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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ayrshire => Topic started by: Josh Swann on Thursday 14 February 19 10:30 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I’m looking for some information on deaths for a couple that lived in Ayrshire and got married in the Galston parish church in 1702. This was between Alexander Allan and Janet Campbell. I have had a look through other people’s tree through on familysearch but each tree I have seen has a different parent for Janet. As this can not be trusted I decided invest time into solving this. I have thought finding them together On a gravestone would give me a start but can not find anything. I’m not from the area so I’m not sure if there was a problem with deaths not being recorded properly or they travelled elsewhere? Alexander and Janet had one child I know of who is David allan in 1706 and then after that nothing....no more children and no death records.....David remained in Galston however. If anyone could shed some light on this I will be truly grateful.
Thanks
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I've checked the Ayrshire Burial Index and there are only 2 Alexander Allans listed and 10 Janet Campbells (mostly children). No links to Galston Parish.
There are several problems with Burial records from that time period
1. They were poorly recorded
2. Many were not recorded at all except for records of fees paid to hire a Mortcloth
3. Many records were poorly stored and didn't survive
4. The schisms and rejoinings of the various church congregations tended to scatter any records.
5 and some were just lost :(
I've just checked the official list of OPR Records from Scotlands People and for Galston the only death records known are for 1762 - 1763
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In my opinion any tree that gives any parent for either of these people without providing some sort of evidence is not to be relied on on that or (consequently) on any other detail. Never trust anything you find online unless it is an image of an original document.
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Hi
Thanks for getting back to me this is some really helpful information. I never really checked the whole of Ayrshire but you say you have found two Alexander’s . I do know his birth year is 1672 in a Galston. This is very new to me as I never knew I had Scottish Roots. How would I go about finding a Janet farther as the only child I know is David. Is this common/normal for the time in Galston. I do know they had some sort of money though because they married into the Hamilton’s. ???
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There is a Parish entry at Scotlands People confirming the information you have about the wedding
ALLAN,ALEXANDER - JANET CAMPBELL 14/09/1702 Galston
FR536 550 (FR550)
593/30 15
But unfortunately there does not appear to be any other children listed other than David in Ayrshire.
If Janet Campbell was born in Galston there appears to be only one birth entry on Scotlands People but the entry only names a father (quite common)
CAMPBELL
JANET CAMPBELL father HUGH CAMPBELL
born/baptised 26/09/1671 Galston
Reference : 593/ 10 18
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Hi
Yes this is the correct direction I’m going in. If you could just follow me for a minute......
The Janet born in Galston and her farther being Hugh Campbell, I have followed this and if I’m right Hugh Campbell farther is Hugh Campbell of Netherplace or Hugh Campbell of Loudoun. If Hugh Campbell had a son junior to him would he be given a title similar to his farther and being recorded in the registers as a title ??? ??? ??? I only ask because I have looked at the document and does not mention a title but mentions Both of this parish ??? Also Alexander Allan was born somewhere called either m bank or just bank ???
Any information would be much appreciated.
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The first problem is that the earliest known recorded birth in Galston Parish records is 1670 if Janet Campbell was the daughter of Hugh then he would have had to be born around 1650 (ish) and the records just aren't there.
As to referring to Hugh Campbell of Netherplace this could refer to Netherplace House or to a farm in that estate (https://canmore.org.uk/site/197047/netherplace-house) both in Mauchline. In the first case it would infer some money although not necessarily a peerage style title if it was the latter it could imply a tenant of the estate.
Hugh Campbell of Loudon would I believe infer that this Hugh Campbell was originally from the Parish of Loudon and had now settled in the Parish where the details were recorded.
In either case a reference to a junior son of the same name would sometimes be written as Hugh Campbell son of Hugh Campbell of Netherplace but a lot depended upon the situation the age of the person described and who was doing the recording
For example from the death records (these are the two Alexander Allans Listed that I mentioned earlier)
597/6 Old Parochial Register - Kilmarnock -- From 24-Feb-1728 to 29-Dec-1781
Alexander ALLAN, formerly residing in Kilmarnock, Died 18-Apr-1731; Age 1y6m, Son of John. Additional information :- Cause of death given - decay; Relation details - fa: a glover
603/4 Old Parochial Register - Loudoun -- From 04-Jun-1811 to 08-Jan-1855
Alexander ALLAN, formerly residing in Newmilns, Buried 27-Apr-1849; Junior/Younger, Son of Alexr Allan, snr. Additional information :- Relation details - fa: a weaver; Relation details - fa: at Tounhead
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Sorry but just to throw a spanner into the works
Death Record :
Hugh CAMPBELL, formerly residing in Kirkton, Died 26-Aug-1825; . Additional information :- Other details - native of /; Other details - Argyleshire
Whether this Hugh is any link to those you are aware of is a matter of speculation but if he is connected it tends to throw the net a lot wider.
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Are any witnesses recorded to the baptism of David in 1706? They might be a pointer.
