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Research in Other Countries => United States of America => Topic started by: dtcoulson on Friday 15 February 19 08:58 GMT (UK)
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Hi people
One of the tricky people in my family tree is Elizabeth Sanderson Coulson, born in England in 1893.
According to family folklore she married and followed her husband to "Asia" where she died. Unfortunately no-one can be more specific as to where she went.
Today I happened to see data on a tree in Ancestry that looks as though it could be relevant.
Russell Flint Maddren, born in New York in 1887, died in California in 1974.
There is an obituary describing the man, although I can only see a tiny part of it.
He was a doctor.
--> His wife was Elizabeth Sanderson Maddren, born 1893, and she died in China.
Not being a subscription holder at Ancestry I can;t see the tree in full and I can't
contact the author of the tree.
Can I ask someone to look into this data and find Elizabeth's maiden name?
If it turns out to be Coulson, can we track the wedding back to England circa WW1?
I am not familiar at all with genealogical resources in the US.
Any help will be appreciated.
-Thanks
David C
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We can check for a wedding in England certainly - can't see one but is Sanderson her middle name?
Would the marriage not be in the US?
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The tree gives 2 spouses
1905 Maria Pavlovna Roumartchuk
Elizabeth Coulson or Carlson
but no info apart from the name I'm afraid.
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The marriage to Maria is 31 Dec 1935 not 1905 - she was born 1905 so that doesn't tally does it :-\
Both residing Shanghai China.
If Elizabeth was his wife when he died they must have married after Maria not before.
His WW1 registration card in 1917 says he has a wife so ???
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US Passport application for Russell names his wife Elizabeth Coulson Maddren.
Says he was in India 1909-1910 but not when he married but I believe it says for his wife born Detroit Michigan.
Hopefully someone can double check all this for you.
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Death for Elizabeth Coulson Maddren 5 Nov 1923 Shanghai China age 27. Born 15 April 1896.
Spouse R F Maddren.
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Aha the marriage at last :D
Elizabeth Sanderson Caulson - father Thomas - mother Mary
22 May 1917
Vancouver Washington
Elizabeth born Detroit Michigan and her second marriage
father born England
mother born Ireland
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Great work Milliepede
You say you have seen his WW1 record?
What information does this reveal?
Was he stationed in England?
This might be how he and Elizabeth met.
I am prepared to believe that the POB=Detroit is some kind of convenient deception.
The DOB in 1896 is a bit of a problem, however, as my Elizabeth was born in 1893.
Another convenient deception?
Oh BTW, there is an obituary from the San Mateo Times dated sometime in 1970
that records the death of a relative of Dr Russell F Maddren though I can't see what connection
he may have to the Dr. A son perhaps?
-David C
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marriage record - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G969-YSV7?i=571&cc=1534448
under Elizabeth S Coulter (aged 24 years) on anc - and Russell Hint Maddren aged 30 years on the marriage avadavit
Sandra
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Times St Mateo (California) - 31 October 1974
Sandra
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WW1 Draft - Russell Flint Maddren -
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K6ZT-3H6
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-917Y-9JM5?cc=1968530
Sandra
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Independent (Long Beach, California) 05 Mar 1970, Thu - Page 44
Ruth Russell - aged 91 years born NY
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/28440897/ruth_russell/
Sandra
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Russell F Maddren born 1887 Brooklyn NY remarried to Maria Pavlovna Roumartchuk born Nicolaevsk, Russia - 31 December 1935 - Apartment of The Judge of The United States Court For China - Shanghai, China.
Sandra
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The San Francisco Examiner (San Francisco, California) 4 Jan 1911, Wed - Page 15
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/28440936/r_f_maddren/
Sandra
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There was a marriage Russell F Maddren and Edith Woodward - 20 January 1914 - Manhattan, New Yor.
Certificate - 3373
Sandra
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The Brooklyn Daily Eagle (Brooklyn, New York) 21 Jun 1914, Sun - [FIRST EDITION] - Page 63
Edith Gladys Woodward/Maddren - passed away June 19th 1914
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/28440989/ethel_gladys_woodwardmaddren/
Sandra
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You probably have it but this is the FIND A GRAVE entry for Elizabeth Coulson Madden.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/117384081
Sandra
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New York, State and Federal Naturalization Record - Caroline (Augusta Marie Caroline Maddren) Maddren - 23/7/2897 Copenhagen - married Russell born 22 January 1887 - marriage 10 July 1925 - Pekin China -
arrived in NY from montreal on the Del & Hudson 23 November 1927 -
Affidavits signed by Russell F Maddren Physician - Harthe Arms Graffing Pl Freeport LI.
and Isetta Ross 34 Grand Ave Freeport LI.
