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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: bykerlads on Monday 04 February 19 22:23 GMT (UK)
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Is there any way of finding out if a man was in a reserved occupation in WW2? Do records exist?
Or if he was excused military service on health grounds?
Also, how would the wages and financial situation of a serving soldier have compared with that of a man who was in a reserved occupation? One hopes that there would have been no financial advantage in not being on active service.
The mystery is why a relative aged 21 in 1939 did not serve in the military. Too late to ask him now, or course.
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This website might give you some insight into reserved occupations.
Perhaps your 21 year old had flat feet, or some other medical reason?
https://www.1900s.org.uk/reserved-occupations.htm
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The Australians would not enlist anybody who had bad teeth. Every army had it's criteria.
Regards
Chas
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Guy Etchells has a free download to the Anguline site containing the booklet Schedule of Reserved Occupations (Provisional). It may be found on the free downloads page at
http://anguline.co.uk/free.html
See https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=674198.msg5191880#msg5191880
Stan
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Guy Etchells has a free download to the Anguline site containing the booklet Schedule of Reserved Occupations (Provisional). It may be found on the free downloads page at
http://anguline.co.uk/free.html
See https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=674198.msg5191880#msg5191880
Stan
Thanks for this, surprised to see there was such a large number of different occupations, also wasn't aware of the age qualifiers - i.e. if you were under 25 or under 30 you still had to fight.
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Thanks for the info. Very interesting.
It looks as if our man given his age, must have been excused military service on medical grounds.
I wonder exactly how stringent the rules were to be considered too unfit to serve.
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Take a look at him in the 1939 register. There is sometimes a clue there such as stressing their occupation. My Dad has his occupation shown as 'Electrician Heavy Power Worker', but I don't think he would have passed a medical anyway as he had some 'curvature of the spine'.
Our good friend next door but one Mr. Henry is shown as Carpenter, Joiner, Foreman, but over to the right of the page and on the next part which is usually blank there is an added note A.R.P. HUDC Rescue and Demolition.
Unfortunately they had removed 'Fallen Arches' from the not wanted list, by 1951, and that just earned me an 'A2' classification when I went for my medical. Since it was a 'done' decision, I enlisted instead.
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Just another thought. Maybe he was a Keel Man from Byker?
Well, judging by the song?
THE KEEL LAD
He's an ug'ly body,
A lovely Body,
An ill faced hideous fyeul,
But Aah hev married a Keel Lad,
And my guid days are done.
Now Aah thowt te marry a Parson,
to make us say me prayers,
But Aah hev married a Keel Lad,
And he kicks me doon the stairs.
Aah thowt te marry a Dyer,
to dye me Apron Blue,
But Aah hev married a Keel Lad,
and he meks me Sally Roo.
Aah thowt te marry a sailor,
te bring us beads and lace,
But Aah hev married a Keel Lad,
and he's a bloody disgrace.
Aah thowt te marry a joiner,
te mek us a chair and stool,
But Aah hev married a Keel Lad,
and he's a perfect fyeul.
And then you only had to live in Consett and be a Steel Man. But they got me Uncle Dick cos he was a grocer so it was the DLI for him. Nevertheless he ended up in a different kind of reserved occupation - Italian POW camp after being taken prisoner in North Africa, then a German POW camp after he escaped and got picked up by the other lot.
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My Dad was in a reserved occupation in WW2 (Railway fireman later train driver) He had volunteered at the age of 15 in 1914, and was told to come back next year if it's still going (it was!) and don't be 16!! He volunteered with the Cambridgeshire regiment and served from 1915 until the Armistice.
During WW2 he was also a Homeguard sergeant, refused a commission so served as a Sergeant. From documents I stumbled on when he died in 1971, and their nature only being confirmed on a visit to Kew a few years ago, he also seems to have been a "Staybehind". One designated to stay behind German lines after invasion and commit sabotage etc. Life expectancy around 7-10 days. Luckily the invasion never happened. So, even if you were in a reserved occupation there was plenty of active war service for such people to do.
