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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Ruskie on Monday 18 February 19 23:37 GMT (UK)
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I hope someone can give me some advice and guidance regarding the application process for a (possible) claim to an Irish peerage. Does anyone have any personal experience of this?
I find this a complex subject and know nothing apart from what I have found via google in the past day or two. I would also be grateful for any help interpreting the information on this link:
https://www.debretts.com/expertise/essential-guide-to-the-peerage/claims-to-peerage/
The website seems to be skewed more towards English peerages though it also mentions Irish peerages (almost as an aside).
The Debretts link says you need to apply to the Lord Chancellor to be entered on the Roll. It says the application and supporting evidence is presented under the direction of the Lord Chancellor which is a bit vague.
It also says that anyone claiming a peerage should apply to the Lord Chancellor. It then says the registrar of the Roll of the Peerage is Ian Denyer who is the head of the Crown Office at the House of Lords. Is that the same thing or does he have a number of roles or does Ian Denyer pass all this on to the Lord Chancellor? I read this as indicating that Ian Denyer the person to contact in the first instance. Is this correct?
General questions about peerages:
If several people have claims do they all need to apply before being considered? It seems that anyone who may be entitled is not automatically contacted and offered the role?
Are there any duties or responsibilities or is the title in name only? (or does it depend which peerage?) :-\
Does the closest relative to the current peer take precedence over a closer relative to the "original" peer, in this case, from the 1600s. For example, the current peer is a very distant relative of the previous peer, but there may have been closer living relatives who either did not know they had any entitlement, or did not apply for the peerage upon the death of the previous peer. (sorry, that sounds very complicated) :(
The peerage in question has an "heir presumptive" according to Wikipedia, :-\ though it also says there are other distant cousins, which presumably also may have a claim to the title. Does an "heir presumptive" mean this person is already confirmed as next in line? (in which case it would be a waste of time applying) Would Ian Denyer tell me this if I enquired about this peerage? Or do you think he would consider other applicants to the title?
Do applications for the next peer need to be in place prior to the death of the current peer?
Do any applicants take priority over others, eg those living in a different country are less likely to gain the title?
Apologies for the huge thread, and for asking so many questions, but thank you for any assistance with this. :)
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Heir presumptive - an heir who expects to inherit but whose claim may be set aside by the birth of another heir.
The present Queen Elizabeth was heir presumptive to the throne when she was Princess Elizabeth. She would have been demoted by the birth of a brother. Prince Charles is heir apparent - no one can leapfrog him.
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Thanks for the reply Maiden Stone.
That makes sense.
More questions I'm afraid .... In my example do you know if the heir presumptive to a peerage could be set aside by the claim of another possible heir? (not a new birth, but another, or a closer heir genealogically speaking)
Importantly, and something I should have mentioned in my original post, the current holder of this title appears to be unmarried and childless, so the title will therefore have to pass to another branch of the family. Wiki says that the heir presumptive is a "distant cousin" and also says that "there are other distant cousins". :-\
Also as the person is said by Wikipedia (accuracy unknown) to be the heir presumptive, does that mean he has (for want of a better phrase) already applied for the job and been accepted?
The peerage used to pass only to males. Is this still the case? I recall that the first baby born to William and Kate Middleton would be the next in line to the throne no matter what sex s/he was? Does that filter onto other hereditary titles?
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The Wikipedia page on the Peerage of Ireland states:
The Crown of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland continues to exercise jurisdiction over the Peerage of Ireland, including those peers whose titles derive from places located in what is now the Republic of Ireland. Article 40.2 of the Irish Constitution forbids the state conferring titles of nobility and a citizen may not accept titles of nobility or honour except with the prior approval of the Government. As stated above, this issue does not arise in respect of the Peerage of Ireland, as no creations of titles in it have been made since the Constitution came into force.
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Ruskie, it would depend on the patent granted with a peerage, some must go to the male heir others, for example, may go to a female, as in the old Scottish earldoms.
Oscar Wilde said that "Burke's Peerage!" was the greatest work of fiction in the English language! ;D
Skoosh.
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Thank you KGarrad - I think I need to try to digest this information then will return with yet more questions. The peerage I am enquiring about relates to a place in “Northern Ireland”
Thank you too Skoosh. From what I can see this peerage is passed through the male line. At least it did when the previous peer died in the 1980s. He had daughters, and the peerage was passed to a distant male relative. Whether that is still the case today, I have no idea.
As this relates to living people obviously I am unable to mention any names, nor do I want to give too much information on a public forum as it is not my family. I am willing to do so via PM, if anyone is interested or can give further guidance. I think all I really need to know is, is it worth persuing this?
As an aside, I believe I have located the “heir presumptive” - he lives in the same (overeseas) city as the possible claimant I am attempting to assist, so it seems he might be descended through the same branch of the family.
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The College of Arms would be the place to start. They have a very helpful guide on the process and the documentary evidence required.
https://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/peers-roll-proof
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The College of Arms would be the place to start. They have a very helpful guide on the process and the documentary evidence required.
https://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/peers-roll-proof
Thanks Antony. I have nothing to lose by giving it a try. :)
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Don't forget that the title could have been transferred in a will somewhere along the line.
