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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: what0101 on Wednesday 06 February 19 11:54 GMT (UK)
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Hello!
A while ago I got help (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=778290.msg6322485#msg6322485) translating this marriage record:
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634243#page/41/mode/1up
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kny/
I was told that the last line refers to a dispensation for consanguinity. This are my earliest Irish ancestors that I can trace, so it would be very helpful for me tracing them further to know how they were related. It appears to say 4th degree, so I assume that is first cousins. Am I on the right track?
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I Googled "degrees of consanguinity ireland" and found:
Relationships, through either blood (consanguinity) or marriage (affinity) were recorded, and marriage dispensations were granted, by "degree". A first degree relationship would indicate siblings; a second degree relationship would indicate first cousins; third degree meant second cousins; and fourth degree indicated third cousins.
http://www.islandregister.com/consanguinity.html
Thus Dr. Kelly’s dispensation for John and Mary Clarke recorded as 4th and 4th degree revealed they were third cousins who shared a common great-great-grandparent.
https://cotyroneireland.com/marriages/clarkejohnmary.html
There is lot more detail on both of those pages.
Amazing that they knew they were 3rd cousins. I spent years finding 3rd cousins, of course they were scattered all over the world by my generation.
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I'm getting very tangled up because I am finding many references to fourth degree of consanguinity being first cousins, and many saying it's third cousins. That's a big difference!
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I'm getting very tangled up because I am finding many references to fourth degree of consanguinity being first cousins, and many saying it's third cousins. That's a big difference!
I've also found contradictory information about degrees of consanguinity.
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https://cotyroneireland.com/marriages/clarkejohnmary.html
There is lot more detail on both of those pages.
That link to "Marrying Cousins & Catholic Church Research" has this: "In Canon Law the degree of relationship is the number of generational steps to the common ancestor".
Catholic Marriage Dispensations
www.ottawavalleyirish.com/2011/08/marital-dispensations.html
Catholic Encyclopedia (New Advent)
Consanguinity (in Canon Law)
www.newadvent.org/cathen/04264a.htm
Studying relationship charts which are on some of the sites helps to clarify.
It's pointed out on one site that priests didn't always work out relationships correctly.
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I'm getting very tangled up because I am finding many references to fourth degree of consanguinity being first cousins, and many saying it's third cousins. That's a big difference!
Marriage of first cousins is not generally allowed by Catholic Church. Papal dispensation is required.
I've browsed marriage register for parish of one of my families. There were plenty of 4th-4th degree, 3rd-3rd, 3rd-4th, even a few 2nd degree (2nd-3rd, 2nd-5th). I didn't find any 2nd-2nd which would have been a marriage of first cousins.
If you browse the marriage register for your ancestor's parish you will probably see other weddings marked 4th degrees of consanguinity.
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Thanks, this is interesting.
The site I was looking at was this one (http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2010/09/09/can-cousins-marry-in-the-church/), which is based on canon law and says that first cousins are fourth degree.
This chart on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consanguinity#/media/File:Table_of_Consanguinity_showing_degrees_of_relationship.svg) says the same, but also says that the method for counting changed in 1215. ??? ??? ???
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Thanks, this is interesting.
The site I was looking at was this one (http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2010/09/09/can-cousins-marry-in-the-church/), which is based on canon law and says that first cousins are fourth degree.
That's one I've read before and may have been what I was thinking of when I said in my reply #3 that information is contradictory. I found that explanation complicated.
I do know that Catholics are not supposed to marry their first cousins. Anglicans can. Dispensations for 1st cousin marriages are only supposed to be granted for serious reasons e.g. for the sake of peace which is why members of royal houses were granted them.
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It just seems strange to me that you'd have to get a dispensation for a 3rd cousin marriage. Third cousins are not very closely related, and it seems like in small communities in rural Ireland in the 1800s everyone would have been third cousins. Then again, I don't know anything about Catholicism nor rural Irish communities in the 1800s, so...
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It just seems strange to me that you'd have to get a dispensation for a 3rd cousin marriage. Third cousins are not very closely related, and it seems like in small communities in rural Ireland in the 1800s everyone would have been third cousins. Then again, I don't know anything about Catholicism nor rural Irish communities in the 1800s, so...
On the other hand, they would not be likely to obtain a dispensation for a 1st cousin marriage unless there was a grave reason for the marriage and without permission from the Vatican, which would have taken a long time and been expensive.
The priest also had to take into account any previous marriages and relationships between the families and set them out in the dispensation application. A parish priest could grant dispensations for more distant degrees of consanguinity; decisions on closer degrees had to be referred upwards and cost more.
I imagine working out all these relationships would have been part of the skill-set of a matchmaker. :)
Kilmovee is a rural parish in Mayo. Plenty of marriages involving 3rd and 4th degrees. A few 2x3 which I think is first cousin once removed.
