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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Kerry => Topic started by: what0101 on Thursday 07 February 19 22:36 GMT (UK)
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So my Stack family (Philip Stack and Mary Molony) had 8 children between 1839 and 1860 in Ballybunion. On the marriage the father is listed as being from 'Knuckenore' which I assume is Knockanure. The locations given in Ballybunion on the baptism records are:
1839 Derrenavack
1842 Dirrenavack
1844 Coolkeragh
1847 Coolkeragh
1848 Dirrenavack
1850 Tullamore
1857 Derrenavak
1860 Gale
It appears they moved frequently, would that be normal at that time? Or would the locations possibly be describing the same place?
I am also not sure where Derrenavak is. Can anyone enlighten me?
I'm new to researching Irish records and I'm finding it quite difficult to figure out who is who because they don't seem to have a lot of information on them. With my family apparently changing addresses every few years, it makes it even harder to narrow down which Philip Stack is *my* Philip Stack. Any tips would be appreciated!
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Griffiths Valuation shows Philip Stack Snr and Jnr in Coolkeragh, Galey Parish
https://www.failteromhat.com/griffiths/kerry/galey.htm
Galey Parish townlands
https://www.townlands.ie/kerry/galey/
You can see Coolkeragh and Tullamore. There is also Knockenagh North and South. I wonder if Knuckenore is Knuckenagh?
I can only see the baptism of William 11 May 1848 which gives a residence of ‘Dirrenavack’ - difficult to read. The others don’t show in the indexes.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634243#page/139/mode/1up
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I have just found Patrick in 1839 - still not sure re place
11th December 1839
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634243#page/63/mode/1up
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The family members that I know of:
Philip Stack, from 'Knuckenore', married Mary Molony on Nov 4 1836 in Ballybunion, Kerry. Witnesses Patrick Molony and Timothy Molony.
Their children:
Patrick Stack, 11 Dec 1839, Derrenavack
James Stack, 17 Apr 1842, Dirrenavack
Catherine Stack, 24 Apr 1844, Coolkeragh
Bridget Stack 1 Feb 1847, Coolkeragh
William Stack, 13 May 1848, Dirrenavack
John Stack, 25 Jun 1850, Tullamore
Honora Stack, 1 Nov 1857, Derrenavak
Philip Stack 1 Aug 1860, Gale
I got the above from irishgenealogy.ie.
I know that both Honora and Philip had emigrated to the US (Pittsburgh, PA) around 1880. Philip's naturalization document says he left from Queenstown and arrived in New York on June 20, 1881, but I haven't found the passenger manifest yet. So I am not sure when the valuation that you mentioned is from, but if it's after 1880 I don't think Philip Jr. was there. There were several Philip Stacks in the neighborhood and I am having a really difficult time sorting them out.
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Baptism of PATRICK STACK of DERRENAVACK
on 11 December 1839
Parish/Church/Congregation - BALLYBUNION
Area - KERRY (RC)
churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ndo/
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https://www.johngrenham.com/places/civil_in_rc.php?churchid=0651&county=&church_name=Ballybunion
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Griffiths Valuation was approximately 1850s.
You can read more about it here
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ndp/
Looking at your names, it might be that Philip jr in GV is the father of those children.
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I just don't know how to figure out if it was the right Philip Stack in the valuation papers because there was more than one Philip Stack around the same age in the same place. I know there was *my* Philip Stack who was married to Mary Molony for the first time in 1836, so probably born between 1806 and 1818. I know there was another Philip Stack living in the same places in Ballybunion who was married to Johanna Tenant.
I've found two death records for widowers named Philip Stacks the right age in Coolkeragh. One was born about 1812 and has a son named William, which mine does, so that might be the right one (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1884/06320/4812411.pdf). The other one, born about 1811, died in 1903 a home (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1903/05642/4587946.pdf).
