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Research in Other Countries => Immigrants & Emigrants - General => Topic started by: davidft on Wednesday 06 February 19 18:59 GMT (UK)
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If anyone has accces to outward passages records could they look up the following
Alfred Hollingsbee
Queensland, Australia, Passenger Lists, 1848-1912
If its the person I am interested in the event would most likely have taken place in the perod 1881-1891 with the person being born in 1861 in Kent.
Thank you
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Alfred Hollingsbee
Age - 25
Birth Year - abt 1861
Place of Origin - Kent, England
Ship Name - Dorunda
Port of Departure - London, England
Port of Arrival - Brisbane
Arrival Date - 13 Dec 1886
JJ
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Thank you that's him!
Much appreciated.
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Possible death record -
Alfred Hollingsbee
Death Date - 03 Jan 1944
Death Place - Queensland
Father's name - Henry
Mother's name - Harriet
Alfred's baptism shows his parents as Henry and Harriet so hopefully the above death record is correct.
JJ
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Yes they are his parents. His mother died in 1864 and father in 1866 so then it was off to the workhouse for him for a while. No doubt that's why he started afresh in Australia.
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And quite a sensational divorce case too!
www.trove.nla.gov.au.
shume
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Thanks for that, I had a look. Seems rather a silly reason for a divorce, guess there was more to it than the articles tell.
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Is there somewhere to look for this stuff? I am trying to find information on Stuart (Stewart) Glassford McDonald who arrived in Sydney about 1846-47 on a ship called the Gazelle. He was about 10 so would have been with his parents, John McDonald and Mary (nee Stuart). Any help gratefully appreciated, this has been an annoying dead end for a while. Geoff
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Information before or after his arrival - how did you find the ship's name?
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I have an 1887 hospital admission record where he gives Gazelle as his arrival ship. I have quite a bit of information on him in Australia (his wife, children, although no death record). I know only a little about his life before coming to Australia (he was born in Inverness about 1837) but a passenger list for the family's trip to Australia is what I am really after.
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How sure are you of his birth year, presumably not found on scotlandspeople?
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On the 1887 hospital admission he gives his age as 50. calculated from that.
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Different age, correct ship and year of arrival, from Ancestry,
Stuart/Stewart Mcdonald
Age: 23 (1829) Arrival year: 1845
Arrival Country: Australia Vessel Arrived In: Gazelle
Date of Admission/Photo: 1852
Gaol: Darlinghurst New South Wales, Australia
Record Type: Description Book
has warts on each thumb, height 5' 7", brown hair, blue eyes
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??
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01nj1/
Escaping from police custody. Gazelle named. Ticket of leave holder. Dray robbery. Age 25 in 1854. £5 reward for apprehension.
Was he a tailor?
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I have no indication that he was a tailor.
He married in 1857 in Sydney but headed north. They had nine children by 1874, all registered in northern NSW or Queensland.
He was mining for much of that time and in 1887 described himself as a labourer.
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What other information is on that marriage record, and have you found him in 1841 census in Scotland?
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The rootschat link that I gave to ancestry describes him as a ticket of leave holder - so came as a convict. (If the correct man)
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When did he start using Glasspole?
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Stuart McDonald and Margaret McNamara both lived in King Street, Sydney at the time of their marriage on 16 April 1857 at St Mary’s (Catholic) Cathedral, Sydney. Stuart said he was 20 years old and a stockman.
He would not be the first ex-convict to reinvent himself but Stewart/Stuart McDonald/Macdonald is not an unusual name.
I think there might be too many anomalies for him to be our man.
But thanks for your help.
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Middle name was Glassford, as shown on his marriage certificate. Sometimes this becomes Glassfurd.
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The rootschat link that I gave to ancestry describes him as a ticket of leave holder - so came as a convict. (If the correct man)
The ticket of leave would have been for his 1852 colonial conviction.
Debra :)
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If he was 20 when he married in 1857, he would be 15 when convicted in 1852. Possible I guess. The Gazelle was not a regular convict transport so having him offend in NSW works better.
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The man with the convictions in the early 1850s was born c1830. Are you sure your Stuart was only aged 20 in 1857? That is quite young for that time period. Do you have confirmation of his age from another source such as one of his children's birth certs?
