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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Wigtownshire => Topic started by: 2Harriet on Sunday 03 February 19 22:13 GMT (UK)
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Jane Mc Adam had an illigitimate daughter Annie Douglas Mc Adam 22 Feb 1859 at Knocknain, Kirkcolm Wigtownshire. When Annie was married to George Meikle 16 Jun 1882 her surname was Kerr and it states her parents as Jane McAdam and John Kerr who was a Flesher. It is assumed that John and Jane were still alive then as not marked deceased. I can find no marriage for Jane and John and no death for Jane either. I cannot find a John Kerr who is a Flesher on the 1881 census. Since Annie was surname Mc Adam on her birth record it is assumed she took on Kerr after her mother married John Kerr. I have spent a fortune on SP searching ... Anyone got any ideas please on Jane and Johns marriage, Janes parents or death?
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Since Annie was surname Mc Adam on her birth record it is assumed she took on Kerr after her mother married John Kerr.
That is not a safe assumption.
Even if the whole parish knew who the father of an illegitimate bairn was, the father's name could only be on the birth certificate if he accompanied the mother to the registrar's when she went to register the birth, and signed the certificate. And it's very common for an illegitimate child to use its father's name, or even to turn up with different surnames in different censuses.
Look carefully at the marriage certificate. How, exactly, is Annie's mother's name shown?
If it just says 'Jane McAdam', this means that Jane had not married by the time of Annie's marriage. If it says 'Jane Kerr, M S McAdam", this means that Jane McAdam (claimed that she) had married John Kerr.
have a look in the transcription of the 1861 census at https://freecen1.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl - I think Annie is probably the Ann Kerr, aged 2, a boarder in the household of John Hamilton at Clendrie Cottage, Kirkcolm in 1861. In 1871 she is a 12-year-old outworker, still with the Hamilton family at Clendrie. In 1881 she is a domestic servant in the household of Thomas Blair Hutchison in the parish of Colmonell.
The fact that Annie was boarded out as a child supports the view that her parents did not marry, because if they had, surely they would have taken her to live with them?
There are three possible ways you might find out more about Annie's parents.
First, it is possible that Annie came under the care of the parochial board, who arranged to board her with the Hamilton family. If so, there would have been detailed records of her in the registers of the Kirkcolm parochial board (Poor Law records). I have no idea whether these have survived, but I would start at http://www.dumgal.gov.uk/article/15308/Local-archives
Next, as the pregnancy was illegitimate, it would almost certainly have come to the attention of the Kirk Session of Kirkcolm, and if so their minutes would probably contain information about the errant couple. The surviving Kirk Session records are in the National Records of Scotland, and there does seem to be a volume dealing with 1835-1884 and an overlapping one for 1862-1871 (sometimes it took the kirk session a year or more to catch up with a couple who had sinned). Look in the NRS catalogue https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/search.aspx and use reference starting CH2/788. These have been digitised but as yet can be consulted only in the Historic Search Room in Edinburgh or in a small number of local archives including Aberdeen, Glasgow, Hawick and Inverness.
Thirdly, there might have been a court case to get a paternity order to make the father pay for the maintenance of the child. Many of these have been indexed and the indexes can be consulted at https://www.scottishindexes.com
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"Jane Mc Adam had an illigitimate daughter Annie Douglas Mc Adam"
Not sure this is strictly true as she is referenced as;
MCADAM ANN DOUGLAS 1859
887/ 14 Kirkcolm
"I cannot find a John Kerr who is a Flesher on the 1881 census"
Often a middle name indicates the surname of the reputed father if not a family name?
Forfarian has found who is likely your Ann but have you located Jane McAdam (mother) in the census' of 1861 onward & a possible male suspect with surname Douglas?
Annie
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Hi not your Annie but have You spotted Annie D McAdam who married a Robert Kerr in 1871 Galstin and died Annie Douglas McAdam in 1877
With the coincidence of names maybe related
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Hi Rosinish, yes thanks , her birth name was Ann not Annie. She was later known as Annie on her marriage record.