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0137
Marriages 1824-1848 microfilm 04224/02
Marriages 1854-1880 microfilm 04224/05
1840
page 54; 20th Jan. Thos ? Gordon & Briget Grady 2x3
p. 55; 7th Feb. Ant? Andrew? Grady & Mary Kirins 2x3
p. 55; 17th Feb. Jas Dalton & Mary Forkan 3x3
p. 55; 27th Feb. Pat Duffy & Winy Duffy 3x3
p. 57; 2nd. March John Glavey? & Honor Kine 2x3
1841
page 60; 22nd. Feb. Michael Duffy & Winy Duffy 2x3
1856
2nd. Feb. Patrick Duffy & Maria Duffy 2x3 consan. (Written after this was "paid bishop".)
February was most popular month for weddings.
Duffy was a common name. I don't know if the Winy Duffy who married Feb. 1840 was the same woman who married a year later or if the Pat Duffy of 1840 and 1856 were the same man.
None of my Irish ancestors whose marriages were in church registers seem to have married relatives so I have no personal evidence to offer.
I wish the priests who conducted the marriages of my English Catholic ancestors had recorded degrees of consanguinity to give me some clues as to how they were related. I have 2 lines with recurring surnames, including 3 pairs of brides and grooms with same surnames.
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If we're making wishlists, I wish Ireland had adopted the Scottish method of including the maiden name of the mother and marriage date of the parents on birth records. These records are not easy to wrap my head around!
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It just seems strange to me that you'd have to get a dispensation for a 3rd cousin marriage.
You don't or rather they didn't. Dispensations are required for 2nd and 3rd degree consanguinity only. 4th degree consanguinity or higher does not require a dispensation.
There are reasons other than consanguinity for a dispensation.
I thought the reason for dispensation in this case might have been for a marriage in Advent but the wedding was early in November so was a few weeks before start of Advent. Lent and Advent are periods of penance and regular fasting; marriages are not supposed to be solemnized during those times, unless they are urgent. Hence the traditional popularity of Easter weddings and why there were so many in February, before Lent began. Kilmovee marriage register has a note about forbidden time (in Latin) next to marriages from late November to 1st week of Jan.
Another reason for a dispensation is a relaxation of the requirement for reading banns on 3 Sundays in bride's and groom's parishes. A dispensation from reading or publishing banns 3 times may be relaxed if the wedding has to take place quickly, for instance: if there is a child on the way; if one party, usually the husband, has to leave soon after the wedding. It's similar to a marriage licence issued in England in 18th & 19th centuries
Marriage Dispensation in the Catholic Church explains. It's about Quebec but most of it is relevant elsewhere. "It is very common for those about to emigrate to have a banns dispensation."
It has a simple table for working out consanguinity. :)
genprof.net/marriage-dispensations-in-the-catholic-church
I surmise that the dispensation in the 1836 marriage was not connected to the couple being related.
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If we're making wishlists, I wish Ireland had adopted the Scottish method of including the maiden name of the mother and marriage date of the parents on birth records. These records are not easy to wrap my head around!
Maiden name of mother is in Irish civil birth registers. Registration began 1864. Mother's maiden name is often in Catholic baptism register.
The most detailed record in a marriage register which I've seen was Swords, County Dublin. Both parents of groom and bride were named. Abodes of parents and witnesses were included.
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I'm back to this and have adjusted the image in Photoshop and can read a bit more...but I still don't know what it means. I'm interested in the dispensation part particularly, I know the witnesses, etc. now.
So at the bottom I see 4°x4° Eiutio gshus fuil
dispinsation
Any Latin readers willing to have another look?
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I looked at the register again as well.
I see it as "contio _lius fuit
dispensation "
The word I read as "contio" may be a contraction for the Latin word for consanguinity. I can't make out the letter before "lius". Freely translated it means a dispensation was obtained.
The last word on the bottom line seems to be the name of a townland, judging from the way other marriages are set out on same page.
Browsing entries on the same page and adjacent pages of registers is often helpful to become familiar with priest's handwriting and format. It didn't help in this case. I couldn't spot any other marriages with a note about consanguinity.
Fees varied depending on whether the decision was referred to parish priest or a higher official. The priest in charge of the marriage register had to balance the books and ensure he forwarded the correct amount to the bishop every quarter or half-year or whenever. The priest had to be certain that he'd collected the right number of half-crowns, 3 shillings & sixpences, or whatever the fee was. Some registers have a note "paid the bishop".
These 2 explain marriage dispensations from a family history point of view. They are written by Canadian researchers. They are easier to read and understand than the explanations of canon law on marriage in the Catholic Encyclopaedia and Catholic websites.