I found this document (https://i.imgur.com/aDgmkqq.jpg), which seems to be a handwritten version of what you posted above, and one of the Philip Stacks has (Maurice) written, which I think is a patronymic. The Philip Stack who is married to Johanna Tenant had a son named Maurice, so that may indicate that the listings in the valuations books are of the other Philip Stack, rather than the one I am looking for.
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http://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/vob/IRE_CENSUS_1821-51_007246742_00664.pdf
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Have you found any children marrying?
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this document[/url], which seems to be a handwritten version of what you posted above, and one of the Philip Stacks has (Maurice) written, which I think is a patronymic. The Philip Stack who is married to Johanna Tenant had a son named Maurice, so that may indicate that the listings in the valuations books are of the other Philip Stack, rather than the one I am looking for.
Were those 2 Philips likely to have been related, living so close together? There was a Betty and a Michael.
One Philip had a life lease. The other one had "yearly" in that column. Did "yearly" refer to a lease renewable annually or that the rent was paid once a year?
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Related thread
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=778290.msg6672685#msg6672685
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I've found two death records for widowers named Philip Stacks the right age in Coolkeragh. One was born about 1812 and has a son named William, which mine does, so that might be the right one (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1884/06320/4812411.pdf). The other one, born about 1811, died in 1903 a home (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1903/05642/4587946.pdf).
The one whose death was reported by son William in 1884 was married not widowed and is recorded as a Farmer.
The one who died in 1903, aged 92 yrs was widowed and a Labourer.
In 1901 that Philip is aged 90yrs and a Labourer so that fits and is in the Workhouse.
Find My Past shows a newspaper snippet, December 1903, which I would think is the same Philip but it looks as though it might say 105 years. There may be some more information in the article.
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Kerry People 19 December 1903
There recently passed away in Listowel workhouse an old man named Philip Stack aged 105 years, who had been a native of Coolkeragh up to 1899, when he entered the workhouse. It is stated that almost up to the last he was in full possession of his mental faculties.
Also reported in the Kerry News and Killarney Echo.
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Oh, I was hoping it might say he had been married to etc and was survived by ...
I just realised that I had not mentioned him being in the Workhouse in 1901 so have added it.
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Have you contacted the Parish?
Friday 28th
Bridget James & Deceased Family Members, O’Connell’s Ave. /
Paddy Joe & Mary Kelly & Deceased Members of the Kelly & Stack Families, Coolkeragh
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ndx/
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http://93.107.35.189:280/Ahavoher/Ahavoher%20Cemetery%20Moyvane,Kerry.html
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Have you found any children marrying?
Marriage 30 th April 1870
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634245#page/10/mode/1up
Thomas Collins and Catherine Stack , Father Philip Stack , residence Dirreenavach (Coolcaorach) ???
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A pile of Stack stuff here....
https://knockanure.jimdo.com/stack-and-more-names/
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Just for information
Mary Stack daughter of Philip and Joanna married Robert Jones 18th October 1876
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634245#page/22/mode/1up
Civil record shows Philip Stack - Labourer
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1876/11189/8100402.pdf
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So here is what I have so far:
Philip Stack, from 'Knuckenore', married Mary Molony on Nov 4 1836 in Ballybunion, Kerry. Witnesses Patrick Molony and Timothy Molony. (Possible father William Molony? (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=778290.msg6672685#msg6672685))
Their children:
Patrick Stack, 11 Dec 1839, Derrenavack
James Stack, 17 Apr 1842, Dirrenavack - moved to Pittsburgh, PA ~1865, married Mary Ryan
Catherine Stack, 24 Apr 1844, Coolkeragh
Bridget Stack 1 Feb 1847, Coolkeragh
William Stack, 13 May 1848, Dirrenavack
John Stack, 25 Jun 1850, Tullamore - moved to Pittsburgh, PA ~1870, married Mary Cox (not 100% sure)
Honora Stack, 1 Nov 1857, Derrenavak - moved to Pittsburgh, PA ~1880, married Thomas Lyons
Philip Stack 1 Aug 1860, Gale - moved to Pittsburgh, PA 1881, married Mathilda Greaser
So, assuming that the rest lived until adulthood, I am looking for Patrick, Catherine, Bridget and William who stayed behind in Kerry.
