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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Tipperary => Topic started by: NewHudsonRyans on Wednesday 06 February 19 21:41 GMT (UK)
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I've been puzzling over this for years. My g-grandparents emigrated in 1865 to Pennsylvania. I know that the famine was felt in Tipperary but that it was essentially over by the end of the 1840s, so their emigration was not compelled by that.
In Pennsylvania my g-grandfather worked in a coal mine along with his brother-in-law Thomas Lynch, who had brought his family in 1859 from Lancashire in the UK where he also was a miner. At this time the coal fields in this part of Pennsylvania were just being developed and I wonder whether the families decided to go there, to get in on the ground floor.
My g-grandmother outlived her husband by 20 years but unfortunately she died (as a result of the so-called Spanish Flu) a few years before my dad was born, so he never had a chance to ask her, and apparently no information was passed down by his father either.
So it's a mystery; was there some event in Tipperary in the mid 1860s that might explain why they left? I expect they were tenant farmers so it was quite a lifestyle change.
-- Mike
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With emigration it may help to think of "pull factors" as well as "push factors". It's quite common with people I've looked at to follow where relatives have already gone. Although the work would have been tough and quite a change from agriculture, if it provided a steady wage, that may have been attractive, depending how well farming was doing at the time.
Drosybont
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Read the section on emigration on Irish Genealogy Toolkit
https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com
Genealogy>Emigration
Page 2 about emigration in 19th century. It says there were 3 distinct phases.
1815-1845: 1 million
1846-1855: 2.5 million
1856-1914: 4 million
It's pointed out that these figures are probably an underestimation as it's difficult to ascertain how many left and settled in Britain.
There is a chart, arranged by province and county for the decade 1851-1860. Total for Tipperary for the decade was 80,000. Approx. 32,000 left 1851-3, subsequent years annual numbers were in single-figure thousands.
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I've been puzzling over this for years. My g-grandparents emigrated in 1865 to Pennsylvania. I know that the famine was felt in Tipperary but that it was essentially over by the end of the 1840s, so their emigration was not compelled by that.
So it's a mystery; was there some event in Tipperary in the mid 1860s that might explain why they left? I expect they were tenant farmers so it was quite a lifestyle change.
-- Mike
System of tenant farming and landholding changed after the Famine. Until then land had been subdivided between adult sons - hence the dependence on potatoes. Post-Famine, one son took over the land from his father. Other sons had to look elsewhere to make a living. Some managed by working in Britain, in either seasonal or permanent jobs. Those in seasonal or short-term jobs might return to Ireland when they had no work in Britain. Some chose emigration.
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What was her name?
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Read the section on emigration on Irish Genealogy Toolkit
https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com
Genealogy>Emigration
Page 2 about emigration in 19th century. It says there were 3 distinct phases.
1815-1845: 1 million
1846-1855: 2.5 million
1856-1914: 4 million
It's pointed out that these figures are probably an underestimation as it's difficult to ascertain how many left and settled in Britain.
There is a chart, arranged by province and county for the decade 1851-1860. Total for Tipperary for the decade was 80,000. Approx. 32,000 left 1851-3, subsequent years annual numbers were in single-figure thousands.
That's interesting information. I haven't see these figures before.
But they raise more questions. For example, emigration from Tipperary decreased sharply between 1857 and 1858, but increased 18% from 1858 to 1859, and by 33% from 1859 to 1860. I wonder what caused the decrease and subsequent increase.
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What was her name?
G-grandfather: Michael Ryan, born circa 1816.
G-grandmother: Bridget Lynch, born January 1834. Her brothers: Thomas (b. 1832) and Patrick (b. circa 1830), possibly also William and John. Her father: Michael Lynch (b. circa 1800). Mother: Margaret Butler (b. circa 1800).
Three families Michael Ryan/Bridget Lynch, Thomas Lynch/Margaret Carty, and Patrick Lynch/Elizabeth Keyes, all emigrated to northern Pennsylvania by 1865.