On the 16th April, by special license, at Saint Mary's Cathedral, Sydney, by the Rev. John J. McClennan, Mr. Stuart McDonald, late of Inverness, Scotland, now of Moreton Bay, to Miss Margaret, daughter of Mr. Michael McNamara, of Ennis, County Clare, Ireland.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12995543
Debra :)
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He definitely gave his age as 20 at his wedding in 1857.
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He definitely gave his age as 20 at his wedding in 1857.
So who gave consent for a male minor to marry? IF 20 *he was not old enough to give his own consent... that m.c. image uploaded is not the current style, and a new purchase may be a tad costly, but it may be an option to check an enlarged snip of his then age as recorded by the clergy ....
JM *edit to make better sense ... addded 'he'
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I have edited my earlier post.
May I gently note that the info in several columns on that m.c. were NOT available to NSWBDM until decades after that marriage ... the church registers were made available in the 1910s as noted at the right hand margin notes. The handwriting in those columns is very different from the Clergyman' too
JM
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I'm not sure he would have needed permission in 1857 in NSW:
"Until 1823, the legal age in England for marriage was 21 years--for men and women. After 1823, a male could marry as young as fourteen without parental consent, and a girl at 12. Most girls, however, married between the ages of 18 and 23, especially in the upper classes."
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And the 1887 hospital admission gives his age as 50, which tallies with him being 20 in 1857. But your point is well made. It's the best information we have, but may not be 100% accurate I guess. Geoff
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I'm not sure he would have needed permission in 1857 in NSW:
"Until 1823, the legal age in England for marriage was 21 years--for men and women. After 1823, a male could marry as young as fourteen without parental consent, and a girl at 12. Most girls, however, married between the ages of 18 and 23, especially in the upper classes."
The English marriage laws had NO effect in NSW as from 19 July 1823, unless they specifically stated that they were to apply in NSW. This was a ruling by the NSW Chief Justice, Sir Francis Forbes. The date is a significant one, being one day after 18 July 1823, which refers to an English Act for amending laws respecting the solemnization of marriages, 4 Geo IV, c76
I can assure you that if he was not yet 21 years of age, he needed definitely needed permission to marry, but whether the clergy recorded it on the parish register or not is a different matter :)
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=648372.0
Re the tickets of leave - two are definitely for Colonial convictions...
The images of the butts for those Tickets of Leave uploaded to Ancestry are actually held by the NSW Archives and you can see their online indexes without charge or needing to access Ancestry. https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research
Ticket of Leave 54/36 (54 being the year, 1854)
Stewart MCDONALD, per the Ganges, and under ‘Remarks’ it reads: District: Goulburn; Tried: Col Bathurst 52. Those remarks indicate that the Ticket of Leave meant that he was allowed to remain in the Goulburn District of NSW and that he was serving a Colonial Sentence after being convicted at Bathurst in 1852,
NOTE this index has his ship of arrival as the GANGES…
Ticket of Leave 55/64 - same name, same ship, same reel at NSW Archives… Remarks … District Brisbane; Tried Bathurst QS 1852, So, allowed to remain in the Brisbane district of (then) NSW, and he had been tried at the Bathurst Quarter Sessions in 1852.
Here is the Keyword Search index. Check for a Stewart McDONALD with an alias in the Deposition Registers too….
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/keyname-search
JM
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Well done, that has answered two queries in one: the age of consent and the tickets of leave for colonial offences. I can only assume that, since it was only 10 years since emigration, one or both of his parents was still around to give permission (I have no death details for them).
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NSW Civil registrations for BDM commence 1 March 1856. The NSW BDM does hold some Early Church Records for Baptisms, Burials, Weddings which commence with the First Fleet arrivals.
You can search the Sands Directories for Sydney from 1858 without using the commercial websites ... the City of Sydney Archives include not just Sands, but their own Assessment Books, photos, maps etc... they are included on the Resources Board :
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0
JM
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Thanks for the BDM tip.
I think we have two Stuart/Stewart McDonalds. One was a convict who arrived on the Ganges and continued to misbehave. Perhaps his convict ticket of leave was extended when he committed colonial offences.
The other was a boy born Inverness about 1837 who arrived as a free settler on the Gazelle about 1847 with his parents and married in 1857.
Geoff
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Those two Tickets of Leave refer to Colonial Convictions, he was tried at Bathurst New South Wales in 1852.
JM
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The Ganges arrived in 1797. I have had a quick look at Trove for any other convict ships named Ganges, coming to NSW at other times but have not found any. Remembering of course that convictism had effectively ceased transporting to NSW in 1840.