"The Concepts of Consanguinity and Age of Majority"
www.islandregister.com/consanguinity.html#consanguinity
It has a link to "Worksheet for Tracing Dispensations of Consanguinity" on the same website.
Quotation: "Remember that errors do exist in marriage records".
"Catholic Marriage Dispensations"
www.ottawavalleyirish.com/2011/08/marital-dispensations.html
This makes the same point that priests were not always correct in their calculations of degrees of relationship.
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P.S. to links I posted in reply #14.
Ottawa Valley Irish site has a link to an article "Some Notes on Marriage Dispensations in Roman Catholic Records" by Don MacDonald on his "The Brick Walls" website. It's part of an article he wrote for Island Register website (the other one I mentioned in reply #14). It's also a clarification of his article on "Island Register", in response to some questions and comments. He stresses that there may have been *many reasons for marriage dispensations. Examples of reasons: a minor whose parents were dead or too far away to contact; no Catholic church in the area in which to have banns read. There is a link to an exchange of correspondence in 1817 between a priest and bishop regarding a request for a dispensation on grounds of consanguinity and a follow-up piece on what happened to the young couple in question. "Dispensation Request from Father Angus MacEachan".
* From memory: there is a long list of reasons for dispensations in a Catholic text I've read previously.
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Thank you for your reply. I have been reading about dispensations and have been learning about the various kinds, which is why I wanted to revisit this one. Even though I cannot read it, I assume that the 4°x4° bit must mean it's cosanguinity and not another type, such as affinity or lack of banns, because only cosanguinity would have degrees mentioned, right?
Also, I do see what looks to be the same dispensation if you go one page up (earlier), it's in the upper left labeled #30. Maybe that's easier to read?
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Since I posted earlier on this thread, I have been told that 4th degree of consanguinity meant the marriage mates were first cousins. you count yourself as 1, your parent = 2, their sibling = 3, their child = 4.
The person who told me was making an educated guess, but it fits better with the records I have seen.
Modified Jun 23, 2019
This is not correct, see later posts by wexflier and maiden stone.
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Since I posted earlier on this thread, I have been told that 4th degree of consanguinity meant the marriage mates were first cousins. you count yourself as 1, your parent = 2, their sibling = 3, their child = 4.
The person who told me was making an educated guess, but it fits better with the records I have seen.
No, no no!
First cousin marriages were almost non-existant. Requiring actual Papal dispensation, which would be noted. I have only ever seen one.
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Some registers have a note "paid the bishop".
I think you will find that in most cases, registers with this notation were mensal parishes. That is, the bishop was (theoretically) the parish priest (PP), and his administrator (Adm) was paying the bishop, in his role as PP.
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Since I posted earlier on this thread, I have been told that 4th degree of consanguinity meant the marriage mates were first cousins. you count yourself as 1, your parent = 2, their sibling = 3, their child = 4.
The person who told me was making an educated guess, but it fits better with the records I have seen.
No, no no!
First cousin marriages were almost non-existant. Requiring actual Papal dispensation, which would be noted. I have only ever seen one.
then what are they?
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I think the second Latin word is salus, which can mean a variety of things, including safety, salvation, and well-being. I think the priest is indicating that they were dispensed, even though not technically required, to be "on the safe side", so to speak.
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Since I posted earlier on this thread, I have been told that 4th degree of consanguinity meant the marriage mates were first cousins. you count yourself as 1, your parent = 2, their sibling = 3, their child = 4.
The person who told me was making an educated guess, but it fits better with the records I have seen.
No, no no!
First cousin marriages were almost non-existant. Requiring actual Papal dispensation, which would be noted. I have only ever seen one.
then what are they?
As already indicated by others, 3rd cousins.
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then maybe the priest couldn't count, because the bride's father and the groom's mother had the same surname, married in 1869, in a rural area.
I've also seen a 1st cousin Catholic marriage in America. the couple were married in a different legal jurisdiction because their home area legally forbade 1st cousin marriage. But they were married by a priest, with a note in the record from a priest back home. I doubt they got a papal dispensation since they were as poor as dirt.
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then maybe the priest couldn't count, because the bride's father and the groom's mother had the same surname, married in 1869, in a rural area.
I've also seen a 1st cousin Catholic marriage in America. the couple were married in a different legal jurisdiction because their home area legally forbade 1st cousin marriage. But they were married by a priest, with a note in the record from a priest back home. I doubt they got a papal dispensation since they were as poor as dirt.
The marriage in question is in 1836, so just how the bride and grooms parents married in 1869 escapes me.
Authority to dispense could be delegated in remote mission territories. But that was not Ireland.
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I should have said I was referring to a different 1st cousin marriage I came across.
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One of the reasons for the consanguinity prohibition, is to guard against unfavourable genes being passed from both parents to any resulting children.
This is practised even in some indigenous tribes, where their custom prohibits 'marrying' anyone in the same tribe.
