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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: aus*jen on Thursday 31 January 19 01:09 GMT (UK)
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Alice Maria Murray was the daughter of Margaret Jennings and John Murray who married in
Maitland NSW in 1837. I have details of this family but I'm looking for a baptism record for
Alice. There is no record for her on NSW BDM although there are early church records for her
siblings Jane Ann and John. The Vic. BDM index records her marriage to Frederick Eggleston
in 1857 (2373). Her mother's obituary mentions her daughter Mrs. F. Eggleston. There
is a death notice for Alice Maria on 28th August 1921 aged 77 years. This indicates a birth
about 1844.
I am looking for suggestions to locate a baptism for Alice. The marriage for her parents was
Catholic. At that time I think the Catholic records for the Hunter Valley NSW were held by St. Mary's Cathedral Sydney. I note the early church records for St. Mary's may now be held at
the Mitchell Library. As I live in Brisbane I can't access these. I am hoping a baptism cert. would
give a location for the family and sponsors names would also be of interest.
Any suggestions appreciated.
Regards,
Jen.
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:)
Hi,
I am not home, could be several weeks before I get back home, but some thoughts ...
:) marrying 1837, yes, possibly the clergy was on a circuit, but yes, he was expected by the NSW civil admin (so still a penal colony, no representative parliament etc), to transmit to his denomination's HQ ... (Diocese) the details of baptisms, burials, weddings of ceremonies he conducted , transmitting four times per year minimum (Jan, April, July, Oct)
:) also possible to transmit more frequently, and of course if on a circuit, to errr ... delay or misplace the register in the saddle bag ...
So not all records are extant, BUT ... ;)
Marrying 1837 ... and Alice likely born 1844 ... so not the first born ....
You likely have name of the clergy conducting the ceremony in the Maitland district ... thinking about the location for his register that he kept with him .... and from which he copied his records for transmitting to St Marys Cathedral ...
Think about any possible older siblings for Alice ... are their baptisms found? who was clergyman ... same or different from the marriage ... where was the baptism ... part of the Maitland circuit or in a different district ...
So basically trying to form a view of where Alice would likely have been taken for her baptism ... and then try to figure out who was likely clergyman ....
Sorry, I am not able to get into the actual nitty gritty search...
PS, I am assuming you have gone right with fine tooth comb : familysearch with Australia as location; Trove; NSW BDM; NSW ARK KIT ... perhaps available Qld State Library or larger public libraries or perhaps you could contact Ask a Librarian ... https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/archives-resources-kit-ark (for the printed Guides ... no longer used by NSW Archives, but very informative for background, and gives clues for suggested thingys !)
Fingers crossed :D
JM
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Hi JM, Thankyou for your (as usual) thorough and enlightening comments. ;D Following your
suggestions re the clergymen a pattern may emerge to trace the whereabouts of the
family. I had not considered the Queensland State Library may have early Hunter Valley
records, I will contact a family history librarian re this possibility. If not your suggestion
of Ask a Librarian at Mitchell Library may be successful. Trove and NSW BDM have proved
unrewarding. I have considered the purchase of the early church records from NSW BDM
but I am not certain that the details would be as comprehensive as those on the actual
baptism record e.g. sponsors. I note also that there is no district recorded on the NSW BDM
birth index for Alice's brother John born in 1851. The Catholic records from the Maitland
area are often difficult to interpret unless you understand the concept of the clerygman's
circuit you have described in your response. I have a baptism for my 2xgr.aunt
born in Wallis Plains (Maitland) recorded as being baptised in St. Mary's Sydney. She was
the daughter of a convict assigned to Wallis Plains so a trip to Sydney for a baptism would
not be possible. The answer of course was that in 1829 she was baptised by a clergyman
on circuit in the area and her baptism was then recorded as St. Mary's, the church
responsible for all catholic baptisms, marriages and burials in a time before any Maitland
churches were built.
Your assistance is appreciated ;D
Kind regards,
Jen.
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The birth year, 1844, suggested by her age at death, 1921, would make Alice MURRAY only 13 at marriage, 1857.