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Read the section on emigration on Irish Genealogy Toolkit
https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com
Genealogy>Emigration
Page 2 about emigration in 19th century. It says there were 3 distinct phases.
That's interesting information. I haven't see these figures before.
But they raise more questions. For example, emigration from Tipperary decreased sharply between 1857 and 1858, but increased 18% from 1858 to 1859, and by 33% from 1859 to 1860. I wonder what caused the decrease and subsequent increase.
Looking again at the chart, figures for Tipperary seem to mirror the pattern for the rest of Munster. Each province had its' own pattern.
The page "Irish immigration to America 1846-early 20th century" on Irish Genealogy Toolkit suggests 2 factors influencing fluctuations, first a downturn of industrial expansion U.S. in mid 1850s and secondly steamships.
"Steamship Competition
After 1855 the tide of Irish immigration levelled off. However the continuing steady numbers encouraged ship builders to construct bigger vessels. ….. shipowners began to realise economic advantages of specialising in steerage passengers." Conditions onboard improved, fares were often lower than on sailing ships and voyage times reduced to a fortnight. "The concept of Irish immigration to America …. seemed less permanent."
(My English-born aunt's Irish grandparents went to U.S. for a few years in 1860s, had 2 sons there, one my aunts father, then crossed the Atlantic again and settled in England.)
Economic conditions in U.S. and steamships were only 2 factors. As Drosybont said in reply #1 you have to think of "push and pull" factors. Emigration/immigration/migration are complex. There are no simple answers. One has to consider: economic conditions and employment opportunities in Ireland, Britain, Canada, U.S.A., Australia; transport (costs, time, convenience); existing Irish communities in the destination countries; politics; religion.
There's plenty written about the subject.
Many Irish newspapers are online and extracts from some are on various websites. These are interesting for contemporary accounts of events. You need to be aware of political bias of some newspapers when reading them.
See also the pages on Irish immigration to Britain on Irish Genealogy Toolkit. Most convenient, quickest and cheapest choice was to work on the British mainland.
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I've been puzzling over this for years. My g-grandparents emigrated in 1865 to Pennsylvania. I know that the famine was felt in Tipperary but that it was essentially over by the end of the 1840s, so their emigration was not compelled by that.
So it's a mystery; was there some event in Tipperary in the mid 1860s that might explain why they left? I expect they were tenant farmers so it was quite a lifestyle change.
-- Mike
System of tenant farming and landholding changed after the Famine. Until then land had been subdivided between adult sons - hence the dependence on potatoes. Post-Famine, one son took over the land from his father. Other sons had to look elsewhere to make a living. Some managed by working in Britain, in either seasonal or permanent jobs. Those in seasonal or short-term jobs might return to Ireland when they had no work in Britain. Some chose emigration.
This is another mystery. My g-grandfather was born circa 1816 according to his death certificate, although I know these dates sometimes have only a tenuous relation to the truth. Anyway if true, he would have been in his late 40s when he emigrated.
I've looked at Griffith's and revision books for the townlands surrounding Cooneen (in Dolla civil parish) up until the late 1800s looking for my g-grandfather and possible siblings. I really can't find a Ryan family listed with him as the tenant during the period after he married (1859) until they emigrated. Now it could be that he and his wife were living with one of his or her relatives, but as far as I know that's not possible to tell from extant documentation.
I also cannot find Bridget Lynch's father Michael, who emigrated with them in 1865, anywhere nearby in Griffith's from the 1840s through 1865.
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In Pennsylvania my g-grandfather worked in a coal mine along with his brother-in-law Thomas Lynch, who had brought his family in 1859 from Lancashire in the UK where he also was a miner. At this time the coal fields in this part of Pennsylvania were just being developed and I wonder whether the families decided to go there, to get in on the ground floor.
Have you researched mining linked to migration?
