RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Paulo Leeds on Wednesday 30 January 19 16:11 GMT (UK)
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If you had a relative (gt grandad, for example) who died in the 1940's (for example) and you had never seen a photo of them in all your time researching family history, would you (given the chance) view their exhumed corpse?
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After 70 years? You would most likely only find a skeleton, if that.
Why do you ask?
Gadget
Added - see
http://www.memorialpages.co.uk/articles/decomposition.php
Warning - not for the squeamish
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After 70-80 years?!
Not a chance! :P
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Why on earth would one want to!?
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Nah. A DNA sample, maybe, depending on which ancestor it was, but just looking at old bones wouldn't tell you much.
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Why on earth would one want to!?
Exactly :-X
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No way, leave them to stay in their peaceful resting places. Research them through documents in archives instead.
By the 1940s, cremation was becoming more common anyway.
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Erato has possibly "hit the nail on the head" - "on trend" DNA :
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If you had a relative (gt grandad, for example) who died in the 1940's (for example) and you had never seen a photo of them in all your time researching family history, would you (given the chance) view their exhumed corpse?
No, I wouldn't want to.
Exhumations require special permission in the UK (Coroner - Home Office - Police I think too).
Usually a detailed Archaeological Method study too (for Planning proposals), where buildings, driveways, railways, airports, or roads etc., cross cemeteries, with on-site recording during the works to make a complete permanent M.I. record and coffin plate etc record
Many Sextons Plans are now missing, not all graves had Memorials originally and many have no Memorials today.
Some graves have been exhumed of those who died in the Titanic disaster, who were found and buried shortly afterward, to try and identify remains. One grave only had the brass coffin plate in.
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I saw some exhumations on film and only several (out of hundreds being exhumed there) of persons who had been embalmed, wrapped and were still in dry complete Coffins in bone dry ground and were in a good state of at death preservation.
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In Parish Church Cemeteries they were stacked, often disturbing the grave, body and remains underneath.
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I think tracing the whole family (can be a large / impossible job for some), as more distant relatives (if a collector / hoarder) might / might not still have photographs (like Cousins of Parents and Grandparents) who identified photographs before their families died off.
My Grandparent's Wedding photo was in the newspaper 90 years ago. Although, we did track down an original and several other photos (from my Grandmother's remarriage family, descendants).
Mark
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Our church was moving out of our old chapel. We knew from newspaper reports that we had three people buried under the floor somewhere, but no-one had any idea where. But we had to move them.
We got an exhumation order easily enough, these were bodies from about the 1850's, with no living relatives. They had been moved into the chapel from the even earlier chapel. And it wasn't actually difficult finding the grave - turned out everyone taking the collection to the front had been standing on top of it for years!
We levered the cover off the top (it was an old gravestone someone had "borrowed" from goodness knows where), and were confronted with - FOUR skeletons!
We still have no idea who the fourth one was. We had to get the exhumation order amended. About all you could tell was that three of them were quite small, and one was a lot taller.
All four now lie in the local cemetery.
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What a truly horrible idea !
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What a truly horrible idea !
Why? this is nature, the life-cycle, evolution, someone's carriage of life
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Quite a few of my relatives are buried among the roots of a tree, if it ever falls they will be most likely be reappearing above ground level like it or not.
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"Why? this is nature, evolution, someone's carriage of life"
I'm not afraid to look at skeletons, nor am I repulsed by them. Indeed, I've participated in digging up a few [but not relatives]. However, it takes more than just a look at some bones to get a mental picture of what that person was like in life. I'd rather look at bones than a recently dead body, though. We used to be asked to photograph dead people in a village where we lived, often because the family had no other photo of the person. I hated it. They were people I knew at least casually, neighbors. Sometimes I made an excuse to get out of it - run out of film, the flash is broken, the light meter doesn't work, etc.
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No definitely not and I don't understand why anyone would want to.
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"Why? this is nature, evolution, someone's carriage of life"
I'm not afraid to look at skeletons, nor am I repulsed by them. Indeed, I've participated in digging up a few [but not relatives]. However, it takes more than just a look at some bones to get a mental picture of what that person was like in life. I'd rather look at bones than a recently dead body, though. We used to be asked to photograph dead people in a village where we lived, often because the family had no other photo of the person. I hated it. They were people I knew at least casually, neighbors. Sometimes I made an excuse to get out of it - run out of film, the flash is broken, the light meter doesn't work, etc.
Why were you involved in digging up the dead?
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And I can tell you that if you have had the experience of seeing a relative who has recently died, they are not really "them" anyway.
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What a truly horrible idea !
It is horrible.
The chances of the right preservation and the exact perfect conditions required (per film) when they were moving the dead of an old cemetery seem to be about 2 per 1,000 bodies. That kind of rare odds.
Not enough to warrant a bizzare request like this.
As others commented skeletons or nothing, is the usual norm.
Mark
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Erato, the same question from me too, please?
