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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: Steve G on Tuesday 05 February 19 19:07 GMT (UK)

Title: The WW2 Gestapo 'List'?
Post by: Steve G on Tuesday 05 February 19 19:07 GMT (UK)
 I was exchanging notes with 'Uncle Bob' ~ Bob Dawson ~ the other day. We touched on the notorious List of people the nazi gestapo had compiled. Consisted of people they'd want a word with, once they'd over run Britain.

I'd seen a list, as an appendix to a book I had. But, it was just political figures and such. With typical, German efficiency, they'd even listed Winston Churchill! Just in case anyone let him slip though the net, I s'pose?  ;D

But, Bob said there was Another list. One featuring just ordinary Gypsys and Jews. Mentioned there were a Lot of Gray's on it.

Only, he reckons his copy must be with Reading now. Just wondered; Anyone else got access to a copy, please?

Thanks  :)
Title: Re: The WW2 Gestapo 'List'?
Post by: Berlin-Bob on Wednesday 06 February 19 17:56 GMT (UK)
"We touched on the notorious List of people the nazi gestapo had compiled."

This was the "Sonderfahndungsliste G.B" ('Special Search List GB'). I came across this when researching how my grandparents fled to England in 1938, and wrote about it on my website:
Quote
"The "Special Search List GB" [...] was the Nazis' (SS, SD, Abwehr ?) list of "Enemies of the State". In the event of an invasion of Britain, special teams would be sent out to round up anyone on the list.
(Here is another name from the list, someone who also came from Vienna ...
  F114 Freud, Sigmund, Dr., Jude, 6.5.56 Freiburg (Mähren), London, RSHA II B5.)
The list compilers don't seem to have noticed, that Freud had already died… in 1939 ! 
A web-search (here in Germany) for 'Special Search List GB' gives me 451 entries.
Searching for "Sonderfahndungsliste G.B" gets me over 18.000 hits !
This is not the list you are looking for though, but I haven't seen any mentions of other lists.

For anybody interested, the list is described in detail here:
https://amgathering.org/2015/09/12171/weizmann-churchill-and-british-schindler-were-on-nazi-hit-list/
and in the article, it says a translation of the complete list is available here:
https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/hitlers-black-book

Steve, sorry I can't help more.
Do you know if this other list had an official name (german or english) ?

Good luck,
Bob

 
Title: Re: The WW2 Gestapo 'List'?
Post by: Steve G on Wednesday 06 February 19 18:06 GMT (UK)
Quote from: Berlin-Bob on Wednesday 06 February 19 17:56 GMT (UK)
Steve, sorry I can't help more.
Do you know if this other list had an official name (german or english) ?

No idea, Bob  :( It was in the back of a book listing ~ as I recall? ~ concentration camps. Can't even remember what it said about them, now. And, I gave the book to someone on a WW2 forum I'm no longer a member of.

Quite bugging. I probably bought the book on the strength of hearing it held The List. Was gutted, as I was sure it would have had Gypsy's on it. All I got was Winston Churchill.

Now, BD's told me there is a list I'd be interested in and I wouldn't know where to start looking.

Ding! I'll get back to BD and ask him if He remembers the name of it!  8)
Title: Re: The WW2 Gestapo 'List'?
Post by: whiteout7 on Thursday 07 February 19 10:34 GMT (UK)
There could well be a list somewhere

"In the first phase of the Second World War, the Nazis drew up lists of Romani individuals (many of them Romanichals) and persons with Romani ancestry from the United Kingdom to be interned and subjected to Porajmos in the event of the country's occupation." [citation needed]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanichal

"Under Adolf Hitler, a supplementary decree to the Nuremberg Laws was issued on 26 November 1935, classifying Gypsies as "enemies of the race-based state", thereby placing them in the same category as the Jews. "

Wonder how many Romanichals left to Britain just ahead of WW2 as almost refugees?





