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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Andy_T on Saturday 09 February 19 13:51 GMT (UK)
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in London from 1854 there was a dedicated platform at Waterloo station for transporting the dead to Brookwood Cemetery in Surrey. It was developed in response to a cholera epidemic and congested London cemeteries could not cope with so many burials.
At it's peak the Necropolis line from the late 1880's and until the early 1900's serviced around 170 burials a month that were sent to Brookwood Cemetery and the train transported the body and sometimes mourners as well. Coffins were loaded onto a separate carriage to passengers and mourners.
Presumably arrangements were made by undertakers and people did not take grandad to Waterloo Station in a wheelbarrow?
I am curious to know what would be the package cost of a funeral like this and how much would the additional charge have been for the freight cost to move a coffin with a body on this journey?
Also does anyone know if the train could be used to move a dead body between the counties, say Derbyshire to Leicestershire and if so what would the procedure be and the cost compared to a living person buying a ticket for the same journey?
Andy_T
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Lots more information and the costs here http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20161018-the-passenger-train-that-carried-the-dead.
st & 2nd class tickets for the deceased were available.
The platform was not at Waterloo station, it was about 500 yards before Waterloo with the station on Westminster Bridge Road - the facade still exists as Westminster Bridge House (no 121). The old track line can be seen on Google Earth.
Oddly I cannot find a map of London that shows the branch line of the station.
rgds
Edward
Update, the original platform as adjacent to Waterloo and moved in 1902.
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Yes, quite apart from moving defunct royalty, many lesser mortals went by train to the town where they were to be buried.
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An estimated 203,041 people were buried at Brookwood Cemetery.
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A good read: By Catharine Arnold - Necropolis, London and its dead. Pub. 2006.
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1878 map - Necropolis Term marked
http://london1878.com/stanford20b.htm
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A map from 1920 with the new location
https://maps.nls.uk/view/102345864#zoom=6&lat=1995&lon=5488&layers=BT
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The original facade still stands, near the back of Waterloo. I also enjoyed The Necropolis Railway - A Novel of Murder, Mystery and Steam, by Andrew Martin.
Brookwood is an amazing place to visit.
Martin
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The original facade still stands, near the back of Waterloo. I also enjoyed The Necropolis Railway - A Novel of Murder, Mystery and Steam, by Andrew Martin.
Brookwood is an amazing place to visit.
Martin
Not the original, this is the 1902 facade and, as I said earlier, is on Westminster Bridge Road
Edward
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Some great links and reading recommendations, already posted by roots contributors and I especially like the BBC link posted by Edward Scott to the article By Amanda Ruggeri18 October 2016.
I can hear the pompous voice of William Mervyn who played the Bishop in the BBC sitcom All Gas and Gaiters when I read the following quotation:
“The pairing of grief and efficiency may seem a little jarring. It did then, too.
“I consider it improper,” sniffed the Bishop of London, testifying on the proposal before a House of Commons Select Committee in 1842.
“At present we are not sufficiently habituated to that mode of traveling not to consider the hurry and bustle connected with it as inconsistent with the solemnity of a Christian funeral.”
This BBC article for procedure and pricing is very informative:
“ The train — outfitted with leather straps to keep the coffins secure — would carry both the mourners and deceased. Fares were capped by the Act of Parliament that had established the railway, and remained constant throughout the railway’s lifetime: six shillings for a return first-class ticket (in 1854, this was worth about £25 in today’s terms), down to two shillings (about £8) in third. For the dead, it cost £1 in first class and 2s 6d in third. “
Andy_T
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This is article is also relevant to some of the reasons for the opening of Brookwood.
https://lookup.london/aldgate-pump/
You may wish to avoid reading this over food :)
Edward
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There is a very good book entitled "The Brookwood Necropolis Railway" by John M. Clarke and published by Oakwood Press in 2006 (4th edition). It also contains an excellent bibliography. It should be noted that Oakwood Press is now part of Stenlake Publishing.
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A good read: By Catharine Arnold - Necropolis, London and its dead. Pub. 2006.
I also recommend this very enlightening book. :)
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Just wondering what the difference was between first and second class for the dead? Maybe first class allowed the coffin to travel in its own carriage, but second class had several packed in the same one?
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Coffins were routinely despatched by rail in the Highlands, stitched into sackcloth by the undertaker & loaded into the guards-van, they possibly still are? I shared an empty platform one snowy night some 40 years ago with an unattended coffin bound for Kyle! I asked the porter if that was what I thought it was? he assured me that it would be no bother at all! ;D
Skoosh.
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This is article is also relevant to some of the reasons for the opening of Brookwood.
https://lookup.london/aldgate-pump/
Edward
You should always quote your sources! Especially communal pumps.