8 May 1929
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XGZB-6PX
https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/1840491
Sandra
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The Brooklyn Daily Eagle (Brooklyn, New York) 29 Aug 1921, Mon - Page 2
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/28441255/dr_maddren/
Sandra
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Perhaps Russell and Augusta Marie divorced ...............
The Brooklyn Daily Eagle (Brooklyn, New York) 11 Apr 1931, Sat - Page 11
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/28441277/augusta_marie_maddren/
Sandra
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Canadian passenger List shows Russell and Augusta Marie Maddren - 16 November 1925 arriving Vancouver BC on the Empress of Canada.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDZ7-TVJ
Border crossing Vermont St Albans - 22 November 1927 - Marie Augusta - father Jens Eberruf
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QK3R-V1ZL
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-9981-H9S9-G?i=64&cc=2185163
New York Passenger List - sailing from Liverpool 9 March 1929 - Russell Maddren aged 42 years - doctor - last residence Shangai China - going to Long beach Marie 31 years -
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-G547-9431?i=280&cc=1923888
Sandra
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What an interesting fellow Russell was!
Anyway, some points of confirmation:
() Elizabeth's surname is clearly Coulson, not Caulson.
() Her age at marriage confirms birth in 1893. Not sure where the 1896 reference came from.
() Her mother I thought was born in Scotland but Ireland is certainly plausible. Many Irish migrated to England and Scotland in the nineteenth century. She may have grown up in Scotland.
() The newspaper confirms that Russell went to England, making it possible to have met Elizabeth there.
-DC
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Thank you, Sandra. That has been an enormous volume of work.
I don't think I have ever seen so much data on anyone before.
I'm getting dizzy trying to keep track of Russell's marriages.
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Happy to help ;) Partial copy - U.S., Applications for Seaman's Protection Certificate - 6 June 1924
Sandra
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I have a photograph of Elizabeth and her unnamed husband from about 1920, given to me two years ago by a descendant of Elizabeth's brother.
I have cropped the picture down to the husband's face and placed it next to the photo ID supplied by Sandra, dated 1924.
That's a pretty good face match, I would say.
Even the glasses match.
-DC
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A question now about the year 1917.
Elizabeth & Russell married in Washington State in 1917,
just months before America's entry to WW1.
Would passengers have been able to travel freely from the UK to the US at this time?
For comparison, I have an ancestor who was unable to return to the the UK from NZ in 1917
because passenger services were disrupted/cancelled due to the war.
If it was truly the case that passage in and out of the UK was impossible during wartime,
then we'd be forced to say that Elizabeth and her Mum had been in the US before 1914.
Opinions, anybody?
-DC
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Don't know if this is her but there is an Elizabeth Coulson age 19 on a passenger list 22 July 1913 travelling from Liverpool to Boston on the "Franconia"
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The age is exactly right.
But no other Coulsons on the same trip?
That would imply she went unaccompanied.
Quite a brave thing for her to do; brave or rash.
Her mother was Florence Mary Coulson (nee Doyle).
Florence had an alias of Sheila Montague at some stage, according to Elizabeth's niece.
And as we have seen on the marriage cert, she may also have called herself Mary Allen.
Perhaps one of these names is on the same ship as Elizabeth in 1913?
I just checked my long-neglected notes for Florence and see that I once found a
Mary Coulson born 1870 on a ship to the US in 1910.
The age is correct but of course that is a very common name.
-DC
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A question now about the year 1917.
Elizabeth & Russell married in Washington State in 1917,
just months before America's entry to WW1.
Would passengers have been able to travel freely from the UK to the US at this time?
For comparison, I have an ancestor who was unable to return to the the UK from NZ in 1917
because passenger services were disrupted/cancelled due to the war.
If it was truly the case that passage in and out of the UK was impossible during wartime,
then we'd be forced to say that Elizabeth and her Mum had been in the US before 1914.
Opinions, anybody?
-DC
The Lusitania was sunk in 1915, so there were ships sailing after 1914.
Just to randomly pick a name, there were over 69,000 voyages for people named Smith sailing to New York between 1915 & 1918. https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3Asmith%20%2Bany_year%3A1915-1918~&collection_id=1368704 Some of them appear to be women coming from the U.K., so seems like they could have traveled then.
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Excellent analysis, Shelly. Thanks.
I am now wondering about the sequence of events leading up to 1920.
() The last known appearance of Elizabeth in the UK is an adult christening in 1912 in Cardiff.
One reason a person might do this would be to marry someone of a different faith.
() The first solid proof we have of her in the US is her wedding in 1917.
() Russell goes off to war in 1917, stating on his form that he is married.
The sequence implies that they met in the US rather than in the UK and had nothing to do with his military service. Either that or Russell spent time in the UK before America's involvement in the war. He was a famously travelled man so I would not discount this possibility.
