RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Deirdre on Thursday 14 February 19 16:59 GMT (UK)
-
On Ancestry I was surprised to see my ancestor listed in the results with the title Esquire MD after his name. This is completely believable as he is always shown with the designation Mr on the earlier tithe records but - when you go in to view the scanned record it does not show this designation after his name.
He also appears with the same notation Esquire MD in another county which is very plausible and totally crucial to our research as to his origins as we are trying to link the two locations.
I do not know where Ancestry got this information from so I phoned them and was told it was already in the database when they received it from the source which is quoted as Irish Microfilms Ltd 1978 .
Ancestry has the option to just search on keywords, so if you put in Esquire MD it brings up a whole load of gentlemen with this after their name in the search but again if you view the scanned documents it does not appear on the page, therefore my relative is by no means a one-off.
Has anyone else come across this and any opinion as to accepting it on face value as it seems impossible to find the source document to check it personally?
I know that MD generally indicates a medical doctor but there does seem to be an awful lot of them if you just type in Esquire MD with no name so that it returns those records.
-
Nothing uncommon there....
-
If you put "Esquire MD" exact, there are 15,594 listed.
Stan
-
That's what I mean so
1) They can't all be Doctors - so does it mean something else. Okay Esquire I can accept!
2) Where has the database Ancestry has been provided with got that info from when it does not appear on the images?
It must have come from somewhere.
-
Could you give us a name of one so we can all have a look, putting in Esquire MD doesn't work on Ask about Ireland
-
You have to remember that Ancestry has Links from one Database to another to another, so it could be as a result of various Databases giving this result.
That is why e.g. one get hints for someone born 1860 in Marriages/Census/Ship records/Deaths etc etc
-
That's what I mean so
1) They can't all be Doctors - so does it mean something else. Okay Esquire I can accept!
2) Where has the database Ancestry has been provided with got that info from when it does not appear on the images?
It must have come from somewhere.
Have you tried the Ask about Ireland- Griffiths website?
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml
KG
-
Ah, I wasn't aware that Ancestry would link databases like that. That does make me feel a bit better as this particular record is a crucial one in linking this guy from Roscommon to Clare.
Here's the record.
If you go into Ancestry search on Griffith's and type Denis O'Brien in the name, then Aghaderry in the place and hit search, it should show up as the second record down on the search results.
He then appears on page four second from the bottom in Clare as tenant of Lord Inchiquin assuming you have the default of 20 to the page.
Yes I have been on the ask about Ireland site which is very good but I am most intrigued about this extra info that appears on Ancestry. In the O'Brien surname project we are desperate to prove this is the same guy and wondered about the veracity of the title Esquire MD. We do believe he could have been a surgeon who maybe served in the military but that is as yet unverified.
-
askaboutireland.ie
No place names matched your search.
You searched for
Place name: Aghaderry
County: ROSCOMMON
Barony:
Union:
Parish:
-
It will work on Ancestry. It takes some fiddling around with on askaboutireland to make it work
First record on Ancestry
Denis O'Brien Esquire MD
Viscount Dillon Aghaderry, Tibohine, Roscommon
Second record
Denis O'Brien Esquire MD
Lord Inchiquin Sixmilebridge, Kilfinaghta, Clare
Note no other Denis O'Brien appears with this designation after his name
-
Can you give us the parish, I can't find anything of these on Ask about Ireland with going through pages of results.
-
the Ancestry transcripts look wrong, there's no sign of the Esquire or MD on the original images for the Denis in Aghaderry, Tibohine parish
-
Found the Clare one
-
there's actualy two Denis O'Briens in Aghaderry on the the same page, the second is jnr. (again no Esq.or MD)
-
Denis O'Brien landlord Denis O'Brien jun and than Denis O'Brien jun landlord Lord Innchiquin.
As athacliath62 said nothing to indicate Esq or MD, are they just giving to titles to everyone in the Landlord list.
-
Yes we believe they are father and son.
Below is the askaboutireland parish.
Aghaderry Roscommon Frenchpark Tibohine Aghaderry
The question is where is Ancestry getting the Esquire MD from, not just for this but for many others when it dos'nt appear on the record itself when you view it. It must have come from somewhere.
-
the esq. and MD are not on the image which is the original source
If they cant explain then I would doubt the accuracy of their transcript. I'd suggest the images are the best source. Does ancestry show these ?
if not I'd go with AskAboutIreland or FindMyPast
-
Can you give us the parish, I can't find anything of these on Ask about Ireland with going through pages of results.
Union CASTLEREA
Parish TIBOHINE
Townland MOYNE
-
Denis O'Brien Aghaderry wasn't very tall!
