RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: carom on Wednesday 06 February 19 23:12 GMT (UK)
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My uncle Corporal David George Porter 1924-1987.
I know he served in a tank regiment as his father had done in WW1.
He gave me a cloth badge, cream background with a black rat, from this I assume he was in 4th armoured brigade. I also remember him mentioning going into France shortly after D-day.
Given his age I think he would have served from 1942-45?
He never married, so no next of kin, I would have to pay£30 plus cost of a death cert.
Looking at the govuk site it seems the amount of info you get is variable.
My question to fellowrootschatters who have bought records is how
detailed/useful is the info?
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In my case the MoD were really helpful and provided a very comprehensive record.
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I bought my father's service record a few years ago although I knew it wasn't going to be wildly exciting. He had an easy time compared to many people - he originally joined The Queen's Royal Regiment (West Surrey) but after several spells in hospital with severe bronchitis, he was transferred to the Catering Corps.
I still found it interesting though, just finding out where he'd trained and how long he was stationed in Italy, and also that he'd gone AWOL from camp (in England) for a few days!
My father's record was about six pages long even though he didn't see any action, so I would expect your uncle's record to be longer and more interesting!
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Although I'm in NZ, getting my Father's WW2 RNZAF War record was incredibly useful for me! There were some things in there that were previously unknown to me, but they were able to remind my Mum of things he told had her about his time in Suva, Fiji.
For instance, (and I've posted this story many times before ( simply because I love it). Briefly, his 24 hr Demob leave when WW2 ended, was in September 1944. Due to travel restrictions, and the distance involved, he had to hitchhike part of the way, and needed 2 changes of train. In fact, he was only home for 4 hrs, before he had to journey back to camp! After he died in 1973, My Mum had told me I had been conceived during that 4 hrs! After my Mum Died, I told my brothers that special story, and they simply didn't believe me! I had just started doing my FH by then, and had recently purchased his WAR Record!
1. The 24 Hr Demob date of leave was recorded early September.
2. My birth date was mid July 1945! Woohoo - YAY, Did I enjoy delivering that wee bit of news to my
2 big brothers!! 😍😍😍😜😜 I sent them both a copy!
So yes, just do it, you never know what you're going to discover! 😂😂
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Thanks for the replies, you've convinced me to go ahead. Had been dithering as it's quite expensive, but I suppose someone has to manually retrieve the record.
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I'd like to apply for my recently deceased fathers records, but his third wife is still alive, doesn't like me and would never give me permission.
I think that would mean I would not get much detail?
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I'd like to apply for my recently deceased fathers records, but his third wife is still alive, doesn't like me and would never give me permission.
I think that would mean I would not get much detail?
Lisa, you could try applying anyway. My Dad's wife was still alive but I hadn't had contact with her for many years when I applied for my Dad's record. Strictly speaking, she was next-of-kin and I shouldn't have been allowed his record, but they obviously didn't check. Having said that, my Dad had been deceased for about 15 years when I applied, and his wife was 17 years younger than him. They probably assumed she was about the same age as him and therefore deceased too.
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I'd love to see my father's national service record from the late 1940s, but £30 is a bit steep. I think they'd make a lot more money if they made them £10.
Martin
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I'd like to apply for my recently deceased fathers records, but his third wife is still alive, doesn't like me and would never give me permission.
I think that would mean I would not get much detail?
You are second on the list Lisa. You could still go ahead and apply, marking yourself as second next of kin and include a note explaining the situation (maybe omit that she doesn't like you and would not give her permission, but rather say you do not have contact with her if that is true?).
I have no idea if, given the circumstances, they would issue you the full service record. It must be a frustrating situation for you, and a bit unfair that you, as his child, need permission from someone who (for all intents and purposes) you are not related to, to obtain your own father's records.
Alternatively you could do as Sandy did? Maybe you misunderstood the nok requirements? ;) Maybe you thought your mother, as his spouse, would be nok and she is deceased? (is she?)
Otherwise you could apply as a "General Enquirer" for the reduced info records (which doesn't seem to include much). I could also apply for your father's records under this category if I could get a copy of his d/c. :-\
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I'd like to apply for my recently deceased fathers records, but his third wife is still alive, doesn't like me and would never give me permission.
I think that would mean I would not get much detail?
You are second on the list Lisa. You could still go ahead and apply, marking yourself as second next of kin and include a note explaining the situation (maybe omit that she doesn't like you and would not give her permission, but rather say you do not have contact with her if that is true?).
I have no idea if, given the circumstances, they would issue you the full service record. It must be a frustrating situation for you, and a bit unfair that you, as his child, need permission from someone who (for all intents and purposes) you are not related to, to obtain your own father's records.