* Can we see evidence of Russell travelling in/out of the UK in the early 1910s?
-DC
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Something new....
I obtained this data from FindMyPast:
[]
Coulson Elizabeth Sanderson
1915
United States Marriages
Oregon, United States
[]
Note the year is 1915.
There is a similar record for her marriage in 1917
so this appears to be a genuine, earlier marriage.
Can someone look into this and identify her husband?
-DC
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Something new....
I obtained this data from FindMyPast:
[]
Coulson Elizabeth Sanderson
1915
United States Marriages
Oregon, United States
[]
Note the year is 1915.
There is a similar record for her marriage in 1917
so this appears to be a genuine, earlier marriage.
Can someone look into this and identify her husband?
-DC
With the help of Groom we have found this marriage.............big thank you to Groom ;)
Elizabeth Sanderson Coulson - 5 June 1915 Oregon. Spouse Chester Eli Nichols.
They were married in the house of Mary Nichols in the presence of Florence Coulson.
Sandra
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Wonder if this could be Florence Coulson.............. ???
Portland, Oregon, City Directory, 1915 - Florence Coulson - 374 3d Portland Oregon. (Described as nurse on another entry ???)
Portland, Oregon, City Directory, 1920 - Florence Coulson - r Multinomah Hotel.
Sandra
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WW1 Draft for Chester shows him single -
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K6ZT-BFQ
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-81W9-335?i=4050&cc=1968530
Sandra
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1930 census says Chester was first married at 22 years old which would be right for the marriage to Elizabeth Coulson.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XCSQ-HHG
married Margaret Engelgan 13 April 1926 Vancouver Washington.
Sandra
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Thanks Sandra & Groom.
Since Elizabeth and her mother are my primary focus,
I am glad that you were able to put both together in Oregon in 1915 (at E's first wedding).
I wonder what motivated them to come to the US, particularly to Portland?
And did they arrive together or at separate times?
I flicked through my old notes for Elizabeth's brother Thomas Smith Coulson (b.1896)
and surprised myself with a note I'd forgotten I wrote:
that TSC went to the US in 1914 (briefly) before coming back to settle in 1921/22 (in Portland of course). I did not record very thorough notes in my early days so it is hard for me to backtrack.
Could I inspire one of you to have a look for TSC in 1914?
I think he landed in New York, or perhaps one of the other large eastern ports.
Maybe there will be evidence of Elizabeth and Florence on the same journey?
For my part I will see if I can track back to the source of that clue.
-DC
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Finally found it!
Whereas there is no evidence of Thomas Coulson travelling to the US circa 1914 in any of the travel/immigration/passenger databases we have access to online, there is a travel card issued to TSC upon his arrival in the US in 1921 on which he was asked if he had been in the US before.
** He writes that he had been in the US between 1911 and May 1914 and had stayed in Portland.
There is no clue as to why he chose to go there or whether he was meeting up with people he knew living there.
-DC
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FindMyPast (travel) shows
--> Florence Mary Doyle applying for citizenship in Massachussetts in 1917.
FMD is Elizabeth's mother.
I can't see the image itself to see if there are useful details on it.
Can someone take a peek and itemise any details that could be useful?
-DC
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From what I can see, it is actually Robert Emmett Doyle aged 29, born Charlottetown, Prince Edward Islland 16th Feb 1889 who is applying for naturalisation. He is married to Mary Florence who was born Revere Massachusetts. Not sure if this is who you are looking for.
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Haha,,, my bad luck.
Hello again, Groom. Thanks for setting the record straight.
I've been trying to work out the 'story' behind this family moving to Portland.
Can we double check Elizabeth Coulson's passage to the US in 1913?
I don't know what contextual detail is associated with this record, but it
would be worth discovering if she is married to someone else, as in the above case.
-DC
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Elizabeth Coulson age 19 on a passenger list 22 July 1913 travelling from Liverpool to Boston on the "Franconia". There is no other information on the image and no middle initial unlike others on the page, so I’m afraid you can’t even be 100 % sure this is her as on other records she always seems to use the middle name or initial.
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Quite right on that observation, Groome.
On all other records she gives her full middle name (Sanderson).
I think I'm ready to call it a day on this search topic.
We've already found Elizabeth's husband and her tragic fate in China so I think the search has already been highly successful. Finding her mother in the US would have been a nice extra.
Thanks all
-DC
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The Washington Passenger and Crew Card that shows Thomas Smith Coulson - Heborn - aged 25 years - with a wife Winnifred Beatrice Coulson - last permanent adddress was Stratford Ontario. Does say he had been in the USA November 1911 NY - 1914 Portland - also that his mother Florence Coulson lived at 22 nd St Portland Oregon.