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her birth name was Ann not Annie. She was later known as Annie on her marriage record.
Never dismiss a possible match on grounds of spelling. Ever. Spelling was a very inexact science in the 19th century and you need to be aware of all alternative spellings and name variants.
An Ann can turn up in later records as Anna, Anne, Annie, Nan, Nanny, Nannie and Nancy atc
An Agnes can also turn up as Nancy, or as Agness, Aggie, Ness, Nessie etc
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2H,
Was there an actual address on the BC for your Ann Douglas McAdam & was it her mother who registered the birth or someone else?
Annie
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Place of birth was Knocknain, Kirkcolm according to 2Harriet's first post, but she didn't say who registered the birth.
There's a 28-year-old dairymaid named Jean McAdam, born Ireland, at Cairnside, Kirkcolm, in 1861. Could this be Annie's mother Jane McAdam, I wonder?
Knockneen and Cairnside are quite close together - see
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=54.9900&lon=-5.1502&layers=5&b=1
Clendry is further away, south of the village of Kirkcolm
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=54.9690&lon=-5.0838&layers=5&b=1
Photos of Knockneen https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NW9970
and Cairnside https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NW9870
and near Clendrie https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NX0267 - both taken from the road up to Clendrie, so these are the views that your Annie would have known throughout her childhood.
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Thank you everyone , In am working my way gradually through all your ideas.
FORFARIAN,
Thank you for all the time you have taken to help me. It looks like I have made a sows ear of this research I did many years ago .
Annie Douglas Kerrs’ marriage [ born as Ann Douglas McAdam in 1859 ] refers to her parents as John Kerr, Flesher and Jane Kerr M.S McAdam so I cannot assume her mother and John were married.
I previously had worked out somehow that at approx. Age 10 Annie is with her grandparents Hugh Kerr and Ann McCartney in the 1871 census…they have a son John who I thought could be the man she later claims is her father. In the 1861 census there’s an Annie Kerr wrongly transcribed by Ancestry as daughter of Hugh and Annie and born 1861 but is actually the illegitimate child of their 18yr old daughter Margaret who lives with them also at 61 Main St Kirkcolm. I am so confused. Clearly this Annie b 1861 is not the one who married my George Meikle and Hugh and Ann are not the grandparents of Ann/ Annie D McAdam or Kerr b 1859. Still working on the rest of your reply which sends me off on a more likely route. Thanks
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Annie Douglas Kerrs’ marriage [ born as Ann Douglas McAdam in 1859 ] refers to her parents as John Kerr, Flesher and Jane Kerr M.S McAdam so I cannot assume her mother and John were married.
It certainly looks as if Annie told the registrar that her parents were married. Thst is, of course, no guarantee that they were married; it wasn't unknown for people to bend the truth a little.
I previously had worked out somehow that at approx. Age 10 Annie is with her grandparents Hugh Kerr and Ann McCartney in the 1871 census…they have a son John who I thought could be the man she later claims is her father. In the 1861 census there’s an Annie Kerr wrongly transcribed by Ancestry as daughter of Hugh and Annie and born 1861 but is actually the illegitimate child of their 18yr old daughter Margaret who lives with them also at 61 Main St Kirkcolm.
FreeCEN transcribes this child as granddaughter, aged one month in 1861, which fits with the date of birth if Margaret's child on 20 February 1861.
It's always a good plan to look at the original document on Scotland's People, especially when the transcriptions differ. Usually, if FreeCEN says one thing and Ancestry something different, it's FreeCEN that is correct, but it's not guaranteed.
I am so confused. Clearly this Annie b 1861 is not the one who married my George Meikle
No, I think not.
and Hugh and Ann are not the grandparents of Ann/ Annie D McAdam or Kerr b 1859.