Martin
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I didn't read Erato's post as digging up the dead :-\
- I read it as taking photos before they were buried. :)
Wiggy
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Deleted
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I have done both - photographing and digging. The dug up individuals were archaeological remains. I was only peripherally involved in digging up the skeletons as an occasional assistant because my job was invertebrates, not human beings.
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I don't see any sensible reason for exhumation of any body just for the purpose of taking a photo of the decaying bones. Such a photo will not be of any benefit towards giving a life like representation, and may well cause other descendants to form an adverse view of the person who organised and funded such an unusual photographic task.
Do other descendants have any say in whether the grave should be disturbed just for a photo....
Can any relative veto the request ...
Does the cemetery have a legal role...
Before there were photos ... do you want to exhume graves from those earlier eras too ... how far back ... which century do you stop at ...
Many considerations ..
Why not just take photo of the gravesite...
JM
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If you had a relative (gt grandad, for example) who died in the 1940's (for example) and you had never seen a photo of them in all your time researching family history, would you (given the chance) view their exhumed corpse?
I think you are not suggesting exhuming them your self but if they were exhumed for some reason by the police or someone.
Than yes, I would given the chance. I wouldn't take a photo but I would like to attend the reinternment.
But what possible reason would anyone have to exhume them in the first place?
I asked a similar question some time ago, with regards to a preserved arm, people who believe they are related to the man whose arm it is have come to view it.
Found it
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=777627.msg6314417#msg6314417
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We used to be asked to photograph dead people in a village where we lived, often because the family had no other photo of the person. I hated it. They were people I knew at least casually, neighbors. Sometimes I made an excuse to get out of it - run out of film, the flash is broken, the light meter doesn't work, etc.
Taking photographs of the dead, I feel is for crime, other Incident scene Investigators and Archaeologists, not for family purposes.
Perhaps a newly stillborn baby is an exception, if you want a photo.
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I formally identified my Son 8 days after he was involved in a train suicide.
I had to see him and I knew straight away I needed to see him. Also I just couldn't believe he would do this to us.
Despite keeping newspapers, BTP Press Release, my paper copies (I had for my Inquest requirements and my own questions after) I made absolutely sure none of my copies have scene photographs showing my Son and nor do I want any, it is important that the horrifying recognisable sight fades in my memory.
I will remember the Police coming for the rest of my life. The Police, Emergency crews, Loco Driver, Guard, Railway staff have a difficult job and are disproportionately affected by suicide according to Network Rail. Of course I'm reminded each day too and every time a distant train passes when the wind is in the right direction.
The Helicoper Doctor states the precise Milepost number location (at odds to the Police who use a nearby road name) and the 3 Ambulances, the RRV and HeliMed transmissions start from the 999, states all manner of useful information, timings, locations and transmissions (for a later family historian asking when, where and why certain responses).
Much of the information above is only kept for two years.
It has been five years now, my Wife has suggested I have the photograph of my Son next to David Coulthard's F1 racing car in Scotland, of one of the many happy times. I'm thinking about it.
Taking photographs after death, I feel should be avoided.
Mark
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Mark
Respect.
Ray
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Mark,
You are courageous. Thank you for sharing.
May you be strengthened by support from the RChat community.
JM
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Thank you for those kind thoughts.
Five people EACH WEEK were still dying recently on our UK Rail Network due to suicide.
Don't enter the rail network, keep a safe distance and keep away from edges of platforms (the person's / persons location is often extremely perilous).
However Network Rail believe engaging the person in positive conversation from a safe distance (even through gaps in metal fencing) might be a lifesaver.
If someone is with you and can alert Station Staff, or if remote location and dialling Police in emergency, ask for the 'British Transport Police' first, for people seen acting suspiciously on our UK rail network.
A sign is now up, when looking through the metal railway fence slats, Contact telephone number, Control Signal Box name, Location reference number or a grid reference to tell the Signaller.
Mark
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On the practical side of exhumation:
You'll need a licence from The Ministry of Justice.
If the remains are in consecrated ground then permission must be obtained from the Diocesan Court.
There will be a fee to move any Memorial Stone.
A Funeral Director has to be employed to carry it out.
Cemetery Fees have to be paid.
Both an Environmental Health and Cemeteries Officer must be present at the exhumation and will supervise the event to ensure that respect for the deceased person is maintained and that public health is protected.
Exhumations are generally rare and tend to be traumatic for the family involved. They can take a long time to arrange and are usually expensive.
I would hazard a guess that it will be more expensive than a funeral, because of the extra people involved, and extra charges.
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Agree, expensive, difficult to arrange, particularly if in New South Wales, Australia and a coroner needs to be involved in the process, and no family members are permitted to witness the exhumation, and they are not allowed to inspect or be part of the activity ... Around $20,000 in government charges ... plus funeral director fees...