If he was born 1897, he would have been quite young to be in the USA in 1911 so presumable other family members were also with him ???
Sandra
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Normally the declaration of intention or naturalization certificate gives all the deatils of when they first arrive, date, port etc. the ones for Thomas don't. :-\
Sandra
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Thomas S Coulson Jnr certainly went thru a few wives - Winnifred, Elsie and Caroline. Gave his mother as Mary Doyle on the last one in 1939.
We know mother Florence was in the USA - what happened to the father ?
Is Thomas Smith Coulson Snr the one born 16 July 1866 who passed away in 1919 - ???
Sandra
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Wonder if this could be Florence Coulson.............. ???
Portland, Oregon, City Directory, 1915 - Florence Coulson - 374 3d Portland Oregon. (Described as nurse on another entry ???)
Portland, Oregon, City Directory, 1920 - Florence Coulson - r Multinomah Hotel.
Sandra
Interestingly/Coincidence - Portland, Oregon, City Directory, 1925 - Mary Coulson - nurse Multinomah Hotel
Thomas S (painter) and Elsie were living at h 1400 Corbett in the same directory.
Sandra
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There was an Agnes Doyle - sister -in-law on the 1901 census Chester Le Street Durham -
RG13 Piece 4699 Folio 30 Page 8 - did you trace Agnes Doyle ???
Thomas S Coulson 34 Mary F Coulson 29
Elizabeth F Coulson 7 Thomas S Coulson 4
Agnes E Dayle 21
Sandra
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I'll pop these links to previous threads on the family..............find myself digging up whats already been done. :-\
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=703464.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=744143.0
Sandra
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To save you some time, Sandra, the life of Thomas S Coulson snr is well mapped out.
Born 1866/67 in South Shields, Durham, England.
Was a painter all of his life, lived in many locations across the UK.
Thomas jnr's daughter who is now approx 90 has told me she never heard of
her father's father ever coming to America, and there is no record of him ever doing so.
Thomas snr died in Edmonton, Middlesex, England in 1937.
The life of Thomas jnr is also well recorded.
Born in South Shields in 1896, he married in 1919, took his wife to Canada
to try a life of farming. He arrived just in time to appear in the 1921 Canada census.
The marriage broke down, as did his career aspirations.
By Nov 1921 he was in Vancouver BC applying to cross over into Washington State.
He made two attempts to do so.
On one form he claims he intended to stay with his mother, in Portland Oregon.
Thomas jnr applied for and gained citizenship 1922-24.
He married in 1924, then again sometime after that (can't remember offhand).
He passed away in Portland, 1972.
He also appears on some 1940 draft registration card.
Like his father, he was a painter, of trucks and railway carriages I think.
He has a number of children and grandchildren.
Thomas jnr's mother (and Elizabeth's mother too) was Florence Mary or Mary Florence Coulson nee Doyle. Her UK census data says that she was born in Scotland although her daughter in 1915 seems to think that she was born in Ireland (first wedding). She is absent from the 1911 UK census which hints at least that she may have been in America by then. However she does not appear in any US census using her proper name. Thomas's daughter told me in email correspondence that she sometimes went by one or more false names, and that she survived at least into the 1950s. She has been an extremely difficult character to trace.
Yes I did try to trace Agnes 'Dayle' (Doyle) some years ago, without much success. I found her in the 1891 UK census with other family members. I pondered the possibility that these Doyle family members might have gone to the US too but could not reach any conclusions from the data.
Your observation that Thomas would have been very young when he first went to Portland is something that escaped my attention until you mentioned it. He would have been 15 years old!
I don't believe he would have gone unaccompanied by an elder so the evidence points towards his mum being that elder (since his father did not go).
If you can turn up anything new on these people I will be delighted.
But there are not many stones left unturned.
-DC
-DC
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SOME QUESTIONS
* When did the US first require travel documentation for entry to the country?
Thomas jnr left a paper trail when he arrived in 1921 but left no such trail when he arrived in 1911.
Does this mean that travellers in general did not get processed in any way in 1911?
If that is the case we would not expect to see data for Florence if she arrived in 1911 with her son.
* We found the name of Elizabeth's parents in the 1915 wedding. Would we see the same names on her 1917 wedding? Would we also see these names on the two US weddings of Thomas jnr?
This could be helpful if Florence was inclined to vary her name.
We might get to see some of these alternatives and then trace her in some of the censuses.
* If Florence arrived in 1911, would she have needed to apply for citizenship, as her son did ten years later?
If Florence failed to be granted citizenship, might this be a reason she used false names on occasions, perhaps to avoid drawing attention to herself? Was this even an issue in 1911?
-DC
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I have reviewed the email correspondence I had with Thomas jnr's daughter in 2016.