It's stil possible that she is a grandchild but if so I'd have expected them to take her to live with them rather than see her boarded elsewhere.
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Hi. Wigtownshire Poors records are held in the National records of Scotland. Kirkcolm is C04/33/6 I
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Sorry, the last post went before I had finished the post. Kirkcolm Register of the poor 1845-1896 is CO4/33/6 But it needs a visit in person to search.
Ian McClumpha
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Hi not your Annie but have You spotted Annie D McAdam who married a Robert Kerr in 1871 Galstin and died Annie Douglas McAdam in 1877
With the coincidence of names maybe related
That is the one that caught my eye too, Wendy!
Specially because of the other marriage in Galston a few months later:
Hugh Mckail and Jane Douglas Mcadam
29 Nov 1870
Galston, Ayr
Someone has an online tree which I think refers to the same Jane Douglas McAdam going on to marry a George Black, a miner, in Galston in 1878. Her death is showing as having been on 22 July 1913 in Kilmarnock, Ayrshire.
One census included for her and George Black (1881) where she shows as born in Stranraer c. 1844.
Plenty of details there to try and establish whether there is any connection to your Annie D.
Monica
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This is Annie after she had just married Robert Kerr in 1871:
Robert Kerr 45 coal miner b. Beith Ayrshire
Annie Kerr 23 b. Shammer (as transcribed), Wigtownshire
Address: Ganch Rows, Galston Ayrshire
This is the closest I can see for Jane Douglas McAdam who married Hugh McKail in 1870. This entry also from 1871:
Thomas Murray 35 banker
Lydia M Murray 37
Jane McKael 25 cook b. Stranraer
Elizabeth Nielson 23
Address: South Main St, Wigtown
Added: there is a death for a 54 yr old Hugh McKail in 1876 in Galston Ayrshire. So, this Jane was certainly free to marry again George Black in 1878 in Galston....if I am guessing correctly!
Monica
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Ann D McAdam b 22 Feb 1859 at Knocknain was registered and roughly signed by her mother Jane Mc Adam . Interestingly a child Williamina was born 23 Sept 1860 at Cairnside to a Jane McAdam [as per record on SP] Jane only signed by a X. What do you think... same mother.? A bit of a coincidence two Jane /Jean Mc Adams so close ??
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Hi Sorry I am slow to respond here. I am trudging through SP and downloaded docs to verify each comment I make. The Annie b 1861 was verified on Sp to be Margarets not Hugh and Ann/ Annie s.
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Ann D McAdam b 22 Feb 1859 at Knocknain was registered and roughly signed by her mother Jane Mc Adam . Interestingly a child Williamina was born 23 Sept 1860 at Cairnside to a Jane McAdam [as per record on SP] Jane only signed by a X. What do you think... same mother.? A bit of a coincidence two Jane /Jean Mc Adams so close ??
Sounds very much as if it's the same person.
Have not found this baby in the 1861 census, however.
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There's a 28-year-old dairymaid named Jean McAdam, born Ireland, at Cairnside, Kirkcolm, in 1861. Could this be Annie's mother Jane McAdam, I wonder?
Knockneen and Cairnside are quite close together - see
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=54.9900&lon=-5.1502&layers=5&b=1
Ann D McAdam b 22 Feb 1859 at Knocknain was registered and roughly signed by her mother Jane Mc Adam. Interestingly a child Williamina Mc Adam was born 23 Sept 1860 at Cairnside to a Jane McAdam [as per record on SP] Jane only signed by a X. What do you think... same mother.? A bit of a coincidence two Jane /Jean Mc Adams and births being so close ??
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Did either of the two birth certificates say what Jane McAdam's occupation was?
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I'll throw this into the pot...
What if Jane McAdam wasn't really who she proclaims on Ann's birth?
There's this, the only Douglas in the area in 1861 :-\
DOUGLAS JEAN
26
887/ 6/ 2 Kirkcolm, Wigtown
Annie
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Did either of the two birth certificates say what Jane McAdam's occupation was?