One such was a future Prime Minister Harold Wilson who I understand volunteered for service on the outbreak, only to be drafted into The Ministry for Economic Warfare the following day!!
Shows how much information Government had on high flyers even at that time!
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Hi I know my dad was in a reserved occupation, he was a coal miner in Yorkshire, coal was needed for the war effort to help in the production iron steel etc, for the other industries we had at the time,,,,
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Hi I know my dad was in a reserved occupation, he was a coal miner in Yorkshire, coal was needed for the war effort to help in the production iron steel etc, for the other industries we had at the time,,,,
Was he perhaps a 'Bevin Boy'? Bevin Boys were conscripted by lot. I think I would rather have gone to the front which was at times much safer than we got it at home. I did get two weeks off school when it was hit with 2 bombs during one raid. Then came the buzz bombs and a rocket which fell a mile away hitting a cemetery gates, and the blast cracked one of our windows.
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Two coincidences here!!
Malcolm, you have indirectly touched on our man's origins! He came from a long line of Byker keelers/watermen- though by the end of the 1800's the family no longer plied that trade.
Redroger has, in mentioning Harold Wilson who was born in Huddersfield, mentioned the town where our man was living by 1936. He was born in Byker and came to Hudds as a professional football player. A brief career, by 1939 he was an engineering worker.
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My uncle was 18 in 1939, an apprentice electrician in the Kent coalfield. He always said he volunteered immediately so he didn't get trapped at the pit!
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Of our near neighbours, only one served in HM Forces and he was a pilot. The rest were teachers, a council clerk, a policeman. My father-in-law, born in Byker, was a train driver in Hull Docks and a Civil Defence fire warden; an uncle was the foreman joiner at the Co-Op; my father (served in the Home Guard) and his four brothers were all engineers with three of them building earth moving equipment for the same company. That company also trained women to use their machines. The machines and their female operators were needed to help farmers feed the nation by clearing and draining every part of the farms in order to increase production. Here's a photo of two land army girls on a Devon farm with a Priestman's excavator.
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My father-in-law was in a reserved occupation in WW2, as he was a plumber and builder, but my father, a businessman, was called up in 1942 at the age of 41 and was sent to Scapa Flow to look after the Navy there. My mother was left to run the business and look after two very small children. I believe 41 was the oldest men could be called up, so he was unlucky there, but the older men in this case were not sent to the fighting front.
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The whole system for calling up men seems to have been a bit unclear and inconsistent.
I do wonder how much resentment it caused amongst people when they saw, for example, a 30 year-old with 3 kids called up to fight when his neighbour a unmarried strong 20 year old stayed at home in relative safety.
I do recall that my dad always emphasised the fact that he volunteered the day he was old enough and had no respect those those who "piked about at home, waiting to be called up". He hinted that his volunteering remained on his record and CV and accounted for his being promoted and making great progress in his job when he returned.
Particular criticism was directed locally at the son of a market gardener who "fiddled about in greenhouses whilst his mates went to die for their country"
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My father was 31 in 1939. He formulated camo. colours for RAF aircraft and had two patents in 1942 connected with the War effort. He did try to volunteer for the RAF in 1940, but was turned down flat. He was involved in cocooning of deck cargoes sent to Murmansk. It was mooted he go on a convoy, but that was squashed too.
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The whole system for calling up men seems to have been a bit unclear and inconsistent.
I do wonder how much resentment it caused amongst people when they saw, for example, a 30 year-old with 3 kids called up to fight when his neighbour a unmarried strong 20 year old stayed at home in relative safety.
I do recall that my dad always emphasised the fact that he volunteered the day he was old enough and had no respect those those who "piked about at home, waiting to be called up". He hinted that his volunteering remained on his record and CV and accounted for his being promoted and making great progress in his job when he returned.