Here are relevant clues to the life of her grandmother, (other parts of the correspondence omitted)
[start]
... His mother, Mary, claimed to have Irish parents.
..... She lived in California in 1930"s. Lived in San Diego area in 1949. Lived in Hollywood in Hotel Gotham on Highland street in 1952. She was using an assumed name at this time, Sheila Montague No word of her after that. ....
[end]
-DC
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* We found the name of Elizabeth's parents in the 1915 wedding. Would we see the same names on her 1917 wedding? Would we also see these names on the two US weddings of Thomas jnr?
Marriage of Thomas to Caroline 17 June 1939 names his parents as
Thomas Coulson born England
Mary Doyle born Ireland
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SOME QUESTIONS
* When did the US first require travel documentation for entry to the country?
Thomas jnr left a paper trail when he arrived in 1921 but left no such trail when he arrived in 1911.
Does this mean that travellers in general did not get processed in any way in 1911?
If that is the case we would not expect to see data for Florence if she arrived in 1911 with her son.
* We found the name of Elizabeth's parents in the 1915 wedding. Would we see the same names on her 1917 wedding? Would we also see these names on the two US weddings of Thomas jnr?
This could be helpful if Florence was inclined to vary her name.
We might get to see some of these alternatives and then trace her in some of the censuses.
* If Florence arrived in 1911, would she have needed to apply for citizenship, as her son did ten years later?
If Florence failed to be granted citizenship, might this be a reason she used false names on occasions, perhaps to avoid drawing attention to herself? Was this even an issue in 1911?
-DC
There were passenger lists in 1911 and long before that. My guess would be that you just didn't find the passenger list yet or it doesn't still exist. I would also take the exact time frame given for a past arrival with a grain of salt, as memories fade or mistakes in writing things down were made.
Immigrants definitely did not need to apply for citizenship on arrival then. I think five years of residency was required to be naturalized then. I think men applied for naturalization more frequently then than women did, so not terribly surprising that her son would. I don't think they were trying to kick out law-abiding people who weren't living in the poorhouse in those days, so she probably did not change her name to dodge the immigration authorities.
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Oh no just lost my whole post >:(
Anyway looking around for Agnes Doyle. If I have found Mary Doyle in 1891 born Scotland she has a brother John also born Scotland.
Agnes is only 21 in 1901 so can't have been married that long.
Long shot but John Doyle marriage in 1900 St Saviour
One of the two brides is Agnes Mary Wilson. Other bride Jessie Mabel Rhodes.
Other groom Walter Richard Garrett.
Long shot as can't see the marriage online but it would make her a sister in law.
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So it looks as though Elizabeth's Mum alternated between 'Mary Coulson' & 'Mary Doyle' right through her later years. But there is a strong bias towards 'Mary' over 'Florence'.
The documents that claim she was born in Ireland are documents in which the adult children have filled out the details. They may have been incorrect on her place of birth. Yes, Irish by descent but could easily have been born in Scotland to a migrant family.
Am wondering whether there had been a formal termination to the marriage of Mary & Thomas snr?
She continued to use his surname as her own. But once again it could be that the adult children were thinking of her as Mary Coulson as this had been the name they had known her by throughout their childhood. On documents that she herself fills out, she may have switched back to Doyle. Only the discovery of more documents will tell.
Thanks for the commentary on immigration in the 1910s.
Mary's granddaughter never mentioned her having a husband so it looks as though
Mary survived on her own talents throughout her life. That would imply naturalisation
five years after arrival rather than dependency on a spouse.
-DC
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Got something that looks good.
1920 US census
Mary B Dayle
Multnomah, Oregon
born abt 1878.
Have examined the form.
She is a nurse trainee living in an accommodation block with many other trainees on the hospital compound. St Vincents Hospital, Cornell Rd.
She claims born in Ireland (okay, opposite to what I suggested earlier), to Irish parents.
Arrived in the US in 1908 and achieved citizenship by naturalisation in 1918.
'Dayle' could easily be 'Doyle' due to the handwriting.
I was hoping to prove that the middle initial was a poorly scribbled 'F' but it is clearly a 'B'.
Opinions, anyone?
-DC
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Same woman again in 1910 and 1930
United States Census, 1910
Mary B Doyle
Employee
birth: 1878 Ireland
residence: 1910 Portland Ward 3, Multnomah, Oregon, United States
immigration: 1908
United States Census, 1930
Mary B Doyle
Head
birth: 1878 Ireland
residence: 1930 Portland (Districts 1-219), Multnomah, Oregon, United States
immigration: 1908
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Pah!
The 1940 US Census for Mary B Doyle shows she is still a nurse and still living in Portland,
now sharing a house with a niece from Ireland.