Ann b 1859 and Williamina's b1860 births were only 7 months apart. I cant find any ref to Williamina after that either yet.
House maid and Kitchen maid !
Thankyou for bearing with me.
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Now you come to mention it, 7 months doesn't sound long enough - I think there must have been two of them.
I think it would probably be quite difficult to pretend to be someone else in a small rural parish like Kirkcolm, because the chances are that the registrar was also the schoolmaster or session clerk or someone else who would actually know, or know about, just about everyone in the parish.
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Surely the births were 1 year and seven months apart(22 Feb 1859 and 23 Sept 1860).
A public tree on Ancestry has posted the birth, marriage and death certs. of Ann Douglas McAdam/Kerr. I note that on her death cert. only her mother is named - there is not even a father unknown written.
Re Williamina there is a Williaminie Cavin age 6mo and born Kirkcolm showing in the 1861 census with Thomas McCowan and family in Stranraer - she is showing as Nrs - Ch (as per Freecen) presumably nurse child.
William
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Re Williamina there is a Williaminie Cavin age 6mo and born Kirkcolm showing in the 1861 census with Thomas McCowan and family in Stranraer - she is showing as Nrs - Ch (as per Freecen) presumably nurse child.
So there is - I missed her because I used wil*mina in the search. Should have used wil*min*.
I think the evidence is building that Jean McAdam, who was a servant at Cairnside in 1861, could be the mother.
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Just to throw this into the mix:
The 1861 census has this entry in Stranraer
Ann Jane McAdam wid 45 b Ireland seamstress
Elizabeth Murray dau 21 b Ireland servant
Annie Douglas dau 14 b Stranraer
Might this be the Annie D McAdam referred to by Monica and Wendy?
I also note that there is a death in Stranraer for an Ann Jane McAdam in 1861. Her maiden name is showing as Douglas - age given as 46. So likely to be the Ann Jane in the above census.
William
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With Annie Douglas McAdam's clearer on details, might be worth also checking the Jane Douglas McAdam (as mother to Annie born 1859) who was mentioned earlier, who showed up and married in Galston Ayrshire at the same time as Annie. Sisters?
Monica
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Think I have found Ann Jane McAdam in 1851 living as a lodger in the household of David McKinnon in Little Ireland Stranraer using the surname Murray with her is Betsy Murray (Elizabeth in 1861) Robert Murray Ann McAdam and Mary McAdam no sign of a Jane though
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Don't know if sisters...
1851, matching your family in 1861, William:
Ann Jane Murray 36 lodger b. Dromer C Dem, Ireland (as transcribed)
Betsey Murry 11 b. Ballylagh Dem, Ireland
Robert Murry 10 b. Belfast, Ireland
Ann Mcadam 4 b. Stranraer
Mary Mcadam 1 b. Stranraer
Address:Little Ireland, Stranraer
No sign of a Jane Douglas McAdam within this group is there :-\
Monica
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What if Jane McAdam wasn't really who she proclaims on Ann's birth?
There's this, the only Douglas in the area in 1861 :-\
DOUGLAS JEAN
26
887/ 6/ 2 Kirkcolm, Wigtown
I think it would probably be quite difficult to pretend to be someone else in a small rural parish like Kirkcolm
Forfarian, Sorry, I missed your comment above & I should have explained my thoughts & elaborated (was thinking aloud).
I was wondering if perhaps this Jean Douglas may have been using 2 surnames at different times i.e. possibly illegitimate herself using Douglas &/or McAdam or both at some time...a passing thought?
Annie
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I was wondering if perhaps this Jean Douglas may have been using 2 surnames at different times i.e. possibly illegitimate herself using Douglas &/or McAdam or both at some time...a passing thought
Yes, quite possible, I suppose.
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OOPS...there is indeed a year and 7 months between Ann and Williamina making it probable that they have the same Jane McAdam as their mother.