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Hi
Yes I think something happens because having one child 4 years later but no other child known ? I have the parish record copy and there is no witness there it’s very simple page let’s say only mentions the farther Alexander and were he is from which is Bank ? Could Alexander not be from the area in have not managed to track down an area called Bank so far, or do we think it is a river bank ? The other people on the register are listed as galoustoun or Loudoun or even allanstoun which is very strange.....would it be normal for the bride to get married in her home town ?
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As replying to the deaths he could of died 1731 it’s a possibility. Is there anything for Janet ?
Which Hugh do you think that is Falkirk?
I know nothing of Scotland so do they have certain family traditions
, did the travel across the country ? Did they move away from family
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As replying to the deaths he could of died 1731 it’s a possibility. Is there anything for Janet ?
There are 10 Janet Campbells listed in the index (mostly children) with none listed with a married name of Allan. There are also 76 Janet Allans listed but again none of them are listed with a birth name of Campbell.
Which Hugh do you think that is Falkirk?
As no age is given and there is no reference to a parent this would imply that they are referring to an adult but it could be any of those you know or completely unconnected. (the name is quite common)
I know nothing of Scotland so do they have certain family traditions
Some families followed a traditional naming pattern https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Scotland_Names_Personal but some went their own way :o
, did the travel across the country ?
sometimes, a lot depended upon their trade and where they looked for employment- The time period in question was part of the Period of the Lowland Clearances and Ayrshire was quite heavily affected.
Did they move away from family
Sometimes
Re marriage - the brides home Parish was a more normal place for the marriage to take place but if the bride and groom were from different Parishes Banns had to be called in both Parishes which is why you sometimes find duplicate records in the Parish registers.
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So would I be right in saying that Alexander may not even be from a Galston ?i mean I have only found 1 marriage not 2 but i am having trouble what this place “Bank” means. I can upload a copy of the writing if you can make anything out ?
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Although when i look back at Alexander’s record it follows in the Galston parish so it must be an area close by ?
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So would I be right in saying that Alexander may not even be from a Galston ?i mean I have only found 1 marriage not 2 but i am having trouble what this place “Bank” means. I can upload a copy of the writing if you can make anything out ?
A clip would be handy. Bank in this context is possibly part of the name
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Yes hope this helps possibly. I have the full page document if you wanted to see how the other places have being spelt
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I have also found a map of the area in 1775 so a similar time when he was around there.
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1775 map of the area and You can see Loudoun is the big town. I can’t see any place called bank though
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It very definitely implies that the place where they lived was called Bank, and that it was a place (maybe just a single house or croft) in the parish of Galston because if it had not been in the parish where he was baptised it would have said 'Bank in the parish of xxx'. That may just have been the name it was locally referred to rather than its full name, or its name on maps and estate plans.
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I would agree with Forfarian it tends to point either towards a single house or steading which was known locally and in that Parish - it could well be a local abbreviation known to all locally but an enigma to outsiders.
Added :- There is an area of forest known as Bank Woods in Galston and there is also an area called Bankwood which from Google Street View looks like at one time it was a farmhouse - possibly that Bank is in or near that
Looking at the excerpt my eye is drawn to the word which has been obliterated and I wonder if this was "natural" as in natural son implying he was illegitimate. If the obliteration is from the original document it could indicate that it was wrongly recorded as such. A look at the Kirk Session Records might clear that one up but they are not online
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With the name I was think it was just an ink blob but do you think it points to something else ? I can see how bank would fit into bank woods and that area being near a river bank it’s looking more likely.
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With the name I was think it was just an ink blob but do you think it points to something else ? I can see how bank would fit into bank woods and that area being near a river bank it’s looking more likely.
It looks more like a deliberate scribble over the word whether that means that the word was meant to be there or not is another matter
1. It could be a mistake corrected when it was realised by the Session Clerk or Minister
or
2. If the entry was correct this would imply that the child was Alexanders illegitimate child and given that he was already married to Janet Campbell the inference then is that the child was not hers.
But many of these Parish entries were completed after the events (sometimes long after) and mistakes do occur - the Kirk session records may hold further vital information or show that the whole matter was a simple clerical error.
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Ooo gets even juicier now so do you think he was natural then ? How would i go forward in my search for Janet Campbell? As one child seems very strange I’m guessing something must have happened.
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I'm afraid that any further research may have to be conducted offline.
Kirk Session Records (basically the church elders sitting in judgement of the locals) - they have been digitised but we have been waiting for some time now for them to be made available (They are available at some centres but are not indexed and so require a lot of time)
Sasines (Property Records although these are only likely to assist in chasing Alexander)
Retours of Heirs again mainly limited to the male lines
Just to put some context - the late 1600's were a difficult time for some in Scotland - in 1685 the Government began punitive military action against the Covenanters which has been referred to as "The Killing Times" and Ayrshire did not escape. Later during the latter part of the 18th century there were also huge changes in living and working conditions in agricultural areas as the "Age of Enlightenment" led to the Lowland Clearances.
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Hi ,
Regarding the location of Bank -
There is a reference to Bank in the Parish of Galston on Ayrshire Ordnance Survey Books 1855-57 - It's described as a ruin.
https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/ayrshire-os-name-books-1855-1857/ayrshire-volume-28/82
Looby :)
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Bank is on the first edition of the Ordnance Survey map
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=55.5916&lon=-4.3524&layers=5&b=1
If you click on the blu button in the menu box on the left and slide it to and fro, you can see that what was Bank is now just inside the edge of Bank Wood.