Name DENIS OBRIEN
Date of Death 1880
Group Registration ID 6519122
SR District/Reg Area Castlerea
Deceased Age at Death 72
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1880/06473/4861929.pdf
-
Name DENIS OBRIEN (junior??) Aghaderry
Date of Death 1882
Group Registration ID 6737474
SR District/Reg Area Castlerea
Deceased Age at Death 28
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1882/06399/4837433.pdf
-
Denis O'Brien Aghaderry wasn't very tall!
Name DENIS OBRIEN
Date of Death 1880
Group Registration ID 6519122
SR District/Reg Area Castlerea
Deceased Age at Death 72
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1880/06473/4861929.pdf
and definitely not a doctor!
-
Denis junior died in 1880 but his father Denis senior died in 1855 so before civil registration. His death was reported in an Irish national newspaper -Freeman's Journal under the name of Mister D O'Brien which would indicate a person of some importance.
The 1882 death was the grandson.
-
Trying to find the source, Irish Microfilms Ltd, the person in Ancestry got the name incorrect.
Ancestry has this
https://search.ancestry.ie/search/db.aspx?dbid=1269
National Library http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000229705
I'm not getting anywhere with Irish Microforms Ltd
-
Denis junior died in 1880 but his father Denis senior died in 1855 so before civil registration. His death was reported in an Irish national newspaper -Freeman's Journal under the name of Mister D O'Brien which would indicate a person of some importance.
The 1882 death was the grandson.
If you're doing the Inchiquin lot you'll be connecting to quite a lot of people...
http://landedestates.nuigalway.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/estate-show.jsp?id=2094
-
There is simply no basis for the "Esquire MD" addition to 15,500+ entries on Ancestry.
- Pure invention?
- Fantasy?
- Incompetence?
Whatever the reason, OP has wasted time on this, as it eliminates the supposed link between two Denis O'Briens.
-
It must have come from somewhere.
It can come from a fevered imagination. It can come from incompetence. Ancestry is littered with inaccuracies: dreadful, error ridden indicies, family trees which should win awards for inventive fiction.
So no, it did not have to come from anywhere meaningful.
-
Irish Microforms Ltd
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01nej/
wonder if they are still in business
-
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/obrien?iframe=yresults
-
Griffith's Valuation Record Information
Tenant
Family Name 1 O'BRIEN
Forename 1 DENIS
Landlord
Family Name 2 INCHIQUIN
Forename 2 LORD
Location
County CLARE
Barony BUNRATTY, LOWER (PART OF)
Union ENNIS
Parish KILFINAGHTA
Townland SIXMILEBRIDGE
Place Name LODGE ROAD
-
Denis O'Brien Aghaderry wasn't very tall!
Name DENIS OBRIEN
Date of Death 1880
Group Registration ID 6519122
SR District/Reg Area Castlerea
Deceased Age at Death 72
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1880/06473/4861929.pdf
Is this the same Denis??
and this is his grandson?
Name DENIS OBRIEN (junior??) Aghaderry
Date of Death 1882
Group Registration ID 6737474
SR District/Reg Area Castlerea
Deceased Age at Death 28
,
-
I can't see on Ask about Ireland who supplied the microfilm but I'd say it's a good chance it's the same company, Microform Ltd. if that's the case there seems no reason to believe Microform transcribed the films so I can't see why Ancestry can blame them.
They need to say who transcribed the films.
-
The screenshot Hallmark has provided is our Roscommon group on the O'Brien Y DNA project.
I have personally organised that test from a known descendant of Denis from Aghaderry so I do know it is a true match and that our group connect to the Inchiquins through Y DNA.
What we are trying to do is establish the migration pattern from County Clare to Roscommon as to when and why it occurred. We have a very distant cousin in Australia who can trace his roots to within 20 miles of Sixmilebridge so the connection seems plausible.
I have been co ordinating our group's UK research into the DNA part for the last couple of years.
I will email Ancestry and point out the implausibility of all the matches with Esquire MD and see what they say. I will post back in due course when they (hopefully) reply.
-
As others have pointed out all the more reason to check the original sources. With Griffiths on the Ask about Ireland site being so friendly and fascinating there is little reason to go any other site where the possibility exists of double transcriptions leading to double the errors.
OP you have said you want to see what triggered a move from Co Roscommon to Co Clare or vice versa by members of the O'Brien family. Rather than trying to find it in individual documents have you looked at broad histories ie what was happening for the populace at the time? It may be some thing like a change of landlord, merging of tenants properties, famine & poor crops as well as the more personal ones such as a son marrying into a family from that area, the wider family owning land there.