I have someone in the fringes of my tree who inherited an estate (only Lord of the Manor as a title though) from someone without obvious heirs in the 1830s, provided that they changed their name.
The change of name was duly reported in the London Gazette. :)
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Have a look at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peerage_of_Ireland
Which lists the 2 Dukedoms, 10 Marquessates, 43 Earldoms, 28 Viscountcies and 52 Baronies extant in the Peerage of Ireland.
It also lists the other titles held by these posts.
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Have a look at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peerage_of_Ireland
Which lists the 2 Dukedoms, 10 Marquessates, 43 Earldoms, 28 Viscountcies and 52 Baronies extant in the Peerage of Ireland.
It also lists the other titles held by these posts.
Thanks KGarrad. Yes, the Peerage is listed there (with no other titles).
Andrew. I have not gone so far as to look at wills I'm afraid. The current title is held by a remote cousin of the previous peer and though a little has been written about it there was no mention of passing the peerage in his will. I didn't know you could even do that. :) Considering the process involved it seems unlikely. :-\
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Ruskie
Would like to discuss this with you if you would like.
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Peerages are the gift of a monarch & succession to one is due to the terms of the patent granted at the time. I can't see these including passing it on to whoever? or selling it to the highest bidder for that matter?
Skoosh.
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I suggest you ask here:
https://groups.google.com/g/peerage-news
The members of the group are a mine of information.
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"succession to one is due to the terms of the patent granted at the time."
Since the original grant of a title, there have been literally dozens of changes to the occasions and methods by which it could be conferred or transferred to another individual, particularly in the modern era (since 1990). Your post is partially correct; however, your tone indicates that you know everything about it and therefore have the right to be dismissive of the OP. I believe you are in error.
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Why there are still Irish peerages in a republic is a bit strange anyhow & given that Oscar Wilde claimed that "Burke's Peerage" was the greatest work of fiction yet published in the English language but give us some examples of peerages being sold/transferred by their possessor. The earl of Home renounced his & Tony Benn's son is trying to reclaim the peerage his Socialist father fought so long to get rid of!
I believe you can buy the lordship of an English manor, not quite the same thing & possibly an imbecile might not inherit?
Skoosh.
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Hello all. I am surprised to see this old thread revived.
Thank you for the offer of help Daniel.
Unfortunately the person who may have a claim I don't think is interested in pursuing this.
The "heir presumptive" I believe might be a cousin of his, however it is difficult to get information from the possible claimant as I am relying on other people to pass on my questions, and the possible claimant knows very little about any of his family (possibly not even who his cousins are).
The possible claimant's father died last year and there were conflicts over the will so he has been preoccupied with solicitors etc.
Daniel, I am still curious to know if this person does have a claim, so depending on what information I need in order that you may be able to advise me, perhaps we could correspond via PM.
Thank you all again.
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given that Oscar Wilde claimed that "Burke's Peerage" was the greatest work of fiction yet published in the English language
You wrote that last year Skoosh!
Was Oscar Wilde a genealogist?
With my research I've been pleasantly surprised to find original documents supporting various relationships in the titled lines of our family. There are some huge gaps in the records, but that's what happens when you're attainted, then restored.
I didn't find your tone dismissive at all.
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Ah Hurworth, the sayings & wisdom of Oscar Wilde have stood the test of time & often well worth repeating. No he wasn't what might be called a genealogist but was very well acquainted with the British ruling class & its foibles. Too well acquainted some might say? ;D
"It's a wise bairn that kens his ain faither!" & history is not short of examples of very dodgy paternity amongst the land-owing class, the chastity belt surely had its uses back in the day? How many Queens "played away" for example? Off-hand, those of George I, Henry VIII & Edward II. Who was the real father of our beloved Prince Albert?
YDNA testing all round, for land & titles, might spring a few surprises! ;D
Skoosh.
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"given that Oscar Wilde claimed that "Burke's Peerage" was the greatest work of fiction yet published in the English language "
This must have been before the publication of Burke's Landed Gentry, which is about as reliable as a two-bob watch and is a nightmare for genealogists !
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I didn't find your tone dismissive at all.
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Skoosh's comments are less so now, after being edited lol.
Not a huge deal and not trying to start a fight. I dont know who is friends with whom already or anything, so maybe there is a context to that ribbing tone that I don't have.
My only point is that if people come to a forum to learn something they shouldn't be made fun of - especially using cliché digs, like being called inauthentic for simply wondering about modern rules for succession or assumption of titles.
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I suggest you ask here:
https://groups.google.com/g/peerage-news
The members of the group are a mine of information.
Unfortunately I receive a message telling me I “can’t view this page”.
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I suggest you ask here:
https://groups.google.com/g/peerage-news
The members of the group are a mine of information.
Unfortunately I receive a message telling me I “can’t view this page”.
You need to log in to Google or a g-mail account.
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I suggest you ask here:
https://groups.google.com/g/peerage-news
The members of the group are a mine of information.
Unfortunately I receive a message telling me I “can’t view this page”.
You need to log in to Google or a g-mail account.
Thanks - I will try again. :)