Dawn M
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Also, I do see what looks to be the same dispensation if you go one page up (earlier), it's in the upper left labeled #30. Maybe that's easier to read?
First word looks a bit like first word in Stack-Moloney marriage. Is the tall letter in the middle an elaborate t? First letter of 2nd word looks like s. Wexflyer may be right about "salus" . The only word I'm sure about in both is "fuit" (was), which is no help at all in understanding the sense.
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I agree with Wexflyer reply #18 about dispensations for 1st cousin marriages. They were only supposed to be granted for serious reasons.
See my replies #3, 4, 5, 7 and 9 and read the links. See also links in reply#14; both writers noted that priests didn't always get it right.
Correspondence between a priest and his bishop regarding a proposed 1st cousin marriage, from "Dispensation Request from Father Angus MacEachan 16th July 1817" on Don MacDonald's website, cited in my reply #15:
The priest "seeks bishop's permission to marry a couple who are 1st cousins, thus requiring a dispensation of the 2nd degree of consanguinity".
A translation from French of extracts from the bishop's reply:
"All of Mr MacDonald's arguments fail against my lack of power to dispense in the degrees in question …..
The Holy See delegated to me this power for a limited number of cases. That number has been exceeded. …. Advise him to submit his request directly to Rome. It is the only way he will obtain the desired dispensation."
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Well, I've been brought back to this by a notice that this topic was split into two (but I don't know what left and where it went).
When I was at RootsTech last year I went a talk about marriages in Irish records. The speaker was from eneclann.ie and very interesting.
In my notes from her talk, I wrote down that 4th degree is 2nd cousins and 3rd degree is 1st cousins.
I also followed up with the speaker after the conference to see if she'd give her opinion on this document, and she thinks it says:
in 4* & 4* Cont~s (Consanguinitis), et disp(o)nes fuit, ie the couple are related in the 4th degree of consanguinity, and was 'dispensed'
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"Marrying Cousins in the Catholic Church Research" (noted in reply #1 by oldohiohome
https://www.cotyroneireland.com/marriages/clarkejohnmary.html
"In Canon Law the degree of relationship is the number of steps to the common ancestor"
The common ancestor was a great-great-grandparent. As Wexflyer said (reply 22) they were 3rd cousins.
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This from the topic "Consanguinity in Canon Law" in "New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia"
Paragraphs headed "Mode of Calculation"
"In calculating the degree of consanguinity, special attention must be paid to three things, the line, the degree and the stock or root. The stock or root is the common ancestor ... from whom descend as from the nearest common bond the persons whose blood-relationship to be determined .... The blood relationships computed according to the distance from the stock whence it is derived and this is the rule by which degrees or steps on consanguinity are determined."
It then mentions similarities and differences between Roman civil law and canon law and different ways of computing degrees of relationships.
"But the Canon Law, in the collateral line of consanguinity, computes for marriage one series only of generations, and if the series are unequal, only the longer one. If the two series are equal, the distance is the number of degrees from the common stock. Thus brother and sister are in the first degree, first cousins in the second degree; uncle and niece in the second because the niece is 2 degrees from grandfather, who is the common stock."
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Thanks, this is interesting.
The site I was looking at was this one (http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2010/09/09/can-cousins-marry-in-the-church/), which is based on canon law and says that first cousins are fourth degree.
This chart on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consanguinity#/media/File:Table_of_Consanguinity_showing_degrees_of_relationship.svg) says the same, but also says that the method for counting changed in 1215. ??? ??? ???
Information on that first link to website Canon Law Made Easy conflicts with "New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia" in my last post. The question and inaccurate answer about cousins marrying is duplicated on Catholic Exchange website https://catholicexchange.com/can-cousins-marry-in-the-church
The chart on Wiki doesn't clarify anything imo.
There are different ways of calculating consanguinity. Greek and Russian Orthodox Churches have their methods.
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Even though I cannot read it, I assume that the 4°x4° bit must mean it's cosanguinity and not another type, such as affinity or lack of banns, because only cosanguinity would have degrees mentioned, right?
Dispensations of affinity were recorded in the same way except it would say "affinity" or an abbreviation for it.
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There's one word I can't quite make out, but the Latin reads
in 4o & 4o g[radu] con[sanguinita]tis […….] fuit dispensatum
in the 4th and 4th degree of consanguinity [……..] there was a dispensation given
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I'm not sure if the addition of my reply and question about the marriage of John Stapleton and Bridget Maher was the trigger to your responses, but am believing that it was (I can't find my actual reply post).
GR2 - were you responding to my post - and translating from their record?
If so, thanks.
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I'm not sure if the addition of my reply and question about the marriage of John Stapleton and Bridget Maher was the trigger to your responses, but am believing that it was (I can't find my actual reply post).
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