I am assured that the following pdf is the short version of the NSW protocol etc (18 pages) apparently the full version is significantly 'thicker'. https://www1.health.nsw.gov.au/pds/ActivePDSDocuments/PD2013_046.pdf I have not read through it, and I am informed that there may be photos of authorised teams in a cemetery undertaking a procedure ... in the pdf.
JM
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What a truly horrible idea !
It is horrible.
The chances of the right preservation and the exact perfect conditions required (per film) when they were moving the dead of an old cemetery seem to be about 2 per 1,000 bodies. That kind of rare odds.
Not enough to warrant a bizzare request like this.
As others commented skeletons or nothing, is the usual norm.
Mark
What is "per film"?
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You can dig 'em up but result is not always what you can expect.
This is the chaps burial of which I gave a description of on another thread the other day.
FROM FREEMAN’S JOURNAL AND DAILY COMMERCIAL ADVERTISER FRIDAY MARCH 22 1872
DESECRATION OF THE DEAD
On Monday, Tuesday and Thursday last a sickening scene was witnessed at the old burial ground, Upper Richmond Road, Putney . The estate of the late Mr. Henry Scarth of Putney, is being administered by the Court of Chancery, to the possession of which there are several claimants. One applied to the Home Secretary, through a “genealogist”, for permission to open the grave of the father of the deceased, a Mr James Scarth who was buried in 1828, with a view to see that the inscription on the coffin agreed with the burial register, and on the supposition that a variance existed in the age of the deceased. The Home Secretary gave his consent, on the allegations that there was a discrepancy between the age as stated on the tombstone and in the burial register, without inquiry or consulting the relatives of the deceased. Certain graves were then opened, and several bodies disturbed, including that of Alice Scarth, the widow of James, whose coffin was brought to the surface, while the burrow was continued underneath. When at a depth of twelve feet that of Ann Scarth, a daughter buried there, was exposed to view; but the coffin of James was not discovered. Ground in three other places was then tested with a sharply pointed iron rod and opened, and other bodies strangers to the family, disturbed. The details of this investigation are too revolting to relate. After three days the search – such as we hope may never occur again – was given up on information given by the descendant of sextant who buried the deceased, who produced an extract from the Sexton’s book, taken from the inscription plate at the time of the internment, showing the deceased was 59 years of age at the time of death, which agreed with the burial register. The genealogist was present directing operations. The relatives of the deceased were represented by a solicitor. After the all-powerful Home Secretary had sanctioned the proceeding, the distressed realtives could no nothing but join in the vicar’s representation in requiring and insisting that unnecessary indecency, such as lifting one coffin up, on its head whilst those underneath were dug for and examined was avoided. The tombstone stated the deceased was in his 59th year; and the burial register described him as to be aged 39. The Home Office might had easily have inquired that the discrepancy really was, instead of accepting as true the statement in the genealogist’s application that a discrepancy did exist. It remains to be seen whether the Home Secretary has power to order the opening of graves without good reason being assigned.; and if so whether he ought to exercise it upon exparte application of a stranger, and without making any inquiry whether the representations were true., and without regard to the feelings of the distressed relatives of the deceased person, where no suspicion existed as to the cause of death, but simply to gratify a whim.
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Hello
This might be one, make sure it is the documentary.
A Second Final Rest: The History of San Francisco's Lost Cemeteries. Format: 16mm optical sound film, color. Length: 46 minutes, 16 seconds. Year of Production: 2004.
Website about documentary filmaker Trina Lopez
http://trinalopez.com/finalrest/history.html
Graves were moved to mass graves ??? , but there were many complaints about the damage to some wonderfully expensive elaborate Memorials that were trashed!!
The vast majority of bodies were moved to mass gravesites in Colma, a small town known as "The City of Souls", just a few miles south of San Francisco. Colma has the peculiar distinction of being home to approximately 2,000 living and 2 million deceased
1950 Report
http://www.sfgenealogy.org/sf/history/hcmcpr.htm
I think the documentary I saw 15 - 20 years ago dealt with a Cemetery in the UK and possibly the removal of the San Francisco Cemeteries.
If you are interested in this kind of thing see also ...
Museum of London (Featured on an English, UK, TV last few week, Alice Roberts?)
The Museum of London holds in its archaeological archive approximately 17,000 skeletal human remains from
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20160923-the-lab-that-contains-20000-skeletons
The Wellcome Collection.
The building of Cross Rail, London, UK
Bedlam Burial Ground 8,000 transcriptions
http://www.crossrail.co.uk/sustainability/archaeology/bedlam-burial-ground-register
HS2 Construction, London, Euston, UK, regarding the removal of 45,000 bodies in London
https://www.hs2.org.uk/building-hs2/archaeology/
Natural History Museum
http://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/a-history-of-burial-in-london.html
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I don't have a macabre interest, but a Retired Building Inspector and former objector to the destruction of my Local Historic Locations, where a 2,000+ year old find was made before a housing development started, that received over 320 Objections with 200 different valid Planning reasons for objection (Planning Dept figures in the Planning Minutes). But it was still passed! >:( >:(
Mark