What were the dates that you think the move took place and was it a whole family or one family?
The other good thing about using GV on the original site is that you can see the original published entries and work out from them the system of leases and subleases ie the LL may lease to John Brown and then John brown subleases to several others. You can also see who else was living in the same townland by looking at the Griffiths Places search. That is a very powerful tool as families often married into families close by and you can often find them on this part of GV
-
Denis junior died in 1880 but his father Denis senior died in 1855 so before civil registration. His death was reported in an Irish national newspaper -Freeman's Journal under the name of Mister D O'Brien which would indicate a person of some importance.
The 1882 death was the grandson.
Have you looked in the Catholic Parish registers for this death?
NB In the civil registration of the death for Denis O'Brien who died 9/5/1880 aged 72 it has the name Aughaderry, informant Margaret O'Brien (her mark)
-
The screenshot Hallmark has provided is our Roscommon group on the O'Brien Y DNA project.
I have personally organised that test from a known descendant of Denis from Aghaderry so I do know it is a true match and that our group connect to the Inchiquins through Y DNA.
What we are trying to do is establish the migration pattern from County Clare to Roscommon as to when and why it occurred. We have a very distant cousin in Australia who can trace his roots to within 20 miles of Sixmilebridge so the connection seems plausible.
I have been co ordinating our group's UK research into the DNA part for the last couple of years.
I will email Ancestry and point out the implausibility of all the matches with Esquire MD and see what they say. I will post back in due course when they (hopefully) reply.
Why should there be a migration pattern? He may simply have been head-hunted for exceptional skills!
My g/father from Co. Monaghan was in Co. Antrim when he was head-hunted ended up in Co Carlow.... no migration pattern!
-
As promised here is Ancestry's reply
Thank you for contacting Ancestry in regard to incorrect record.
Thank you for bringing this oversight to our attention. We are happy to help. We always strive to ensure that the information we provide is accurate. Please note that we generally receive data from outside sources and post it as it was provided to us. In order to maintain authenticity in our records, we cannot make changes directly to material not created by Ancestry.com. To make these types of changes, you will need to contact the original creators of this data, have them correct this in their own records and then send this update to us for posting. We apologize for any frustration or inconvenience this may cause.
This looks like a cut and paste standard reply so no joy there.
-
Yes and reinforces the need to check original sources rather than sources such as Ancestry.
Griffiths is online in other non-paying places.
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/
https://www.nli.ie/en/griffiths-valuation.aspx
-
As promised here is Ancestry's reply
Thank you for contacting Ancestry in regard to incorrect record.
Thank you for bringing this oversight to our attention. We are happy to help. We always strive to ensure that the information we provide is accurate. Please note that we generally receive data from outside sources and post it as it was provided to us. In order to maintain authenticity in our records, we cannot make changes directly to material not created by Ancestry.com. To make these types of changes, you will need to contact the original creators of this data, have them correct this in their own records and then send this update to us for posting. We apologize for any frustration or inconvenience this may cause.
This looks like a cut and paste standard reply so no joy there.
Translation: Ancestry take no responsibility for the utter BS they post on their site, at a hefty cost to you.
-
As promised here is Ancestry's reply
Thank you for contacting Ancestry in regard to incorrect record.
Thank you for bringing this oversight to our attention. We are happy to help. We always strive to ensure that the information we provide is accurate. Please note that we generally receive data from outside sources and post it as it was provided to us. In order to maintain authenticity in our records, we cannot make changes directly to material not created by Ancestry.com. To make these types of changes, you will need to contact the original creators of this data, have them correct this in their own records and then send this update to us for posting. We apologize for any frustration or inconvenience this may cause.
This looks like a cut and paste standard reply so no joy there.
Translation: Ancestry take no responsibility for the utter BS they post on their site, at a hefty cost to you.
Yes agree and the sad thing is that some never stray from Ancestry, never check the sources, blithely follow and incorporate the hints etc etc.
I am very keen on the online GV with the Place Names tool to find the occupants of a particular townland - found relations, spouses families, neighbours who emigrated etc etc from this.
-
With the help of one of my American cousins we think we have found the solution to this.
Where there is the designation 'Senior' against a name (sen), Ancestry's search engine is showing the name as Esquire MD. No idea why but it's obviously a glitch in their program.
We have tried with many name searches over several counties and it seems to be the solution which would account for over fifteen thousand entries returning this title.
No point in telling Ancestry this as they don't listen.
So I'm posting it here in the hope it will be of help to others who encounter this glitch.