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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: JuneNZ on Monday 25 February 19 01:18 GMT (UK)
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We have Charles Duncan (Seaman and Bushman/Sawyer) aged 23 marrying Margaret Snoddan aged 21 in the Office of the Registrar, Dunedin, on 22 November 1858. I have been unable so far to find their shipping passenger entry into NZ.
The couple lived in the East and West Taieri areas and had children, Alexander 1862, 1866? Peter 1868, Charles 1869 and maybe Mary 1871. Son Alexander moved to the West Coast where he passed away young in 1897.
Charles and Margaret could have moved to the West Coast as there is a death for a Charles Duncan , Bushman, in the Orowaiti Middle Cemetery in the Buller Region.
Son Peter lived in the Clinton, Otago area and Charles and famly were buried at Tuatapere, Southland. I cannot find a Margaret buried with either.
She features in a couple of online Family Trees but the researchers do not have her date of death or the cemetery that she is buried in.
The possiblities that I have considered is that she could have remarried or returned to Scotland but it is probably unlikely that she left NZ when she had children with families here.
Does anyone have this couple in their family tree?
Regards, June
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Hi June,
Family Name DUNCAN
Given Names CHARLES
Address
Occupation SAWMILLER
Birth Place SCOTLAND
Age 77 years
Date Deceased Not available
Interment Date 21/09/1912
Gender Male
Denomination Protestant
Plot and Purchase Details
Cemetery Orowaiti Middle
Plot 270
Block D
Clergyman REV BURROWS
Notes
SENILE DECAY
PURCHASED
2 95 1619
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/GRA19120926.2.40?query=charles%20duncan&phrase=2&start_date=01-01-1912&end_date=31-12-1912&snippet=true&title=IT,KUMAT,LTCBG,WCT,WEST,GEST,CHARG,GRA
These items are (possibly) about your Charles?
Minniehaha.
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Yes. We think that is the correct Charles Duncan.
There was a publican in Westport with the same name and a Margaret Duncan who appears to have been a Hotel owner as well on the Coast. They are not the correct people.
Thank you for the Newspaper article. I had trolled through Papers Past and not found that one. I will add it to the toolbox and see if we can find a reference to Campbelltown Scotland anywhere else.
I knew that I should have tried RootsChat sooner!
Many thanks, June
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This may be the lady you are looking for.........
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/WCT19130905.2.12.4?query=margaret%20duncan&phrase=2&start_date=01-01-1902&end_date=31-12-1916&snippet=true
1913/7058 Duncan Margaret 78Y
[Actual date of death: 2.9.1913.]
Minniehaha
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I think that South Spit is Westport. Have not been able to find a Margaret Duncan that would fit on their Cemetery Search. I will contact Buller District Council to see if they can help.
I have already been in contact with the Greymouth Council however they could not find a Margaret Duncan that would fit the profile.
Again, my thanks minniehaha
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Here are the cemetery details for that Margaret; wrong one unfortunately, see headstone photograph............
https://e-search.westlanddc.govt.nz/cemeteries/result.php?v=24601
Minniehaha.
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I thought that I had found the right lady aged 77 buried at Mataura and purchased the BDM record but it turned out that her family name was Gillfillan. A bit like chasing Smiths!
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I have a feeling that East (?) Taieri cemetery records may be incomplete for some of the early years because they were destroyed, by fire? Maybe you could check with the Dunedin City Council to confirm this........
https://www.dunedin.govt.nz/facilities/cemeteries/cemeteries_search?sq_content_src=%2BdXJsPWh0dHAlM0ElMkYlMkZkY2NkYXRhLmR1bmVkaW4uZ292dC5ueiUyRlB1YmxpY1Byb2ZpbGVzJTJGUHVibGljUGFnZXMlMkZDRU1zcmNoLmRjYyZhbGw9MQ%3D%3D
Just a thought, do you have a copy of the 'Intention to Marry' document?
Minniehaha.
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Is this your family?
NZ BDM births
1859/8990 DUNCAN Alexander parents Margaret / Charles
1860/11781 DUNCAN Christina parents Margaret / Charles
1863/18919 DUNCAN James Grant parents Margaret / Charles
1862/15336 DUNCAN Alexander parents Margaret / Charles
1865/20671 DUNCAN William parents Margaret / Charles
1868/33802 DUNCAN Peter parents Margaret / Charles
1871/37858 DUNCAN Mary parents Margaret / Charles
1871/37861 DUNCAN Charles parents Margaret / Charles
1873/35412 DUNCAN Helen Grant parents Margaret / Charles
1875/673 DUNCAN Peter parents Margaret / Charles
1877/9270 DUNCAN Peter parents Margaret / Charles
BDM NZ deaths
1860/3835 DUNCAN Alexander 12M
1875/1057 DUNCAN Peter 7Y
1876/4671 DUNCAN Peter 10M
1944/16142 DUNCAN James Grant 80Y
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NZ BDM
marriage
1887/2938 Agnes CARRAN m. Alexander DUNCAN
births
1890/12553 DUNCAN Margaret Snoddon parents Margaret / William
1890/12554 DUNCAN Margaret Snoddon parents Agnes Catherine /Alexander
You need to see this record -
1877/9270 DUNCAN Peter parents Margaret / Charles
It will record age and birthplace for parents.