This is a problem because (a) our Mary was supposed to be living in California by 1940 according to the recollection of her granddaughter and (b) our Mary is unlikely to have had a niece from Ireland given that she grew up in Scotland and England. (Not to say impossible however).
This tips the scale for me. If Mary the nurse from Portland is not our Mary in 1940 then we have to write off all references to Mary the nurse, from 1915, 1920 etc. This brings us back to square one with this lady.
I have seen census records of a Mary Doyle living in California in 1930 and 1940, a woman born in Ireland in the early 1870s who was working as a servant. This could be our Mary but I have seen too many near-misses now to have much confidence in the conclusion.
I'm out of ideas. Anybody else?
-DC
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Tough isn't it :-\
Who is the niece in 1940, maybe we could look for her just to rule this Mary out.
Even a death for the Mary B Doyle might help. There is one in Georgia in 1953 age 74 but no other details.
There are Mary Doyle's on passenger lists around 1908 but no helpful middle initial :(
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Well the niece is Theresa M Doyle born 1919. Possible Theresa Margaret Doyle arriving 1937. There are papers for her and a naturalisation petition in Los Angeles 1943.
People speaking for her are Mary V Collier? nurse (if only it said Coulson we would be in business!)
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Passenger list for her under Bridget Doyle 18 Jul 1937 - matches other info which gave Bridget name as well -
says "friends name M B Doyle" so that must be the Mary B.
Father P or could be F Doyle Killchin? Carlow paid for her passage.
Going to join a relative "Aunt M B Doyle 2424 North West Johnston St Portland Oregon"
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Ah found a better death for Mary B Doyle in 1960 Portland Multnomah County Oregon that must be her so do you think we can rule her out?
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https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/143594989/mary-b_-doyle
When I looked yesterday, the 1908 passenger list on the Mauretania, gave Mary Doyle born 1878 Kilkenny Ireland (Florence Mary/Mary F Coulson was born 1872)
Mary was travelling with a Bridget Doyle also from Kilkenny and they were going to New York. Had been in the USA 1897 - 1907 NY
There is also a second Mary Doyle - 1878 graegue (Graigue ???) Ireland - 27 June 1908 on the Celtic - confectioner going to brother Michael Portland Oregon.
I think Mary B Doyle is a red herring.
Sandra
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Didn't come across anything in Hollywood Los Angeles California for Sheila Montague.
https://www.geni.com/people/James-Doyle/6000000072251355911
Sandra
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That link shows Agnes E Doyle as a sister to Florence Mary so that census with Agnes sister in law is correct but I thought it said she was married.
I agree Mary B Doyle is a red herring.
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Got something that looks good.
1920 US census
Mary B Dayle
Multnomah, Oregon
born abt 1878.
Have examined the form.
She is a nurse trainee living in an accommodation block with many other trainees on the hospital compound. St Vincents Hospital, Cornell Rd.
She claims born in Ireland (okay, opposite to what I suggested earlier), to Irish parents.
Arrived in the US in 1908 and achieved citizenship by naturalisation in 1918.
'Dayle' could easily be 'Doyle' due to the handwriting.
I was hoping to prove that the middle initial was a poorly scribbled 'F' but it is clearly a 'B'.
Opinions, anyone?
-DC
Same woman again in 1910 and 1930
United States Census, 1910
Mary B Doyle
Employee
birth: 1878 Ireland
residence: 1910 Portland Ward 3, Multnomah, Oregon, United States
immigration: 1908
United States Census, 1930
Mary B Doyle
Head
birth: 1878 Ireland
residence: 1930 Portland (Districts 1-219), Multnomah, Oregon, United States
immigration: 1908
Pah!
The 1940 US Census for Mary B Doyle shows she is still a nurse and still living in Portland,
now sharing a house with a niece from Ireland.
This is a problem because (a) our Mary was supposed to be living in California by 1940 according to the recollection of her granddaughter and (b) our Mary is unlikely to have had a niece from Ireland given that she grew up in Scotland and England. (Not to say impossible however).
This tips the scale for me. If Mary the nurse from Portland is not our Mary in 1940 then we have to write off all references to Mary the nurse, from 1915, 1920 etc. This brings us back to square one with this lady.
I have seen census records of a Mary Doyle living in California in 1930 and 1940, a woman born in Ireland in the early 1870s who was working as a servant. This could be our Mary but I have seen too many near-misses now to have much confidence in the conclusion.
I'm out of ideas. Anybody else?
-DC
Ah found a better death for Mary B Doyle in 1960 Portland Multnomah County Oregon that must be her so do you think we can rule her out?
This should help clarify and/or eliminate this Mary B. Doyle.
Oregonian
Portland, Oregon
January 2, 1961
Obits:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01nf2/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01nf3/
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Yep. The evidence is now pretty solid that Mary B and Mary F are different people.