Alternatively you could do as Sandy did? Maybe you misunderstood the nok requirements? ;) Maybe you thought your mother, as his spouse, would be nok and she is deceased? (is she?)
Otherwise you could apply as a "General Enquirer" for the reduced info records (which doesn't seem to include much). I could also apply for your father's records under this category if I could get a copy of his d/c. :-\
My mum is still alive. She was about 12 years younger than my father, the third wife is 16 years younger than him (he does seem to have favoured younger women for wives!)
It has occurred to me to "misread" the form, but I'd be so worried about getting into trouble. It just doesn't seem fair that as his only child I can only have a very basic record.
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I applied for the record of my mum's first husband (he died just after WW2); I had tried to find any family but some siblings had died in the Blitz, parents were now dead and could not confirm any others. I explained the situation and got a very full record; think it was about 20 pages or so.
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I'd love to see my father's national service record from the late 1940s, but £30 is a bit steep. I think they'd make a lot more money if they made them £10.
Martin
They don’t want to make money, Martin. They just want to get on with their main job of providing a service to the Army and that won’t be helped by increasing the number of requests from family historians etc, hence the £30 charge.
Imber
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I'd like to apply for my recently deceased fathers records, but his third wife is still alive, doesn't like me and would never give me permission.
I think that would mean I would not get much detail?
You are second on the list Lisa. You could still go ahead and apply, marking yourself as second next of kin and include a note explaining the situation (maybe omit that she doesn't like you and would not give her permission, but rather say you do not have contact with her if that is true?).
I have no idea if, given the circumstances, they would issue you the full service record. It must be a frustrating situation for you, and a bit unfair that you, as his child, need permission from someone who (for all intents and purposes) you are not related to, to obtain your own father's records.
Alternatively you could do as Sandy did? Maybe you misunderstood the nok requirements? ;) Maybe you thought your mother, as his spouse, would be nok and she is deceased? (is she?)
Otherwise you could apply as a "General Enquirer" for the reduced info records (which doesn't seem to include much). I could also apply for your father's records under this category if I could get a copy of his d/c. :-\
My mum is still alive. She was about 12 years younger than my father, the third wife is 16 years younger than him (he does seem to have favoured younger women for wives!)
It has occurred to me to "misread" the form, but I'd be so worried about getting into trouble. It just doesn't seem fair that as his only child I can only have a very basic record.
You should just submit your application but avoid any additional comments. You can prove your close relationship and they seem much more relaxed these days. They are under pressure fulfilling their primary role of supporting today’s Army and there certainly isn't anyone with the time, means and inclination to sit there and check you out. What sort of “trouble” could you get into? At worst a letter back refusing to provide the records.
Imber
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The form says that it’s an offence to give false information or to knowingly withhold information.
And that’s what I’d be doing - giving myself as NOK, and failing to give details of the actual NOK, his third wife, who is still alive.
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Definition of Next-of-Kin
"A person's next of kin is that person's closest living blood relative or relatives"
I think this could be a loose term where the MOD are concerned & haven't changed their wording to include deceased peoples blood kin (although I may be wrong)?
It's a document, not his Army Pension you're trying to claim :D
Annie
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With your Mum still alive, the situation is even more "odd". :)
Lisa, although you say your step mother doesn’t like you, would it still be worth asking her to sign the form?
You could fill it out and all she would need to do would be sign her name. With several marriages, I wonder if you would also need proof of divorce, remarriage etc? The plus side is that it if you go down this route it will not cost you anything to get the record. :-\
If you wish to go ahead and try to obtain the record without your step mother’s input, I would still opt for adding a note - maybe something like “third wife still living” “lost contact” or “estranged”. That is truthful, and they can only say ‘no’. :)
It would be a lot more trouble for you to go through his third wife, and if the MOD are going to supply his record to her for free, they are likely to be more careful in checking entitlements I would imagine? Some people might try to deceive to save the £30, so you would expect checks to be made, especially as there are fewer and fewer wives of WW2 servicemen still living and a wife applying for a service record from WW2 might stand out. (This is just guesswork - I have no knowledge of the process)
I feel that their nok list is a bit unfair and children have just as much right to the record as a wife, but there is probably some logic behind that.
The situation is probabaly a little different here (Australia), but I applied for my grandfather’s unclaimed WW2 medals. My aunt, his daughter was officially nok though I had lost contact with her. I included a letter telling them this and the medals were sent to me.
Their list of nok was bizzarre in my opinion - I can’t recall the full list as it was some time ago, but quite remote relatives came before grandchild, such as sons and daughters of his siblings. I had no clue who they might be, and far as I know they would be all dead anyway. Grandchild was quite low on the list. I was quite upset by this at the time because I spent a huge amount of time with my grandfather, and as there was never any mention of nieces and nephews and I am sure he would have been miffed if any of them had applied.