Title: Re: The WW2 Gestapo 'List'?
Post by: Steve G on Thursday 07 February 19 10:45 GMT (UK)
Scary as all hell, isn't it? Wouldn't be a lot of action on this board now, would there? Be like a plague of Wide Mouthed Frogs.
Title: Re: The WW2 Gestapo 'List'?
Post by: whiteout7 on Thursday 07 February 19 11:30 GMT (UK)
Quote from: Steve G on Thursday 07 February 19 10:45 GMT (UK)
Scary as all hell, isn't it? Wouldn't be a lot of action on this board now, would there? Be like a plague of Wide Mouthed Frogs.

I would have been on the list too :/

Amended: Might add here any Gypsy children rescued via Kindertransport in 1935 would also have made that list
Title: Re: The WW2 Gestapo 'List'?
Post by: Steve G on Thursday 07 February 19 12:10 GMT (UK)
Just heard back. To paraphrase BD; He reckons 'The Gestapo' (As we'd know them) would each compile their own lists, as they gleaned snippets of info', over a nice cup of tea, from POW's and such.

I'd guess these personal 'Little Black Books' must have then been pooled?


Ding!!! # 2!  Bob reckons his copy must now be with Reading? Okay; I'll get onto Reading and ask them if they could get me a copy!  :D

 They do this. They'll photo copy paper and post it out. Cost price too. Not like the NA!  :o

(https://i.postimg.cc/B6WFWvTg/Fish.jpg)


Title: Re: The WW2 Gestapo 'List'?
Post by: Steve G on Thursday 07 February 19 12:28 GMT (UK)
" This is an automatic reply to acknowledge receipt of your email to The Museum of English Rural Life. Messages are checked on every working day and forwarded to the relevant member of staff, who will respond as soon as possible. Please note that responses to research and collections enquiries can take some time, but you should expect a response within 20 working days. "
  8)
Title: Re: The WW2 Gestapo 'List'?
Post by: whiteout7 on Friday 08 February 19 03:37 GMT (UK)
There was a huge Roma concentration camp at  Montreuil-Bellay in France.
I would think the families detained there would have had English relatives too.
Apparently there are 473  families listed on a memorial there,
it would be interesting to see the names.

Frenchman Jacques Singot, a local historian apparently wrote a book about the camp with names of witnesses and survivors.   :'(

https://jacques-sigot.blogspot.com/2011/08/montreuil-bellay-le-camp-de.html
Title: Re: The WW2 Gestapo 'List'?
Post by: Mowsehowse on Friday 08 February 19 10:06 GMT (UK)
Quote from: Berlin-Bob on Wednesday 06 February 19 17:56 GMT (UK)
"We touched on the notorious List of people the nazi gestapo had compiled."

This is not the list you are looking for though, but I haven't seen any mentions of other lists.

Bob

Hello Bob - "you have not seen mention of any other lists" ...... So as far as you are aware there is no list surviving of GERMAN "enemies" of the State?

I would expect that my grandfather, who wrote "Konzern-Krach" and was editor of the German & Dutch versions of the financial times, would have been regarded by the Nazis as an enemy of the State, but I am finding it hard to compile a full biography for him.  :'(

Title: Re: The WW2 Gestapo 'List'?
Post by: Berlin-Bob on Friday 08 February 19 19:19 GMT (UK)
Hi mowsehouse,

" So as far as you are aware there is no list surviving of GERMAN "enemies" of the State?"

I'm sure there are lists (of all kinds), but what I should have said, was that I hadn't seen any other lists in my web-search results. Maybe someone can think of some better search terms to highlight what Steve is searching for. Even better, if anybody can come up with the "official" name for any of these lists - preferably the original german names - then I could do another search, from Germany, and see if we get lucky :)

On the other hand, Steve said it's in an appendix in a book, so ....

@ Steve,
if you do get hold of the book, please could you tell us the author and title and see if the author gives his sources for the appendix list. If the sources listed are in german, then a web search from Germany may find more details than searching from other countries.

Bob
Title: Re: The WW2 Gestapo 'List'?
Post by: Berlin-Bob on Friday 08 February 19 19:37 GMT (UK)
Quote from: mowsehowse on Friday 08 February 19 10:06 GMT (UK)
I would expect that my grandfather, who wrote "Konzern-Krach" and was editor of the German & Dutch versions of the financial times, would have been regarded by the Nazis as an enemy of the State, but I am finding it hard to compile a full biography for him.  :'(

A bit off-topic for Steve, but ....