Martin
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:D :D :D
Coincidences ... Brookwood v Rookwood, Necropolis, funeral trains, dedicated railway stations, Waterloo.... I am reminded that in Sydney New South Wales, Australia, there's Rookwood Cemetery...
Rookwood Cemetery (Rookwood Necropolis) http://www.rookwoodcemetery.com.au/ It is still operating, and back in the 1860s right through to the 1930s, the NSW government railways operated a train service from the Mortuary Station at Central Station, to Rookwood. Rookwood includes an entire CWGC Cemetery. Rookwood is the largest of the Victorian era cemeteries that are still operating in the world.
https://www.tracesmagazine.com.au/2017/06/historic-rookwood-mortuary-station-opens-to-the-public/
http://www.rookwoodcemetery.com.au/about-us/tours
http://www.rookwoodcemetery.com.au/
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research enter 'mortuary railway' brings up several photos of the railway station within Rookwood cemetery
https://trove.nla.gov.au/picture enter keywords eg Rookwood Cemetery or Mortuary
And, I should also add that there's a Sydney suburb named Waterloo.
JM
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I'm afraid 100s of dead were taken in Army trucks to Brookwood, after the exercise on Slapton Sands, Devon, England, was badly planned and also went badly wrong.
When a ship protecting left and enemy vessels opened fire, along with friendly fire and firing of live rounds on our own men to make it realistic, but it was killing them and our men were only training!! :'( :'(
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Regarding prices, the only prices I have are for 1940 England, Great Britain and are as follows:-
Funeral Directors (FD) to collect Airmen from two sites at Eastleigh, England and take to RAF Calshot, England in coffins, was £4, 15 shillings (£4.75) each Airman.
Rail Cost in 1940
To "Putting on rail" at Eastleigh for a Manchester, England, Burial, it was 10/- (or 10 shillings) 50 new pence / 50 pence extra, making a total of £5, 5 shillings (£5.25 total) with Funeral Directors charges.
Todays Purchasing Power, 2017
Using the TNA Calculator £4, 15 shillings in 1940, was £186.90 in 2017.
Although the RAF drove the coffins from the RAF Air Station to the cemetery, supplied a Marching Party, Uniformed pall bearers and supplied an RAF band, per RAF photographs of the funeral.
Grave Digger
I suppose the RAF paid the church separately for the Grave Digger, which is a separate charge anyway, added on top of the Funeral Directors charges today.
Mark
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Wikipedia gives costs of LNC burials in 1854:
First Class £2 10s
Second Class £1
Third Class - pauper burials at the expense of the parish
and shows an example of a 1925 third class coffin ticket.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brookwood_Cemetery
Tony
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May I also recommend Andrew Martin's Jim Stringer series, which describes railway work in the early years of the 20th Century (and on through the first world war and beyond) and in his first book has a mystery centred around the Necropolis Railway.
"The Necropolis Railway".
Whilst this is only tangential to your research, I found the details about railway work very interesting, and Andrew Martin's books are evidently meticulously researched. I can recommend the whole series
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The original station was a York Street and moved to Westminster Bridge street
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The original station was a York Street and moved to Westminster Bridge street
Have a look at post 5, it was on Leake Street / York Road
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The original station was a York Street and moved to Westminster Bridge street
Have a look at post 5, it was on Leake Street / York Road
So is the OS map incorrect?
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If you look at the map link in post 5 there is a single line to the left of Waterloo Station. That is the original station. I reckon this is about where the Eurostar terminal was .
This one shows it quite well https://maps.nls.uk/view/102345964#zoom=6&lat=2092&lon=5632&layers=BT
This one may even better
https://maps.nls.uk/view/91617035#zoom=5&lat=2730&lon=5621&layers=BT
Edward
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If you would like to read more about the cemetery have a look here http://www.brookwoodcemetery.com/
To have a single plot for 100 years is now £5625 plus maintenance after year 1.
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My thoughts are that the coffins may have been loaded on the line to the the left of Waterloo, but as there are no platforms shown the mourners joined the train at the station.
Mike
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If you look at the map link in post 5 there is a single line to the left of Waterloo Station. That is the original station. I reckon this is about where the Eurostar terminal was .
Edward
The stations are on the right, not the left, and are clearly marked "Necropolis Station" on the OS maps I attached.
I understand that carriages entered beneath the track and there was a lift system for coffins
deebel
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The BBC link posted by Edward on page 1 covers how the coffins were brought in and loaded onto the train:
" Another perk of the location was Waterloo’s railway arches, which acted as “ideal temporary storage space of corpses”, Nash writes. Along with two entrance halls (one for the upper class, one for the middle and lower), waiting rooms and platforms, the station also had mortuaries.