The Mining Heritage Trust of Ireland
There is a mining database project Find Your Mining Ancestors
Mining and Migration
https://www.glensoflead.com *
"As with the Cornish who worked with the Irish in mines across 18th and 19th-century Ireland, Irish mineworkers were also highly mobile, moving from one mining field to another as the fortunes of the industry waxed and waned."
Cornishmen were often the mine-captains.
"Networks of Metalliferous Mining Migration in the Nineteenth Century Transatlantic World"
"Miners in Migration: The case of Nineteenth Century Irish and Irish-American Copper Mines" by Timothy O'Neil. (2001) Irish-American Cultural Institute vol. 36. Project Muse.
https://muse.jhu.edu/article/667014/pdf
Cornish tin mining declined from 1840s.
Many Irish miners went to Cumberland and Lancashire in North-West England or Yorkshire, Durham and other counties of North-East England and to Scotland. It's possible that some Munster miners may have gone to Welsh mines or to mines in South-West England.
See website Cumbrian Irish. Many lived in the village of Cleator Moor.
Edit* link doesn't work. Try googling that and other topic titles.
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Emigration from 1850. Encyclopedia of Irish history and Culture https://www.encyclopedia.com
1850-1854 when most migrants still responded to the Great Famine's immediate effects.
1855 average migration began to decline to pre-Famine levels.
"About two-fifths of overseas migrants left Munster, with another 13% from Connacht and 23% each from Leinster and Ulster" (I'm not sure to which period these statistics relate.)
"In terms of 1851 population, Munster was over-represented among overseas emigrants".
(N.B. a lot of Ulster people went to Scotland.)
****
31% of Irish immigrants to New Zealand 1853-1870 were from Munster.
Some NZ immigrants had gone there from Australia.
U.K. census 1871: 26% of Irish-born were from Munster.
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System of tenant farming and landholding changed after the Famine. Until then land had been subdivided between adult sons - hence the dependence on potatoes. Post-Famine, one son took over the land from his father. Other sons had to look elsewhere to make a living. Some managed by working in Britain, in either seasonal or permanent jobs. Those in seasonal or short-term jobs might return to Ireland when they had no work in Britain. Some chose emigration.
This is another mystery. My g-grandfather was born circa 1816 according to his death certificate, although I know these dates sometimes have only a tenuous relation to the truth. Anyway if true, he would have been in his late 40s when he emigrated.
I've looked at Griffith's and revision books for the townlands surrounding Cooneen (in Dolla civil parish) up until the late 1800s looking for my g-grandfather and possible siblings. I really can't find a Ryan family listed with him as the tenant during the period after he married (1859) until they emigrated. Now it could be that he and his wife were living with one of his or her relatives, but as far as I know that's not possible to tell from extant documentation.
I also cannot find Bridget Lynch's father Michael, who emigrated with them in 1865, anywhere nearby in Griffith's from the 1840s through 1865.
They would only have been included in Griffiths' Valuation if they were property holders.
Have you looked for them on U.K. 1851 & 1861 census? You said in your opening post that Thomas Lynch was a miner in Lancashire before he emigrated in 1859. Were the others miners? Plenty of coal mines in Lancashire, Yorkshire, Durham, English Midlands, Scotland, Wales; iron-ore, copper and slate in Cumberland; slate in Wales; &c. There was work in Lancashire and Cumberland for wives, daughters and young sons in cotton and linen mills and in woollen mills in Yorkshire. An Irish miner with my surname moved from Scotland to County Durham at this time. Labouring jobs building railways, roads, houses &c. were easy to get too. Irish people were mobile. Travel across the Irish Sea and on railways was cheap.
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In Pennsylvania my g-grandfather worked in a coal mine along with his brother-in-law Thomas Lynch, who had brought his family in 1859 from Lancashire in the UK where he also was a miner. At this time the coal fields in this part of Pennsylvania were just being developed and I wonder whether the families decided to go there, to get in on the ground floor.
Have you researched mining linked to migration?