Particular criticism was directed locally at the son of a market gardener who "fiddled about in greenhouses whilst his mates went to die for their country"
For the agricultural jobs, most of the ages for reserve were 25, some were 30, such as horse trainer/stud man, ditcher/hedger, hay cutter/straw binder. For other occupations, there were lower 21 and 23 ages which qualified, I presume for the jobs they thought women less able of doing.
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I know of at least one case of flagrant abuse of the system. There was a prominent grocer and future Mayor in Boston who had a son liable to be called up. On hearing that his son was likely to be called up Daddy bought him a local farm, and he became a farmer. Still worked in the grocer's shop though. We were unlucky enough to be allocated to him for rations!
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Relevant to our man's employment during WW2, have just seen an item on Antiques Road Trip about David Brown's Tractors in Meltham, West Yorks.
This was where he worked, apparently instead of serving in the military.
It seems that the factory at Meltham Mills manufactured components for Sptifires, Hurricanes etc and was the only unbombed factory of this strategic type in UK. Without its products, the outcome of the war would have been very different.
I know that many women worked there during the war, including my mother in law who worked nights on a turret lathe for 5 years.
Probably our man was indeed in a reserved job, if he did not volunteer.
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I looked into this last year, and found that skilled workers were exempt until at least about 25 years of age. I wondered if that was to keep a constant supply of skilled workers, i.e. apprentices from age of 15 years, once qualified, could then enter the chain, freeing up the 25 year olds for active service.
Today, I have found on the web that was the case, as in WWI too many skilled men volunteered or were conscripted, and there was difficulty in finding replacements for the UK industries, Tec
A relative, an electrician, volunteered for the RN at the age of 20 but was turned down flat, and by the time he was 25 the war was over.
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Because my father worked in an earth moving machine factory during WWII, I thought they probably made "crawlers" for the tanks but this wasn't so - according to his reply, when I asked him, they made cottar pins (hope my memory is reliable on that) for the war effort. It was only by reading through the list of exemptions that I realised why my tall, strong, strapping, father had worked in civvy street. At the start of the war, he was 26 years old and was a "charge hand"(assistant foreman) in charge of the Machine Shop.
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My uncle was 18 in 1939, an apprentice electrician in the Kent coalfield. He always said he volunteered immediately so he didn't get trapped at the pit!
When SWMBO's father volunteered he was told to go back and finish his apprenticeship. Once qualified he joined the RAF as a fitter.
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My father was in a reserved occupation he started making spitfires in 1938.
You asked the difference between those still working and those in the forces re difference in pay.
Those in their usual jobs earned more than those serving according to my aunts and my inlaws. My father worked many hours overtime getting parts made and was paid well. The same can't be said for those serving. My father in law and 2 uncles came away from serving during WW2 with virtually nothing my father paid cash for my childhood home when he and mum married in 1947.
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The Australians would not enlist anybody who had bad teeth. Every army had it's criteria.
Regards
Chas
It was amazing to see how bad were the teeth of the men in” They shall grow not old”,but of course no N.H .S and a poor diet and very often lots of
tea with condensed milk as sugar and milk.
Most did not own a tooth brush.
Bad teeth are not just that,they are vehicles for lots of infections besides the obvious abscesses.
Continued infections like that can seriously affect the heart in time.
The pain also ,wow! Imagine eating hard tack with poor dentition.
Poor kids ,that is all many were.
Viktoria.
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Not WW2 but WW1, the recent film on tv using enhanced and coloured old film about the troops in WW1 was striking in regard to the terrible teeth of the soldiers.This must have been normal in those days.
In fact really, as far as I can see, it wasn't until the latter part of the 2oth century that the need to clean your teeth became commonly recognised
I was born in 1949 and despite being taken 4 times a year to the dentist, I had appalling teeth including needing 10 extracted at once aged about 7. I wouldn't say my parents were particularly ignorant or negligent. Just not motivated enough to make the effort to closely supervise brushing. Once I was old enough to take responsability for cleaning my teeth, no further damage occured. Though now, 60 years on, all the fillings are gradually falling out.