This means that the Catherine Stack marriage you found is a possibility, as well as the Philip Stack death record with William as a son.
Also, I have not actually gotten the records for the births listed above. Would they have any additional information not found on the indexes on irishgenealogy.ie?
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When you write that you are looking for those siblings who stayed behind in Kerry - are you just assuming they did because they are not on record in Pittsburgh?
If that is your Catherine, here she is in 1901 - Kate Collins
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Kerry/Shronowen/Coolkeragh/1422594/
She is Catherine in 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Kerry/Shronowen/Coolkeragh/274285/
Her daughter Maria married William Stack
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When you write that you are looking for those siblings who stayed behind in Kerry - are you just assuming they did because they are not on record in Pittsburgh?
Yes, right now I don't know a lot to go on so I'm making a lot of guesses. This article (https://i.imgur.com/CHlvGh4.jpg) gave me a lot of interesting clues. My 3rd great grandmother is Honoria Stack Lyons, and is mentioned as one of James Stack's surviving sisters. The rest of the siblings all line up, so I am sure this article is about the right family.
(There's another sister listed in the article as Mrs. David Guiney, but Mrs. David Guiney turns out to be Johanna Stack, who I don't have a birth record for, and her US death record says she was born on June 6 1860 to William Stack and Mary unknown. This record may be wildly wrong (ie wrong father and birthdate, as another child was born in Aug 1860. This is another mystery to solve later)
So, there may have been more siblings that moved to the US if they died before 1920, but the article seems pretty clear about listing all of the surviving family.
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Also, I have not actually gotten the records for the births listed above. Would they have any additional information not found on the indexes on irishgenealogy.ie?
Their baptisms are on Irish Genealogy in the Church Records.
Their births are not in the Civil Records because Civil registration of births only started in 1864.
The baptisms can be found on the parish records on NLI
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0651
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Also, I have not actually gotten the records for the births listed above. Would they have any additional information not found on the indexes on irishgenealogy.ie?
Their baptisms are on Irish Genealogy in the Church Records.
Their births are not in the Civil Records because Civil registration of births only started in 1864.
The baptisms can be found on the parish records on NLI
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0651
Sorry, that's what I mean. Would the actual baptismal record list anything more than the indexes for those records on irishgenealogy.ie? I just found the first one, for Patrick Stack on 11 Dec 1839 (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634243#page/63/mode/1up) and although I can't really read it, it seems to have the same info on the index here: https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/20de270035478
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The only way to know is to find each one, although I doubt there will be anything extra.
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It is essentially the information. There may be different spellings in the sense that the transcriber has written what he/she sees whereas you might interpret it differently.
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Ballybunion parish registers on National Library of Ireland website.
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0651
Enter year and month.
They are in Latin. No more information for Patrick than is on transcription. I agree with what Heywood says about looking at original and possibility of different interpretations. I've submitted amendments for transcriptions of many Irish records on various websites.
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Already posted without response!
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Have you contacted the Parish?
Friday 28th
Bridget James & Deceased Family Members, O’Connell’s Ave. /
Paddy Joe & Mary Kelly & Deceased Members of the Kelly & Stack Families, Coolkeragh
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ndx/
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Already posted without response!
I noticed after I'd posted. I was flipping between the 2 threads.
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Have you found any children marrying?
Marriage 30 th April 1870
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634245#page/10/mode/1up
Thomas Collins and Catherine Stack , Father Philip Stack , residence Dirreenavach (Coolcaorach) ???
I think this must be right, although if you can believe it, there was another couple named Thomas Collins and Catherine Stack who married a few years previous, so I can't be sure if the records for the children of Thomas and Catherine belong to the one couple or the other.