JM
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And he was sent to trial at Orange for stealing from a house as well, I see. My only query was whether only convicts/ex-convicts were given tickets of leave after colonial offences, or whether a person born in the colony, for instance, would also be subject to a ticket of leave if convicted of a crime. Anyway, I'm 99% sure this is not our man. Thanks anyway, I always learn a lot in here.
Geoff
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No that seems to be the only Ganges voyage. Interestingly, there were no McDonalds among the convicts on the Ganges. He seemed to have a penchant for aliases (he had one in the Orange stealing case) so maybe he started out as someone else. I have found the Claim a Convict site the most reliable for searching for ships or convicts. You have to join, but it is free. https://www.hawkesbury.net.au/claimaconvict/index.php
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"Convicts" records held by the NSW Archives and uploaded to various commercial websites under partnership arrangements with NSW Archives include records of those transported to NSW and also those who either came free or were born in the colonies, and were found guilty in a NSW court of crimes committed in NSW .... 'Ticket of Leave' is not a form used only for those sentenced in Britain and transported to NSW, VDL or WA.... It is a form of Parole.
JM
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Got you. Thanks.
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Hi Geoff,
I'm not sure where you are based?
The NSW State Archives holds the Index to Vessels Arrived, 1837 - 1925, this has several voyages for the Gazelle in 1848 https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/searchhits_nocopy?id=49&ship_name=gazelle&year=&month=0 and the records are available at the Reading Room at the Western Sydney Records Centre.
Jo
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Thanks Jo,
I'm guessing he was on the ship arriving in 1845 or possibly the one on 2 May 1848. I think the later arrival in 1848 is likely to have been the ship returning from Tasmania or New Zealand or somewhere relatively close.
I am in Brisbane and my friend I am researching this with is not in Sydney either so we can't get to the NSW Archives.
As it happens, I am trying to get the inquest on the house fire that killed both my great grandparents which is held in the NSW Archives.
I have sent an ask the archivist request and hope to hear back soon. As I understand it the Archives won't copy things for you but will suggest someone who can copy things for a fee. Hopefully we can do that with a passenger list for the Gazelle as well. That's very helpful.
Geoff
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Hi Geoff,
He seems to be consistent with having arrived on the Gazelle in 1845.
NSW Gaol Description - 1852 - Stuart McDonald - per Gazelle 1845, on arrival = free, on entering gaol = free, native of Inverness, Protestant, labourer, admitted 3 Jul 1852 from Bathurst. Trial - 3 years hard labour in roads or public works of colony, Quarter Sessions - Jul 15 - Discharged to Sydney Gaol 24 Jul - Offence - horse stealing.
Darlinghurst Description Book - 1852 - Stuart McDonald, age 23, arrived 1845 on Gazelle, 5'7", stout, fresh complexion, brown hair, blue eyes, warts on thumbs, native of Inverness, a tailor.
Darlinghurst Gaol Entrance Book - Stewart McDonald, per Gazelle in 1845, condition on & entering gaol = bond, from Inverness, protestant, a tailor, admitted 4 Aug 1854 from Principal Supt. Convts Office, Purpose = For Cockatoo Island, Disposed of = forwarded 5 Aug 1854
NSW Convicts Records - Stewart McDonald, per Gazelle, 1845. Quarter Sessions Bathurst
15 Jul 1852, sentenced 3 years roads for horse stealing, came free, History:
2 Aug 1852 - Received from Darlinghurst Gaol
31 Aug 1852 - Ordered to Division A Class 3
22 Nov 1854 - Discharged to T. of Leave Scone
5 Aug 1854 - Received from Darlinghurst Gaol - Ticket of Leave cancelled per warrant p.S.C of 4 Aug 1854.
13 Oct 1854 - To serve a probation of 12 months from 4 April 1853. Let. P.S.C. No. 521/95 of date.
5 Feb 1855 - Discharged to Ticket of Leave. Moreton ???
NSW Police Gazettes - 8 Apr 1854 - District of Scone.
Escaping from custody of the police, Stewart McDonald, a ticket of leave holder for the Scone District, confined in the lock up there under a charge of dray robbery, escaped from custody of the Watch house Keeper, Constable James Evans, on the 4th instance. Description - Stewart McDonald, per ship Gazelle, age 25, trade tailor, height 5' 6 1/2 ", complexion ruddy and a little freckled, hair dark, eyes blueish, remarks - chest prominent, dark mole on left jaw, burnt scar inside right wrist. Constable Evans offers 5 pounds for his apprehension.