You need to see the 1857 marriage certificate. It will have information that Alice is giving about herself.....more reliable that death details given by an informant.
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Is it possible that in those days the family called themselves or were recorded as Murry?
And two more :)
Is it possible that the parents were married overseas?
So you know the date/s of death for the parents?
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Also equally possible this is her with the mothers name recorded incorrectly
MURRY MARIA 1317/1845 V18451317 62 JOHN ELIZABETH (NSWBDM)
and this one an older brother
MURRY JOHN 289/1843 V1843289 134 JOHN (no mothers name recorded, NSWBDM)
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Also equally possible this is her with the mothers name recorded incorrectly
MURRY MARIA 1317/1845 V18451317 62 JOHN ELIZABETH (NSWBDM)
and this one an older brother
MURRY JOHN 289/1843 V1843289 134 JOHN (no mothers name recorded, NSWBDM)
Volume 62 .... that's a possible ... it is Roman Catholic baptisms
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/births-deaths-and-marriages-registers-1787-1856 scroll down :
Roman Catholic 1840-1855 Vols. 61-72 Reels 5021-5027 fingers crossed those reels may be at Qld State Library perhaps ... :D
JM
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Wivenhoe, thankyou for your comments. Yes, 13/14 at marriage. There is a precedent in this
family for brides being young at marriage, her mother was 15 and 2 aunts 13 and 16
so I didn't consider it impossible. The year 1844 is all I have at present based on her
death notice in a Perth newspaper, it is a starting point for the search for her baptism
if in fact such a record exists. Alice may not have been baptised.
Shanreagh, I am not aware that this family used the name Murry, all records I have are Murray.
Parents married in 1837 in Maitland NSW, Margaret Jennings of Maitland to John Murray
Muswellbrook. Mother's death was 1903, father's death unknown due to difficulty of
isolating correct death from multiple death records of a John Murray on BDM.
Whiteout7 Thankyou for the records, I will check those out anything is possible.
JM Thankyou for the link and details of the reels I will check those out tomorrow :D
As you say, fingers crossed!
Regards to all,
Jen.
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Hi All, Today I went to QSL to check the NSW early church records for Alice Maria Murray.
Her sister Anne Jane was located with a baptism in West Maitland in 1842. No results
were found in 1843 and when I reached 1844 records - there were no records - due
to damaged records and those too feint to copy. This may explain the lack of an entry
in NSW BDM for Alice. The Catholic church in West Maitland could possibly still have
a legible register in their archives.
Jen.
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:D
A great piece of quality detective work there ... yes, it is as it obeys the rule "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence..."
Many significant floods around Maitland ... and the land is 'this' flat ...
JM
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Wonderful index available on FamilySearch
Card file of baptisms, marriages and burials for the Hunter Valley region : 1841-1867
Baptism of Anne Jane at West Maitland in 1842
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS2Q-YBTK?i=2677&cat=411342
From that, the parents are on image 2715
But no Alice Murray in the index!
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Ann Jane Murray with same d-o-b, 4 May 1842
and same parents names, John + Margaret
Baptised at St John's Launceston, Tasmania, 13 July 1842
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99CH-CRTM?i=85&cc=2125029
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Thankyou JM :D I didn't mention that I also looked at the 1851 baptism of a John Murray, the only
birth for a John Murray between 1837 and 1852 on NSW BDM. This baptism was in Sydney with parents John and Margaret with John's occupation recorded as Mariner. On the death cert. of
John and Margaret's daughter Anne Jane Murray his occupation was Sheep Overseer. There is too
much disparity between these two occupations so I am not convinced that this is the correct baptism. The 7 year gap between the birth of Alice and this baptism is also noteworthy.
The records that I looked at yesterday were the registers of St. Mary's Cathedral Sydney and were
the quarterly returns you mentioned in your reply #1. I assume these were copied from a register
held by the clergyman or in the church. Grasping at straws here ... but it is possible that the
missing 1844 quarterly returns could still be found in the West Maitland church register.