The Mining Heritage Trust of Ireland
There is a mining database project Find Your Mining Ancestors
Mining and Migration
https://www.glensoflead.com *
"As with the Cornish who worked with the Irish in mines across 18th and 19th-century Ireland, Irish mineworkers were also highly mobile, moving from one mining field to another as the fortunes of the industry waxed and waned."
Cornishmen were often the mine-captains.
"Networks of Metalliferous Mining Migration in the Nineteenth Century Transatlantic World"
"Miners in Migration: The case of Nineteenth Century Irish and Irish-American Copper Mines" by Timothy O'Neil. (2001) Irish-American Cultural Institute vol. 36. Project Muse.
https://muse.jhu.edu/article/667014/pdf
Cornish tin mining declined from 1840s.
Many Irish miners went to Cumberland and Lancashire in North-West England or Yorkshire, Durham and other counties of North-East England and to Scotland. It's possible that some Munster miners may have gone to Welsh mines or to mines in South-West England.
See website Cumbrian Irish. Many lived in the village of Cleator Moor.
Edit* link doesn't work. Try googling that and other topic titles.
Yes, I've looked into Tipperary mining. In the early 1800s there were copper and silver mines near Newport, southwest of Nenagh (this town is close to Templederry, where my g-grandparents' church was located). I think the records I've seen were in Abington civil parish. A Michael Lynch was living near there in Griffith's.
Of course there are coal mines in Ballingarry, about 35 miles east of Templederry.
At some point in the past I found a contact knowledgeable about miner records in Tipperary, and he told me that unfortunately there are not many extant records of miners' names from the mid 19th century.
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System of tenant farming and landholding changed after the Famine. Until then land had been subdivided between adult sons - hence the dependence on potatoes. Post-Famine, one son took over the land from his father. Other sons had to look elsewhere to make a living. Some managed by working in Britain, in either seasonal or permanent jobs. Those in seasonal or short-term jobs might return to Ireland when they had no work in Britain. Some chose emigration.
This is another mystery. My g-grandfather was born circa 1816 according to his death certificate, although I know these dates sometimes have only a tenuous relation to the truth. Anyway if true, he would have been in his late 40s when he emigrated.
I've looked at Griffith's and revision books for the townlands surrounding Cooneen (in Dolla civil parish) up until the late 1800s looking for my g-grandfather and possible siblings. I really can't find a Ryan family listed with him as the tenant during the period after he married (1859) until they emigrated. Now it could be that he and his wife were living with one of his or her relatives, but as far as I know that's not possible to tell from extant documentation.
I also cannot find Bridget Lynch's father Michael, who emigrated with them in 1865, anywhere nearby in Griffith's from the 1840s through 1865.
They would only have been included in Griffiths' Valuation if they were property holders.
Have you looked for them on U.K. 1851 & 1861 census? You said in your opening post that Thomas Lynch was a miner in Lancashire before he emigrated in 1859. Were the others miners? Plenty of coal mines in Lancashire, Yorkshire, Durham, English Midlands, Scotland, Wales; iron-ore, copper and slate in Cumberland; slate in Wales; &c. There was work in Lancashire and Cumberland for wives, daughters and young sons in cotton and linen mills and in woollen mills in Yorkshire. An Irish miner with my surname moved from Scotland to County Durham at this time. Labouring jobs building railways, roads, houses &c. were easy to get too. Irish people were mobile. Travel across the Irish Sea and on railways was cheap.
Yes, I've looked at the 1851 and 1861 UK censuses. I did find Thomas Lynch and his family living in the town of Wigan, County Lancashire. I know that those mines began to decline in the latter part of the 19th century which might explain why the family relocated to Pennsylvania, where the coal fields were being discovered.
One of the Lynch descendants became relatively wealthy after emigration and the family is described in one of those "Who's who" books that were popular in the US at least in the late 1800s. In that description, Michael Lynch's daughter briefly mentions Michael Ryan as an "miner, deceased", and hardly mentions her father at all.