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Bank is on the first edition of the Ordnance Survey map
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=55.5916&lon=-4.3524&layers=5&b=1
If you click on the blu button in the menu box on the left and slide it to and fro, you can see that what was Bank is now just inside the edge of Bank Wood.
Nice find - it looks more like a row of houses rather than a single unit on that map.
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Wow :o this is fantastic news I’m shocked that you found it I had no idea.....I wish I knew what he worked as and why living out there in a ruined house ???
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It probably wasn't a ruin in 1706, which is the date on that baptism - the Ordnance Survey Name Books and the old map are from the 1850s. Plenty of time for a house to be abandoned and start to fall down.
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It probably wasn't a ruin in 1706, which is the date on that baptism - the Ordnance Survey Name Books and the old map are from the 1850s. Plenty of time for a house to be abandoned and start to fall down.
Agree with Forfarian.
It could be that the building hadn't been ruined for that long in 1855/57.
In fact there is a family called Thomson recorded as resident at Bank in Parish of Galston on the 1841 Census. The head of the household is a Janet Thomson aged 40 and a Pauper.
It's the same property as mentioned in 1855/57 Ordnance Survey name book and the map as the enumerators route takes him past neighbouring farms/cottages.
Looby :)
Looby
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Ah I see...... so do you think it is where some of the poor lived ? I can’t imagine it being wealthy people living there so far out of town ?
Also how would I track down a Janet Campbell? Would there be records for women then as sevants...... strange how they had no more children too.
Is there a way to access the Kirk sessions for Galston as i hope that could uncover some information
Thanks again
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I thin that in 1706 it was a perfectly ordinary smallholding or croft, nothing unusual. There certainly would not have been, at that time, a special place where poor folk lived. Later, in the 19th century, there were poorhouses, but not at the start of the 18th century in rural parishes.
You can probably forget about records of servants. 1706 was long before the census, which is really about the only records you will find of most servants, unless they were in some big house and the wages records have survived - not that I've ever seen anything like that from the early 18th century, but something might exist for the big estates.
The fact that there was someone who was a pauper living there in 1841 is likely not connected with your people in 1706. Until 1845 the responsibility for looking after the poor was on the Kirk Session, and their minutes and accounts often contain detailed reports of the poor who had applied for relief, and of the amounts of money paid out to them or spent on providing for them.
The Galston Kirk Session records are in the National Records of Scotland, and the ones from 1706 have survived. Go to https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/search.aspx and search for Galston, putting CH2/ in the 'reference' box, and you can see what is available. They have been digitised but are not yet available online. You have to go, or get someone to go on your behalf, to General Register House in Edinburgh or one of a few local archives that have a link to the NRS.
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Sorry Josh,
I only mentioned the family at Bank with the Pauper as head of household as evidence that the building was still being used in 1841. It had perhaps already fallen into disrepair in 1841- we will never know.
When your ancestor lived there in 1706 it would likely be a small farm cottage or a cottage connected to Cessnock Castle. I live not far from this area and, in fact, walk this road regularly during spring and summer.
Looby
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Hi this is very interesting to hear.... do you know the name of the person who lived there in 1841? Just wondering if it’s a relative or somebody’s name I recognise. Do you mean it is connected to Cessnock Castle as in grounds keeper or did they provide food for them ?
Sorry for the delay too when I have a lot of information and ideas all at once I have learnt to digest first and think rarther then to exhaust myself over one clue.
Thanks again
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Hi,
The family at Bank in 1841 are the Thomson family - all born in Ayrshire
THOMSON Janet F 40 Pauper
THOMSON William M 15 Tilemaker
THOMSON Jean F 11
THOMSON Mary F 7
THOMSON Elisabeth F 5
THOMSON Marion F 3
THOMSON Flora F 1
Looby :)
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Maybe a possible connection Possibly friends if that. I know that they all moved on after 1799 because that’s when his wife Christian died and I’m sure he must of died before her as he was born 1706. I know people rented in those days and rarely owned their house so possibly after that it went into disperse?
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I realise this thread is just over two years old and Josh Swann has not been active since.
However today I went for a walk in Bank Woods and found the remains of the cottage I believe is the Bank referred to on the old maps. The ruins are certainly in the exact location.
I have taken some photos which I would be happy to post if Josh is interested - hoping he recieves an email alert ( fingers crossed)
Looby :)
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I realise this thread is just over two years old and Josh Swann has not been active since.
However today I went for a walk in Bank Woods and found the remains of the cottage I believe is the Bank referred to on the old maps. The ruins are certainly in the exact location.
I have taken some photos which I would be happy to post if Josh is interested - hoping he recieves an email alert ( fingers crossed)
Looby :)
I also share this ancestry with Josh and have found this thread interesting. I had followed the Allan’s of Galston, Riccarton, Craigie until they emigrated to Australia, where I am from. Out of coincidence I now live in Ayrshire with my Scottish wife.
If you do have bank woods photos of ruins I would be interested to see these if you still have them.