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A public tree on Ancestry has posted the birth, marriage and death certs. of Ann Douglas McAdam/Kerr. I note that on her death cert. only her mother is named - there is not even a father unknown written.
Here is the death record of my Ann/Annie Douglas McAdam [my Gt Grandmother] showing the claim that her father was a John Kerr.
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2 Harriet that is her marriage you have put up do you have her death cert or do you know when and where she died
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2 Harriet that is her marriage you have put up do you have her death cert or do you know when and where she died
oops again, have attached death record...
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Monica and Wendy this one attached is Annie D McAdam died 1877
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The marriage of Jane Douglas McAdam to Hugh McKeil in Galston in 1870:
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So...Jane and Ann were sisters and Annie was a witness to her marriage to Hugh McKeil.
Both sisters give parents as a William McAdam, labourer deceased and mother Annie Douglas McAdam, nee Douglas. Also deceased at the time of the marriage.
Following Scottish (and Irish) naming pattern, looks a good possibiltity that Annie Douglas McAdam was called after her maternal grandmother?
Mother we know shows in the 1851 census from earlier as Ann Jane Murray, with two older Murray children (born in Ireland as was mother) and then McAdam children born in the 1840s in Wigtownshire (Stranraer?).
Monica
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So Jane Douglas McAdam was the sister of the other Annie Douglas McAdam and Annie is a witness
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That is the way it looks, Wendy.
Wonder where Jane was in 1851?
Monica
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couldn't see her either but did notice her age at death puts her birth about 1838 rather than 1844 in the census you found so possibly working away from home had a look for the family in 1841 but no joy there maybe also born in Ireland
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Just adding the index entry to the death you mentioned, Wendy:
Jane MCADAM/Black
aged 74
1913
Ref 597/ 236
Kilmarnock (Ayr)
Monica
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1891 census for Jane:
Jane Black 51 Living on Private Means b. Stranraer
Agnes Black 25 daughter b. Hurlford, Ayrshire...likely daughter to George Black and first wife Margaret Richmond
Address: 37 Waterside Kilmarnock
Monica
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Just narrowing down search years for Jane. This is Ann Jane Douglas/Murray in 1841 with the two Murray children we had:
Ann Jane Murray 28 sewer b. Ireland
Elizabeth Murray 2 b. Ireland
Robert Murray 8 Months b. Ireland
Address: Little Ireland, Stranraer
Monica
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All births reg. Ballantrae Wigtonshire Scotland
MEIKLE Annie Jane Parke 1883
MEIKLE Janet McMurray 1885
MEIKLE Elizabeth 1887
MEIKLE Georgina 1889
MEIKLE Susan Hamilton 1890
MEIKLE Helen Mary 1891
MEIKLE John Gilbert 1892
MEIKLE Gilbert Elliot 1893
MEIKLE Lydia Grace 1895
MEIKLE Robert Ernest H 1897
MEIKLE Frederick John 1900
Marriage, 1882 McADAM - MEIKLE, witness Jeanie HAMILTON.
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Following Scottish (and Irish) naming pattern, looks a good possibiltity that Annie Douglas McAdam was called after her maternal grandmother
Monica
Also the second child Williamina named after her maternal grandfather possibly?
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Wow things are going at a pace here and starting to come together for me. I have all of th Sp downloads for Annie b 1861 s children and there is also a Jean/ Jane Hamilton Meikle 1894-1979. Here is the marriage of Williamina attached have a look at her mother!
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I think you have found the last piece of the jigsaw there that ties the 3 generations together
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"thrutheyears" on Ancestry advised me to Go to Find a Grave Index for - JANE BLACK and go to the headstone pic. Buried in the family grave of Wilhelmina Douglas or Stewart....guess what I am looking up !
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There's a death of Jane McAdam, other name Black, aged 74, in Kilmarnock in 1913. I think I'd be keen to have a look at that if I were you.