In positive developments, I contacted the Ballybunion tourism board to find out where Dirrennavack is, because it's listed on all of these baptism records but I can't find anything about it on Google. It turns out the woman I contacted is also a Stack from this area and she told me this is actually the name of a house in the Coolkeragh area, and that Stacks lived there until recently. She also said that Coolkeragh is in Listowel parish, so I guess that must have changed because all of the church records I have found are in Ballybunion.
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Irish Ancestors lists Coolkeragh under both parishes.
It's in the Civil Parish of Galey which as you can see on the links is listed under both parishes so must straddle the border between the two.
https://www.johngrenham.com/places/civil_in_rc.php?churchid=0651&county=&church_name=Ballybunion
https://www.johngrenham.com/places/civil_in_rc.php?churchid=0678&county=&church_name=Listowel
The family probably used the church nearest to them, which looks like it happened to be in Ballybunion.
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I just thought it was an alternative name for the townland and was questioning my reading of the
spellings. :)
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Put just DIRRENAVACK into location on Irish Genealogy and find the Kellys mother Stack
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Put just DIRRENAVACK into location on Irish Genealogy and find the Kellys mother Stack
If I search for d*n*v*k and d*n*v*c I can find 19 different records for this house, of which 17 or 18 are Stacks (one is for the name North (https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/d705340035538) and I can't find the actual record for it, but I think it might actually be a Stack).
Now that I know this is a property and not a village, I am thinking that the family may not have moved around as much as I had considered.
Patrick Stack, 11 Dec 1839, Derrenavack
James Stack, 17 Apr 1842, Dirrenavack
Catherine Stack, 24 Apr 1844, Coolkeragh
Bridget Stack 1 Feb 1847, Coolkeragh
William Stack, 13 May 1848, Dirrenavack
John Stack, 25 Jun 1850, Tullamore
Honora Stack, 1 Nov 1857, Derrenavak
Philip Stack 1 Aug 1860, Gale
Most of the above locations could actually be the same place, the priest may have listed the house sometimes and the village sometimes. I am thinking Gale could be Galey, which was the civil parish that Coolkeragh is in.
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The lady you spoke to is local so I'd expect knows what she is talking about but I can't help feeling it was a townland name that fell out of use over time but was kept alive at that farm/house.
I had a case of this with one of my famlies, took ages to figure out where Strillstown in Westmeath was, it isn't on any map or list and my family were the only ones using it. It was only from local knowledge of where the family lived (they had a mill, which helped) that I was able to pinpoint it but the name had been forgotten since the family moved on.
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Also, I have not actually gotten the records for the births listed above. Would they have any additional information not found on the indexes on irishgenealogy.ie?
If you have the chance to check originals then it is good genealogical practice to do so. It is preferred by many.
As has been said transcribers put what they see.....and this may not be what is there or what others may see.....for instance in the reference to a Philip Stack the transcriber has put a 'u' in Molouny but if you follow the flow there is no room for a "u" and it probably should have been transcribed Molony.
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The lady you spoke to is local so I'd expect knows what she is talking about but I can't help feeling it was a townland name that fell out of use over time but was kept alive at that farm/house.
I had a case of this with one of my famlies, took ages to figure out where Strillstown in Westmeath was, it isn't on any map or list and my family were the only ones using it. It was only from local knowledge of where the family lived (they had a mill, which helped) that I was able to pinpoint it but the name had been forgotten since the family moved on.
You are right, it is a former townland. I am trying to find out more about it, but it is slow going. This the only written mention I can find of the name, from 1930 there was a dog (I think) named Dirrenavack Cross owned by a Mr. Stack. So this name means something in the family, anyway.
(https://i.imgur.com/SPVXUJl.jpg)
I also found that Catherine Stack, my great great grandmother's sister listed above gave her residence as "Dirreen" on her marriage record.
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Mention of dogs reminds me that 2 sources I used to fill in gaps in late 19th century Ireland were Irish dog licence register on Find My Past and Petty Sessions records. Petty Sessions dealt with minor infringements of laws such as not having a dog licence and allowing a dog out in public without a muzzle. One ancestor was fined for both crimes.