The process was straightforward. Most families had their loved one picked up by a horse-drawn hearse. The funeral procession would end at the station; there, the coffins would be lifted into elevators that would carry them up to the platform level and onto the train. "
Andy_T
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At the beginning of my railway career I worked in the Parcels Office at Boston passenger station. From time to time we despatched and received bodies.
I can remember the following: The junior staff(me) were not allowed to have any dealing, because of the sensitivity of the consignment it was the responsibility of the Chief clerk to arrange the booking.
I was allowed to order the extra parcels van for the conveyance of the body. If more than one body, a van for each! The name and destination were clearly labelled on the van which was locked or sealed!
The vans were then attached to the rear of a passenger train, and any shunting connections required were shown on the label, given to the crew,and notified on by phone to the next point.
My father who was a driver said there was a going rate of 10/- tip to each crew member.
The only thing we ever received from Scotland in sacking was fresh salmon. Luckily never a body, it would have needed to be embalmed to be approachable by the time it arrived in Boston.
Staff members killed on duty were transported by rail free of charge.
There is (was) ? a concession to staff where bodies of staff members and families were transported at 1/4 of the public rate.
The last shipment I heard of was that of the late RMT secretary Jimmy Knapp whose body was shipped from Ashford (Kent) to Glasgow by Virgin trains. There is a story (apocryphal)? That he was late for his funeral.
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In reply to RedRoger: It's good to hear your experiences at Boston and the arrangements made to move deceased by train. Jimmy Knapp was General Secretary of the Railman's Union and he died as recently as 2001. I guess he was entitled to his last journey FOC (did this perk apply to Virgin Trains)?
I totally forgot when I posted about the Necropolis Railway that about 15 years ago I bought a cemetery plot at Golden Valley Woodland Burial Ground at Ripley, Derbyshire. There is an option to have a last ride into the burial ground on steam train from Butterly and mourners can have a wake on the return journey inside the buffet carriage.
Andy_T
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In reply to Edward Scott: Great link about the contaminated water from Aldgate Pump, likely leading to more customers on the Necropolis Railway.
All I can say is Yuuk!
But I have subscribed to the Look Up London Newsletter :)
Andy_T
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In reply to RedRoger: It's good to hear your experiences at Boston and the arrangements made to move deceased by train. Jimmy Knapp was General Secretary of the Railman's Union and he died as recently as 2001. I guess he was entitled to his last journey FOC (did this perk apply to Virgin Trains)
The "perk" as you put it applied to all qualifing staff ( think it was 5 years service) who the companies inherited from BR.The companies make their own perks.
As the former Chairman of a Parish Council in the North I am entitled to be buried in the churchyard free of charge..
I am unlikely to take advantage or to be carried up there by rail.
No ceremony for me just get rid of what's left quickly and as cheaply as possible.
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As the former Chairman of a Parish Council in the North I am entitled to be buried in the churchyard free of charge..
I am unlikely to take advantage or to be carried up there by rail.
What a 'perk' to be offered :'(
There is probably a clause, always is with Councils (Paragraph 84 a. Section 2, part A, Clause iii, Second part, Last sentence line 53) ... the entitlement holder must meet the grave digger's costs and expenses, which shall be equal to the full cost of a new grave purchase at their time of death.
I hope we'll be around a long time first, with some of our brain marbles reasonably intact!
Regarding train journeys, I like to look out the window ;D
Mark
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Regarding train journeys, I like to look out the window.
Maybe even that might be arranged .... ;D
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Regarding train journeys, I like to look out the window.
Maybe even that might be arranged .... ;D
Not on your railway Andrew!
Thinking of a Return Ticket to a holiday location/archive and back home to look at my pics/copy docs! Mark
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As the former Chairman of a Parish Council in the North I am entitled to be buried in the churchyard free of charge..
I am unlikely to take advantage or to be carried up there by rail.
What a 'perk' to be offered :'(
There is probably a clause, always is with Councils (Paragraph 84 a. Section 2, part A, Clause iii, Second part, Last sentence line 53) ... the entitlement holder must meet the grave digger's costs and expenses, which shall be equal to the full cost of a new grave purchase at their time of death.
I hope we'll be around a long time first, with some of our brain marbles reasonably intact!
Regarding train journeys, I like to look out the window ;D
Mark
The perk such as it is comes from the Parish Church, and it's origins are lost in the mists of time ( the registers start in the 1550s I believe) Since the 1940s there have been at least 50 chair persons some of whom have served one year only, others like me 3 or 4 terms some consecutive around 5 years in total, one or two up to 15 years when noone wanted the job.