Jo :)
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That is very comprehensive. The wrong ship (Ganges) must have been in the papers JM saw.
I'm now reading this as, in summary: he arrived as a free man (boy) on the Gazelle in 1845, stole a horse and got into the criminal justice system in 1852, got a ticket of leave to Scone and absconded, was caught and given ticket of leave to Moreton Bay, which is why the newspaper report of his Sydney marriage in 1857 said he was from Moreton Bay. He was still with his wife Margaret when he was admitted to hospital in Brisbane in 1887 (age 50) and they had nine children, three of whom died at birth or as toddlers. The first was born at Chinchilla in Queensland nine months after the marriage, so Margaret had a long trip to make while pregnant with her first child.
Margaret died on 5 Feb 1911 at Gympie, Queensland. Five of her children were living. Stuart recovered in hospital in 1887 and was discharged. I don't know what happened to him after that. He's a work in progress!
Thanks everyone for your help.
Geoff
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I'm not sure he would have needed permission in 1857 in NSW:
"Until 1823, the legal age in England for marriage was 21 years--for men and women. After 1823, a male could marry as young as fourteen without parental consent, and a girl at 12. Most girls, however, married between the ages of 18 and 23, especially in the upper classes."
The English marriage laws had NO effect in NSW as from 19 July 1823, unless they specifically stated that they were to apply in NSW. This was a ruling by the NSW Chief Justice, Sir Francis Forbes. The date is a significant one, being one day after 18 July 1823, which refers to an English Act for amending laws respecting the solemnization of marriages, 4 Geo IV, c76
I can assure you that if he was not yet 21 years of age, he needed definitely needed permission to marry, but whether the clergy recorded it on the parish register or not is a different matter :)
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=648372.0
Re the tickets of leave - two are definitely for Colonial convictions...
The images of the butts for those Tickets of Leave uploaded to Ancestry are actually held by the NSW Archives and you can see their online indexes without charge or needing to access Ancestry. https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research
Ticket of Leave 54/36 (54 being the year, 1854)
Stewart MCDONALD, per the Ganges, and under ‘Remarks’ it reads: District: Goulburn; Tried: Col Bathurst 52. Those remarks indicate that the Ticket of Leave meant that he was allowed to remain in the Goulburn District of NSW and that he was serving a Colonial Sentence after being convicted at Bathurst in 1852,
NOTE this index has his ship of arrival as the GANGES…
Ticket of Leave 55/64 - same name, same ship, same reel at NSW Archives… Remarks … District Brisbane; Tried Bathurst QS 1852, So, allowed to remain in the Brisbane district of (then) NSW, and he had been tried at the Bathurst Quarter Sessions in 1852.
Here is the Keyword Search index. Check for a Stewart McDONALD with an alias in the Deposition Registers too….
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/keyname-search
JM
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That is very comprehensive. The wrong ship (Ganges) must have been in the papers JM saw.
I'm now reading this as, in summary: he arrived as a free man (boy) on the Gazelle in 1845, stole a horse and got into the criminal justice system in 1852, got a ticket of leave to Scone and absconded, was caught and given ticket of leave to Moreton Bay, which is why the newspaper report of his Sydney marriage in 1857 said he was from Moreton Bay. He was still with his wife Margaret when he was admitted to hospital in Brisbane in 1887 (age 50) and they had nine children, three of whom died at birth or as toddlers. The first was born at Chinchilla in Queensland nine months after the marriage, so Margaret had a long trip to make while pregnant with her first child.
Margaret died on 5 Feb 1911 at Gympie, Queensland. Five of her children were living. Stuart recovered in hospital in 1887 and was discharged. I don't know what happened to him after that. He's a work in progress!
Thanks everyone for your help.
Geoff
I
Geoff, I have not sighted any papers, I typed up info from the online INDEX. .... which points to actual records, but is only an index.... not the actual document ....
JM
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Sorry, I should have said the indexes that JM saw must have had the name of the ship incorrect.
You made it perfectly clear that the Ganges was on the index, and that is what you were going on.
Geoff
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From the 1857 m.c., noticing the information in various columns was not entered in the civil until 1911.... .... so those later details are based on someone, yes ....an experienced someone working on that reconciliation project for many of their m.c.s ... but perhaps they are reading through ink bleeds or faded or torn pages ... that 'new' handwriting is printing, very modern style.... not at all typical of the 1850s or 1910s
JM
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.....