A 1908 arrival for our Mary would also have been difficult as it means her son Tommy arrived unaccompanied at the age of 15, or accompanied by some we don't know about.
Switching direction now, it seems to me that Mary F and her son probably came out to the US on the same ship in 1911. She has never been found in the UK 1911 census but that does not mean she is not there. Perhaps we could have another go at finding her in that census?
She would be any of these:
* Mary F Coulson / Doyle
* Florence Mary Doyle / Coulson
Born 1869-72.
Ireland or Scotland.
Likely living in Wales as her husband and children are all there at that time.
-DC
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Are father and son together in 1911?
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Are father and son together in 1911?
1911 census free index - Llandilofawr Carmarthenshire
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7N1-Q3V
Sandra
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Thomas may have invented 1911, without proof its purely guess work. Mary could have immigrated alone - she is the only one you seem to say is not on the 1911 census in Wales ???
Not all information contained in census, passenger lists or other documentation is gospel -
Usually a naturalization document would give the ship and date of arrival, Thomas doesn't on his naturalization document.
The 1911 England and Wales census is available free on family search if it helps.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/1921547
Sandra
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Not her but whilst looking I came across a Mary Doyle born "Bublins" ;D
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IF this is the same Elizabeth Sanderson Coulson baptism 1912 - Cardiff St. John, Glamorgan, Wales - Florence - Mary/Florence could well have been in Cardiff in 1912 ???
(Wales, Glamorgan Parish Registers, 1558-1900)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFCX-RNJ
Sandra
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Without going back to read the other threads ............... Was there any military records for Thomas Smith Coulson Snr or Jnr ?
Sandra
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Just out of interest where does the middle name Sanderson come from? Might Mary be under that name :-\
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Was there any military records for Thomas Smith Coulson Snr or Jnr ?
There was a junior one in the US if I recall, registration papers or something.
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Oregonian
Portland, Oregon
January 17, 1923
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With the help of the filing for divorce in 1923 -
You can discount Thomas S Coulson 47 June qtr 1916 Sunderland vol 10a pg 805 on one of the other threads - leaves Thomas S Coulson 67 Dec qtr 1932 South Shields vol 10a pg 822 a possibility ???
Have you got the birth certificate for Thomas Smith Coulson Snr ? An exact date of birth might help locate him. ???
Sandra
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"leaves Thomas S Coulson 67 Dec qtr 1932 South Shields vol 10a pg 822 a possibility"
A number of anc tree's claims this one is Thomas Septimus Coulson - so another to discount
Sandra
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"leaves Thomas S Coulson 67 Dec qtr 1932 South Shields vol 10a pg 822 a possibility"
A number of anc tree's claims this one is Thomas Septimus Coulson - so another to discount
Sandra
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Just out of interest where does the middle name Sanderson come from? Might Mary be under that name :-\
From this link -TSC (Blacksmith) Coulson - son of Joseph Coulson and Isabella Smith and
Husband of Elizabeth Sanderson.
https://www.geni.com/people/TSC-Coulson/6000000020641406387
Sandra
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Wonder if this could be Florence Coulson.............. ???
Portland, Oregon, City Directory, 1915 - Florence Coulson - 374 3d Portland Oregon. (Described as nurse on another entry ???)
Portland, Oregon, City Directory, 1920 - Florence Coulson - r Multinomah Hotel.
Sandra
Interestingly/Coincidence - Portland, Oregon, City Directory, 1925 - Mary Coulson - nurse Multinomah Hotel
Thomas S (painter) and Elsie were living at h 1400 Corbett in the same directory.
Sandra
Quite possibly these city directory entries are Mary (Florence) Coulson - last sighting 1925 so far
Sandra
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With the help of the filing for divorce in 1923 -
You can discount Thomas S Coulson 47 June qtr 1916 Sunderland vol 10a pg 805 on one of the other threads - leaves Thomas S Coulson 67 Dec qtr 1932 South Shields vol 10a pg 822 a possibility ???
Have you got the birth certificate for Thomas Smith Coulson Snr ? An exact date of birth might help locate him. ???
Sandra
Thomas Smith Coulson - 16 Jul 1866 - christening date - 10 Oct 1866
St. Hildas, South Shields, Durham. Father - Thomas Coulson and Mother's Name Elizabeth Coulson.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJ43-DDQ
Sandra
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Slowly, guys... don't get too carried away with the Thomas Smith Coulsons of South Shields. It'll drive you mad.
There are fourteen Thomas Smith Coulsons in or from South Shields, twelve of them related descendants of a Joseph Coulson born in 1811. See my Geni tree where I abbreviate them all as TSC (Sandra has found it).