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That is great confirmation, Harriet!
Regardless of what people are stating for their father's names... ::) possibility that Wilhemina's reputed father may have had the surname of Cavin? There is a 6 months old Williamina Cavin showing on the 1861 census that may be her:
Thomas Mccowen 38
Sarah Mccowen 35
Sarah Mccowen 16
Isabella Mccowen 3
James Mccowen 8
Annie Mccowen 4
Williamina Cavin 6 Months nursing child b. Kirkcolm, wigtonshire
Address: 8 Rankins Court, Inch/Stranraer
Monica
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Hi Forfarian, its the same Jane as on Wilhelminas headstone well spotted. I have attached the headstone. I am getting there with everyone's help.
Janes marriages were short so far I have. Hugh McKail 1870-1876 and to George Black 1878-1883 .
Her marriage record gives her parents as William McAdam and Ann Jane McAdam M.S Mc Adam.
Janes birthplace varies between Ireland and Wigtownshire in the census' hey ho!
Thank you all so much.
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Great outcome, well done all, superb combined effort!
Annie
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Census 1881 at Millisle Farm House Sorbie Wigtonshire
KERR John 49yrs b. Beith Ayrshire
KERR Jane 45yrs b. Kilmarnock Ayrshire
KERR Robert 19yrs son b. Dreghorn Ayrshire
KERR William 16yrs son b. Dreghorn Ayrshire
KERR Mary Jane 12yrs dau. b. Scorbie Wigtonshire
KERR Elizabeth 12yrs visitor b. Whithorn Wigtonshire
CRONNIE Annie 32yrs servant b. Mochrum Wigtonshire
HIGGINS Mary 23yrs servant b. Minnygaff Kirkcudbright
WOOD Mary 20yrs servant b. Whithorn Wigtonshire
DOUGLAS Minna 20yrs servant b. Glasserton Wigtonshire
Farmer 300 acres arable employing 6 hands
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Hi Everyone thank you so much every one of you for your help and patience. Just need to record all onto my tree which is hard with all the McAdams', Douglas' name permutations and generations swimming in front of my eyes. Researching Jane Mc Adam has been the hardest of all my searches in my 20 years experience of this addiction. Bonus though is that many of my old ,previously discounted, downloaded records have fitted in to place now. All the name changes is head -nipping. I keep my master tree on my laptop on Roots Magic software and to add to my difficulty is all the Mc Adams from Kirkcudbright that are on my husband side. I am constantly flicking windows back and forth- Ancestry, Rootschat, Scotlands People and my master tree open and saved downloads... I dont think I am very organised with this one but you have all been amazing.
Have we connected the John Kerr son of Hugh Kerr and Ann mcCartney to our Jane or is it just a possible.?
Some records have Jane as being born in Ireland eg 1911 census but early census' had her living in "Little Ireland " Stranraer and I wondered if that is why sometimes it is Ireland and sometimes Stranraer. Has there ever been a little Ireland in Stranraer ?
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Yes, there was a Little Ireland in Stranraer.
http://www.stranraer.org/sti_visit/stranraer_towntrail4.html
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thanks Forfarian , fascinating social history. I found this and wonder if this is what it means...
Jane Douglas McAdam b 1835
her mother was Ann Jane McAdam b abt 1815 in Ireland widow of unknown Murray
Jane McAdams b 1815's parents are William Mc Adam and Ann Douglas .
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Have we connected the John Kerr son of Hugh Kerr and Ann mcCartney to our Jane or is it just a possible.?
As with any help on RC or anywhere else i.e. trees online/transcriptions etc. we can only give 'a possible' & needs verification by the poster of queries.
Annie
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Yes Annie, I have now got info confirmed with census' thankyou .
I am all sorted now and will put completed in the title. Thankyou everyone it has been great chatting with enthusiasts and finally making sense of documents I had set aside years ago and you have pointed me in the direction of new relevant ones.
Happy researching,
Harriet