss of finger with maybe other injuries,
delayed recovery time and consequential loss of employment
may have led to his life of crime.
Remember the poor were at work at 13 yrs old or younger.
regards
pH
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Hi,
She could be a factory worker. I found these searching Google for "piano bushing" rather than busher, that give more results than pianoforte busher :)
https://londonist.com/london/history/kentish-town-centre-of-the-universe-for-pianos
and a film of a German piano being made in 1926,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfemAvrupJ4
In 1939 the people living with her have the following occupations,
Cinema Usherettes
Alloy Metal Engineer
(wife) Unpaid Domestic Duties
Dental Assistant Sales Women
Office Cleaning General Post Office
Cook Canteen
Hope this helps :)
Daisy
Hi, I've tried but cannot find the entry in the 1939 Register which you refer. Are you able to confirm who you accessed the register through?
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Hi,
Searching using FindMyPast she is Edith BRUNDLE but at Ancestry she is "Edith H ??Rundle" and comes up on an Edith RUNDLE search.
Let me know if you still can't find her :)
Regards,
Daisy
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Edith was born in 1895 and is living in London in the 1939 Register. The minimum amount of information permitted from the 1939 is name, year of birth and county of residence. Any further information would have to be supplied via the personal message system.