Needless to say, I was much more attentive to my own children's teeth. I would have ashamed if they had ever needed any fillings.
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Not WW2 but WW1, the recent film on tv using enhanced and coloured old film about the troops in WW1 was striking in regard to the terrible teeth of the soldiers.This must have been normal in those days.
In fact really, as far as I can see, it wasn't until the latter part of the 2oth century that the need to clean your teeth became commonly recognised
My father was born 1912 and one of eight children. They regularly cleaned their teeth with a forefinger covered with either soot from the back of the fireplace or salt. Neither of my parents had cavities or missing teeth. During WWII my brothers and I had our own toothbrush which we dipped in a tin of solid Gibbs toothpaste. I think the Gibbs must have had sand in it because I eventually couldn't bare anything very cold on my front teeth.
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More likely to be pumice than sand ;D
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The whole system for calling up men seems to have been a bit unclear and inconsistent.
I do wonder how much resentment it caused amongst people when they saw, for example, a 30 year-old with 3 kids called up to fight when his neighbour a unmarried strong 20 year old stayed at home in relative safety.
I do recall that my dad always emphasised the fact that he volunteered the day he was old enough and had no respect those those who "piked about at home, waiting to be called up". He hinted that his volunteering remained on his record and CV and accounted for his being promoted and making great progress in his job when he returned.
Particular criticism was directed locally at the son of a market gardener who "fiddled about in greenhouses whilst his mates went to die for their country"
my father worked nights in an engineering factory during the war. In the afternoon before going to work he often used to go for a cycle ride. It upset him greatly when people called out to him, decrying his ability to serve in the armed forces. He also used to do the fire watching when he wasn’t working, so rightly thought he was “doing his bit”.
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"They also serve who only stand and wait."
John Milton (d. 1674)
Regards
Chas
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Bykerlads, you and I are talking about the same film footage of WWI.
The teeth were really awful weren’t they!.
It was common practice for a young woman’s wedding present from her parents to be total removal and full set of false teeth on the basis that
she would have no more trouble from them.
Although drastic it was perhaps the better of two evils.
An old belief was that you lost at least one tooth for every child,well Queen Victoria must have lost a few,but of course her diet would be so very much better than ordinary women’s.
Tooth abscesses were very common and a gum infection, pyorrhoea
due to infected teeth sockets was almost commonplace.
Imagine those men and lads with toothache etc never mind the Germans,shells and all!
My O H had a tooth abscess once and it went right down into his jaw and came out through his lower cheek. He had a mark there everafter.
Of course with him work came first and he ought to have done something about it before he set out on an international business trip.Ouch ,oh the pain he was in.
Perhaps the toothache gave our lads the impetus to go and bash the Boch,
well they would want to bash something,probably a wall with their head but there were no walls standing ,well not in Ypres!
Viktoria.
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my father worked nights in an engineering factory during the war. In the afternoon before going to work he often used to go for a cycle ride. It upset him greatly when people called out to him, decrying his ability to serve in the armed forces. He also used to do the fire watching when he wasn’t working, so rightly thought he was “doing his bit”.
My Dad worked at Acton Bolt in Acton where they made bolts and screws, so vital for the War Effort. Very often after he had come home for dinner - and it was a long journey in the train with a half hour walk at each end - he had to go back and stand on the roof of the factory putting out the incendiaries. One night they hit the factory next door which he said processed butter and the fat splattered all over their factory roof causing them to slip and nearly go over the edge.
This will give you an idea of the intensity of the raids trying to hit all the factories in Acton - Acton should be about the middle of this bomb map - http://bombsight.org/#13/51.5055/-0.2727
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Yes Malcolm, when I commuted to Paddington in the early 1960's, I passed the factories in Acton to the right with steel cuppolas for fire watchers.