I am in Brisbane and my friend I am researching this with is not in Sydney either so we can't get to the NSW Archives.
As it happens, I am trying to get the inquest on the house fire that killed both my great grandparents which is held in the NSW Archives.
I have sent an ask the archivist request and hope to hear back soon. As I understand it the Archives won't copy things for you but will suggest someone who can copy things for a fee. ......
There are a number of RChatters who go to the Archives at Kingswood. Perhaps you could ask for some direct help with some lookups there from : https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=703011.0
NSW Archives definitely do offer a copy service on a number of their Archives. https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/copy-services
JM
ADD
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/inquests-coronial-records-guide
and 1908 for the fire Inquest, Lockhart... see
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=803142.0
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Geoff the only issue I can see is his age in the criminal records have him born c1829, which is at odds with his marriage certificate - I wonder if 28 was mistranscribed as 20 on the copy that you have been given?
Jo :)
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https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/mariners-and-ships-australian-waters-website
From Launceston, (Tasmania) to Sydney (New South Wales) arriving October 1845, Gazelle … here is the image http://marinersandships.com.au/1845/10/media/020gaz.gif NONE surnamed McDonald.
From Calcutta (Sub-continent) to Hobart Town (Tasmania) and then to Port Jackson (Sydney NSW) arriving May 1848 ... none as McDONALD
http://marinersandships.com.au/1848/05/media/001gaz.gif
From Hobart to Sydney Nov 1849 none as McDonald
http://marinersandships.com.au/1849/11/media/384gaz.jpg
From Adelaide to Sydney July 1851 none as McDonald
http://marinersandships.com.au/1851/07/media/022gaz.jpg
Perhaps they landed in SA or VDL and transhipped to Sydney.
Are you sure the parents migrated? I have seen unaccompanied children, without literacy or numeracy skills, aged 10 and thereabouts on passenger lists in the 1840s and 1850s... half way around the globe ....
JM
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This is the 1887 hospital admission which says he has been in the colony 40 years, came on the Gazelle, is aged 50, married at 20.
Which seemed to tie in with the marriage certificate and with him coming here at the age of 10.
It says his father is dead, but not whether he died in Scotland or Australia.
It's possible Stuart came alone, or with his mother as a widow or with a stepfather, I guess. In which case they might be listed under a different name.
But there were obviously very few passengers on the Gazelle and there were some girls in those list you showed me, but no boys.
The further we look and the more information we get from kind Rootschatters, the more confusing it seems to get.
But thanks for all your help.
Geoff
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Could a 10-year-old have been a cabin boy and not listed among the passengers?
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I am deleting, too many errors .... I will stay on the theme though...
The second part of that document .... it refers to the patient's son John who died while a patient in the hospital, and John's DAD was a Wine Merchant. There is other family history info too, which I had mis-read and now deleted. I leave it to you to transcribe, gives locations, maiden names etc.
JM
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I don't know who the next patient is or how to find out so that is wasted on me, I'm afraid. His wife Margaret Macnamara (matches Sydney marriage certificate) is at Gympie. She died there some years later (1911). Stuart is a drifter. Each of the children was born in a different place, almost. He was living in the open in Brisbane when he got sick and went to hospital. But he spent most of his life living in a tent or just sleeping under the stars, it seems.
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The image you have uploaded.... it seems to me that lower half of your image... gives information about your chap's son named John McDonald... So the upper half gives info about his living children and the lower half about his deceased children ....
I wonder who was a wine merchant...
JM
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No, I think you might be misreading it.
He lists his three living children.
Then Issue dead is left blank (although he had three children who died young, well before then).
Then it asks for his father, who is John McDonald, a wine merchant. On his marriage cert he says his father is John McDonald but describes him as a shipping agent. Perhaps he imported and sold wine at various times.
His mother is Mary Stewart, as it is on the marriage certificate.
His first son was named John. He was born c 1858 ans we can assume he has died before 1887 (no death date found).
You had me confused there for a moment!
Geoff
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:)
Yes.
I have been on my e reader .... it is an experience to look at that image on the e reader..... as I don't know if I could 'split screen' to type up with one finger while zooming in/out on the image .... ::) thanks for sorting that .... it would have bothered me as I am not near my puter...
JM