Mowsehouse,

In case you don't already have this ....

Did your grandfather marry Marion Palfi ?
I quick search "Konzern-Krach" found a PDF about her, mentioning that she was married to him, and another search: "erich w abraham" "marion palfi" found them in google-books (https://books.google.de/books?id=3YTWCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA55&lpg=PA55&dq=%22erich+w+abraham%22+%22marion+palfi%22&source=bl&ots=5P-Zt2I4m2&sig=ACfU3U0D976azfzDar0go4yQn-zPCSe5Mg&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjEvJGR76zgAhVpMewKHYh0DNcQ6AEwAHoECAAQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22erich%20w%20abraham%22%20%22marion%20palfi%22&f=false)
It's a book on economics but it gives some biographic details as well.  The link takes you to page 55, so go back to the beginning of the article on page 47, and sift out some biographic details here and there.

regards,
Bob
Title: Re: The WW2 Gestapo 'List'?
Post by: Mowsehowse on Friday 08 February 19 20:46 GMT (UK)
Brilliant find, thank you Bob.... in fact Dorothea did collaborate with me while she was researching that, though there are some details of which I was unaware.

If a list of German "enemies" could be found, the date might be rather illuminating, so I will keep my fingers crossed, and thank you again Bob.
Title: Re: The WW2 Gestapo 'List'?
Post by: youngtug on Friday 08 February 19 20:59 GMT (UK)
Zigeuner buch; https://archive.org/details/zigeunerbuch01dill
Title: Re: The WW2 Gestapo 'List'?
Post by: Steve G on Friday 08 February 19 21:15 GMT (UK)
Quote from: Berlin-Bob on Friday 08 February 19 19:19 GMT (UK)
@ Steve,
if you do get hold of the book, please could you tell us the author and title .....


Book itself's long since gone, Bob. Bloke I gave it to hasn't been on the WW2 forum since 2012 either, so no asking him the details  :(

I did however, having just searched like a nutter on google, find the book!  ;D


(https://i.postimg.cc/9QWJYNCT/4168362164.jpg)


All a tad academic now though, being as how we should be getting the Gypsy list from Reading. That book, remember, just lists the politoico's.
Title: Re: The WW2 Gestapo 'List'?
Post by: Mowsehowse on Friday 08 February 19 21:15 GMT (UK)
This is remarkable - no idea what it says, but the title "Zigeuner buch" seems to translate as "Gypsy book". 

Thank you Young Tug..... is this what you were wanting Steve?
Title: Re: The WW2 Gestapo 'List'?
Post by: youngtug on Friday 08 February 19 21:40 GMT (UK)
Quote from: mowsehowse on Friday 08 February 19 21:15 GMT (UK)
This is remarkable - no idea what it says, but the title "Zigeuner buch" seems to translate as "Gypsy book". 

Thank you Young Tug..... is this what you were wanting Steve?

Probably not, I just thought it would be of interest, it is mentioned here;  http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ndw/
Title: Re: The WW2 Gestapo 'List'?
Post by: Steve G on Friday 08 February 19 23:13 GMT (UK)
Quote from: mowsehowse on Friday 08 February 19 21:15 GMT (UK)
Is this what you were wanting Steve?

 :o Not at all, as that deals with the First WW. But, dear god! What a shocking eye opener!

Nice one, Tuggist!
Title: Re: The WW2 Gestapo 'List'?
Post by: whiteout7 on Monday 11 February 19 06:31 GMT (UK)
Quote from: Steve G on Tuesday 05 February 19 19:07 GMT (UK)

But, Bob said there was Another list. One featuring just ordinary Gypsys and Jews. Mentioned there were a Lot of Gray's on it.


There was a Sinti family intered in WW2 by the surname of "Winter" from Germany/France. I do wonder if they were closely related to the "Winter" surnamed families that travelled and intermarried with the Grays  pre WW2 in England? I also wonder how many Romani Grays from England served in WW1?

"priests opened the marriage licence books and showed the SS which names were Sinti"