The family history librarian suggested that I contact S.A.G. for information and a possible
microfilm of Maitland church registers. The quarterly returns of St. Mary's held by the Qld.
State Library were filmed in 1985, it is possible S.A.G. and Mitchell Library have improved on the
quality of the images in their joint copying project with NAA.
Regards,
Jen.
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jonw65, thankyou for the link to the Familysearch index :D that is an excellent index which I had
not found previously.
Regards,
Jen.
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Still looking at the Murry/Murray angle i notice that Alice Maria's son William John born 1878 has his mother's maiden surname given as Murry. 1878/6744 BDM NSW
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Thanks shanreagh, :D I note on the Vic. BDM there are 5 births between 1860 and 1869
Father Frederick George Eggleston and Alice Murray (named on index as mother)
so perhaps the spelling is Murray.
Regards,
Jen.
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This is simply a great find ... it is fascinating to consider each little bit of info, from the big picture and from the quest to find Jen's elusive lass too... :)
Ann Jane Murray with same d-o-b, 4 May 1842
and same parents names, John + Margaret
Baptised at St John's Launceston, Tasmania, 13 July 1842
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99CH-CRTM?i=85&cc=2125029
I wonder ... and this is speculative, .... I wonder if this is a transmitted record ... although I notice the one immediately above it includes a notation suggesting that particular one is a transmitted record. Also, I notice on the left hand side of the page, there's the usual numbers, but while they are in an increasing order, they are not consecutive ... so to me, there's been an original parish register covering Baptisms, Burials, Marriages, Churchings ... and these have then been transcribed into separate registers ... and I wonder how many times these were then transmitted until they ended up in the Launceston VDL register ... (and thus how many times were there opportunities for handwritten 'typos' etc)...
This is simply a Great Find by Jonw65.
Some JM ramblings:
I recall an RChat search shortly after familysearch uploaded their new website thingy ... and at that time they had all of their NSW baptisms as being part of Tasmania ... but this image clearly shows Launceston as the abode... And I know with absolute certainty that for example there's many a baptism recorded in the Sydney CofE registers for St Phillips and for St James that were for ceremonies conducted by clergy of other denominations at localities including NZ and South Sea Islands, and etc... all pre civil registration commencing in NSW in 1856... but VDL ... in 1842 ... well civil registrations commenced in 1838 ....
There's a great 'thrill' to see something 'new' in these registers... it is what makes family history such a great challenge.
JM
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Thanks for your thoughts JM :D I must say that I thought Jon's find was a remarkable co-incidence but I did not understand the implications of such a find .....until you explained ;D Thankyou for
your continued interest. I have contacted Mitchell Library 'Ask a Librarian' to see if they know of any
copies of the original 1843 and 1844 catholic registers from West Maitland.
Regards,
Jen.
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Here is an interesting addition to your comments in reply #16 JM
Anne Jane Murray, daughter of John & Margaret Murray.
FamilySearch has a record of her birth as 4th May, 1842 and Baptism 13th July, 1842 at St. John's
Church Launceston. St. John's is an Anglican church.
NSW BDM index number V1842 2150 61 I looked at this early church record on microfilm
and the birth date is the same as Launceston record but the Baptism was 28th August, 1842
West Maitland Catholic Church. Six weeks after the original Baptism
FamilySearch confirms the NSW Baptism as being performed by Rev. Fr. J.T. Lynch at St. John's
Catholic church, West Maitland. Father, John Murray, abode Maitland.
The death certificate for Anne Murray at age 34 years states born Tasmania, 33 years in NSW
This would imply perhaps that mother & baby did not return to Tasmania.
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Yes, many thanks for sharing that Jen, I know there's several of my ancient living rellies who have already read your post and have phoned me, asking me to send you their compliments.
:)
IF only they would venture to actually join RChat.... they could be among some of the oldest living members .... :)
JM
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Thankyou JM :D my best wishes to your 'rellies' they would be an asset to RootsChat ;D
Regards,
Jen.