The man you are calling Thomas Snr is Thomas Smith Coulson born South Shields in July 16 1866. He is the son of TSC born 1838. Don't confuse him with the other fellows by that name born 1864, 1867, 1868, 1871 and 1876.
Thomas Snr - TSC(1866) - was a painter and lived all over the place in the UK. His American granddaughter is pretty confident that he never went to the US but this of course is not conclusive. I have traced him in the electoral rolls living in Leicestershire in the early 1920s. He died in Edmonton in 1937.
The name Sanderson enters the family via Elizabeth Sanderson who marries TSC(1838) in 1859. She is the mother of TSC(1866) - Thomas Snr in your posts.
TSC(1896) - Thomas Jnr - son of Mary F, was in the Middlesex Regiment in WW1 and served at Cambrai 1917. He was temporarily blinded in both eyes, was discharged in 1918 I think, Recovered sight in one eye.
(pause for breath)
I acknowledge your suggestion that TSC(1896) - who you are calling Thomas Jnr - could have fabricated his previous visit to the US in 1911 but I see no reason for him to do that.
The divorce notice in Oregon in 1923 looks highly significant. But how meaningful is this if one party is in the UK and the other is in the US? Whose judicial system is invoked? Do both parties have to be in the US for this to proceed?
The way I view this at the moment:
Mary F did separate from her husband but this did not necessarily precede the 1911 census.
In 1911 her husband in LLandillo regards himself as still married. Perhaps she was just away from the house that day? I am speculating. I have tried once again to find her in the 1911 and she still does not appear anywhere.
Anyway, if I allow that she did not split with her husband until after the census, she is then able to accompany her son to Portland in 1911. It would be sensible to assume that her daughter went along at the same time, yet we have evidence of her going through an adult christening in Cardiff in 1912, so that is a strange and awkward twist.
There is still the possibility that the whole family went over in 1911, that the father and children did not like it there and returned to the UK. All this would have happened well before the birth of the granddaughter in 1931 (or close) in which case she might never have known of their visit.
* I am interested in your discovery of divorces involving men of that name.
That detail is new to me and I would like to investigate it further.
Hope this clarifies things
-DC
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What's the adult baptism in 1912?
Doesn't she already have a baptism on 4 Apr 1894
Elizabeth Sanderson Coulson
- father Thomas mother Mariae Doyle Coulson
Please don't tell me that's someone else!
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The divorce notice in Oregon in 1923 looks highly significant. But how meaningful is this if one party is in the UK and the other is in the US? Whose judicial system is invoked? Do both parties have to be in the US for this to proceed?
* I am interested in your discovery of divorces involving men of that name.
That detail is new to me and I would like to investigate it further.
Oregonian
Portland, Oregon
March 8, 1923
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Fear not, Millie,
Elizabeth's baptism in 1912 identifies her parents correctly, and her family was indeed in this area at about this time. Elizabeth appears as a servant or a visitor (don't recall which) in Cardiff in 1911, and her brother and father are in Llandillo in 1911, presumably on a short term work project. Only her mother is absent.
The Latinised spellings would imply a faith conversion to RC ? Correct me if I'm wrong.
Elizabeth would have been 18/19 years old in 1912.
Three years later she is in the US getting married, unless THAT is a coincidence of names.
-DC
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*** quote ***
Was there any military records for Thomas Smith Coulson Snr or Jnr ?
There was a junior one in the US if I recall, registration papers or something.
*** end ***
Millie, can I see this data you are referring to?
If the name "Smith" is included, this is highly significant.
There is a draft registration form for Thomas jnr in 1940 or thereabouts.
Hopefully you are talking about something different.
-DC
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While organising all the new data into a single timeline I noticed that Elizabeth and Russell married just 12 days before Russell filled out a draft registration form in which he claims exemption due to an unspecified disability. (The disability is not blindness or loss of limb and it did not stop him from becoming a surgeon at almost the exact same time). He also describes his wife Elizabeth as 'solely dependent' on him. They were married before a JP so I assume this was a reg office wedding.
I thought this was an interesting convergence of dates but am not sure what importance it may have.
I also notice that all the weddings for this Coulson family take place in County Clarke, Vancouver, Washington even though everyone lives in Portland. Is there a reason for this? Surely Portland is a city big enough to have its own marriage registrar.
On the 1917 marriage cert Elizabeth falsely gives her birth place as Michigan
(we can be sure of this now). Why would she do this?
The 1917 marriage cert also falsely identifies her mother as Mary Allen.
The spelling is very clear. Why would she do this?
Her death cert from China Feb 1924 describes her as the wife of a US citizen rather than a citizen herself; or perhaps that she is an American citizen as a consequence of her marriage. Either way, why would she not have been a US citizen since her first marriage in 1915?
-DC