I would say you should still apply for your father’s full service records. :) Let us know how you get on if you decide to go ahead with it.
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His first wife is still alive and living in the USA,
His second wife - my mum - is still alive.
His third wife is still alive - this is the one who wouldn’t give me permission.
I believe my cousins may be in contact with her although not sure how close the relationship is - it may be telling that none of us, self included, found out that my father had died until a few weeks after it had happened, and I only found out through one of my cousins.
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That is awful Lisa. :(
If I were you I would be honest and list his wives and their whereabouts (maybe date of divorce if known) and for the current one - just write "unknown" "lost contact" or "estranged". Keep it short and sweet. Then it is their decision whether or not they let you have his service records.
Do you have a copy of his d/c?
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That is awful Lisa. :(
If I were you I would be honest and list his wives and their whereabouts (maybe date of divorce if known) and for the current one - just write "unknown" "lost contact" or "estranged". Keep it short and sweet. Then it is their decision whether or not they let you have his service records.
Do you have a copy of his d/c?
Yes I do - contacted Cornwall reg office directly and they sent me a copy after payment.
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I found them very helpful having added a short note with a recent application. I was after my grandmothers brothers records and was clutching at straws that I had the right record as he was using a different name to the one his birth was registered in. They emailed me to discuss the matter and then got me to phone them.
I agree with Ruskie, give them the facts. I think I would be asking them if I could have his full records as he was my father
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I agree with Ruskie and rosie99. I explained the position regarding my mum's first husband and that I had tried to find any nok. They telephoned me to discuss the situation and I got a full record as far as I am aware; I already had birth, marriage and death certificates.
You are his daughter; I was just a daughter from mum's second marriage.
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If a simple reason why you are applying as NOK without the permission of the third wife is questioned and you need to further promote your case, I think the fact she did not inform you of his death, and you did not find out about it till later, indicates an unwillingness on her part to have any kind of communication with you. Depending on how much detail you wish to provide the MOD, perhaps mentioning it if questioned may strengthen your case, give them an understanding of your relationship and they may feel some sympathy for you.
Pop back and let us know if you decide to apply and if you manage to obtain the full records - it might help others in a similar situation. :)
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Thank you to everyone for your opinions, help and advice. I will take some time to consider and decide on my approach, and will let you know how how things go.
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Best of luck Lisa. ;)
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If a simple reason why you are applying as NOK without the permission of the third wife is questioned and you need to further promote your case, I think the fact she did not inform you of his death, and you did not find out about it till later, indicates an unwillingness on her part to have any kind of communication with you. Depending on how much detail you wish to provide the MOD, perhaps mentioning it if questioned may strengthen your case, give them an understanding of your relationship and they may feel some sympathy for you.
Pop back and let us know if you decide to apply and if you manage to obtain the full records - it might help others in a similar situation. :)
I totally agree with you Ruskie! Lisa, maybe sending a copy of your own birth certificate with your application would be helpful??
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Funny you should suggest that jaybelnz. I was considering mentioning that when I applied on behalf of my OH for his father’s service records, I included a copy of OH’s b/c just to cover all bases.
Although it is not a requirement, I didn’t want to leave any doubt in their minds.
As this was several years ago (and I can’t recall the exact details) I remember including additional written supporting evidence as well.
Unnecessary I am sure, but I reasoned that it wouldn’t do any harm and might prevent any back-and -forth exchanges if anything was in doubt. :)
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it may be telling that none of us, self included, found out that my father had died until a few weeks after it had happened, and I only found out through one of my cousins.
Oh dear Lisa, how very sad for you all indeed & I hope with the help/info. from Ruskie & Rosie you're successful in your application, Good Luck!
Annie
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I did find a number for the Royal Navy Disclosure cell so called to discuss.
In short, they say I am not the next of kin, and if I can't get permission from his third wife all I can do is make an application for a general research interest.
Damn!
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That seems extremely unfair and unreasonable in my opinion. >:(
It probably won't be the case with this organisation as "rules" may not be open to interpretation, but sometimes speaking to a different person may lead to a different reply, however I am not suggesting that you call them again. :(
I would still continue with the application for the full record. Plead ignorance. The worst that can happen is they refuse and refund your money.
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I applied for my father’s (RAF) & my uncle’s (REME, Army) records and then got an interpretation of those records undertaken by the respective military organisations. The REME historian’s interpretation was particularly detailed & helpful, but because I’m writing a book about the soldier’s life in WW2 it was worth the expense to me. I think you have to weigh up what you want to get out of it & what you can afford to pay