Can you please list all the information on the marriage document, 1858.
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Very scant information on the Marriage record:
1858, November 22nd at the Office of the Register of Dunedin
Charles Duncan
Margaret Snoddan
Ages 23
21
Bachelor
Spinster
Signature of Parties Charles Duncan and Margaret Snoddan
Name of Registrar: Robert Chapman, Registrar
When registered: 1858 Nov 22nd
The Signature of the registrar.
Witnesses John Curle, Dunedin, Tinplate worker
R.L. Jeffreys, Dunedin, Settler
There is also a certification written across the page that it is a true report for the Quarter ending 31 December 1858.
I will order the BDM for Peter Duncan :)
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Thank you Wivenhoe. There are a Charles Duncan and a William Duncan at Lime Hills in the NZ City & Area Directories 1892-1893. Could be two of the children? I will have a look for a William in the Southern Cemeteries as well.
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Interestingly Peter Duncan aged 62 at the Andersons Bay Dunedin Cemetery has the same styled headstone as William aged 86 in Invercargill. Just an oblong block with the word Duncan on it. The Alexander Duncan family are based in the Southland area as the mother Agnes Carran came from the Fortrose area. It appears that she moved back there when her husband died.
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"... Charles Duncan (Seaman and Bushman/Sawyer) "
Is this how Charles describes himself on the marriage record, 1858?
If you are adding this information, can you give the sources, and occasions (dates / places) where Charles is a seaman, and a bushman/sawyer.
Are you descended from one of the children of Charles and Margaret?
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Extended family. The person that provided the information could not be contacted today, I will try again tomorrow. The Marriage record just has Batchelor.
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You have given this information to a forum to work with -
"...The couple lived in the East and West Taieri areas..."
When / how do you see them......BDM records....electoral rolls.....newpaper articles....what?
"..Son Alexander moved to the West Coast where he passed away 1897"
Do you have this death document?
"...Son Peter lived in the Clinton, Otago area..."
When / how do you see him......BDM records....electoral rolls.....newpaper articles....what?
"... Charles and famly were buried at Tuatapere, Southland."
Can you please identify his death date, and his wife and children.
Bushman / sawyer are closely related occupations. Seaman is quite different, and opens up other possibilities for the life of Charles DUNCAN.
DUNCAN is a very ordinary family name in a country of Scottish immigrants.
Have you, personally, sourced any of this information that you have given?. If it is all from another researcher, you need to find out where this information comes from.
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I have personally checked/sourced the information. Our challenge is finding the burial place of Margaret Duncan. In 2006 15 Death Records for Margaret Duncan were checked. In 2019 a further 2 have been checked unsuccessfully.
They appear to be in Census records however with the scant information in Census records and the number of Charles and Margaret Duncan's it is only family lore that gives some indication of the trail.
Birthplace of the children: East Taeiri and West Taeiri
Electoral Roles 1887 Awarua, Charles Duncan, Clifton, Bushman (also a James Duncan)
1893 Invercargill, Charles Duncan Clarendon, Bushman, Margaret, Domestic
1894 Invercargill, Charles Duncan, Clarendon, Residential, Bushman
1905/1906 Grey, Charles Duncan, Coal Creek, Bushman Margaret Duncan Married
1908 Grey, Charles Duncan, Coal Creek, Bushman Margaret Duncan Married
1911 Motueka-Nelson Charles Duncan, Karamea, Bushman
1858 - Marriage Record held - Charles Duncan 23 Occpn Seaman
1912 - Death Record Charles Duncan (1955 Buller) Died 19th Sept 1912,
1897 Alexander, Coroners Report and Grave site
Thank you for your interest.
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1871/37861 DUNCAN Charles parents Margaret / Charles
NZ BDM
1898/4865 Charles DUNCAN marr. Ethel Cooper BULMAN
NZ BDM births
1899/12906 DUNCAN Fanny Margaret parents Ethel Cooper / Charles
1900/4323 DUNCAN Charles Alexander parents Ethel / Charles
1901/10502 DUNCAN Dora Ellen parents Ethel Cooper / Charles
1902/11929 DUNCAN Ethel Ina parents Ethel / Charles
1905/8699 DUNCAN Christina Daisy parents Ethel / Charles
1907/18508 DUNCAN Hilda Constance parents Ethel Cooper / Charles
1908/16886 DUNCAN Douglas Henry parents Ethel Cooper / Charles
1914/29345 DUNCAN Garnet Grant parents Ethel Cooper / Charles
NZ BDM death
1943/27327 DUNCAN Ethel Cooper 63Y
Possibly the family of William DUNCAN b. 1865.
BDM NZ
1888/3519 Margaret MONCRIEFF marr. William DUNCAN
BDM NZ births
1890/12553 DUNCAN Margaret Snoddon parents Margaret / William
1892/4717 DUNCAN Emily Stephens parents Margaret / William
1895/17046 DUNCAN William George Raymond parents Margaret Carston / William
1898/17224 DUNCAN Gilbert Alexander parents Margaret / William
1900/3585 DUNCAN Ellen Logan parents Margaret / William
1903/19764 DUNCAN Christina May parents Margaret / William
1908/4049 DUNCAN Charles Herbert Trever parents Margaret Carson / William
1911/20981 DUNCAN Leslie James parents Margaret Carson / William
BDM NZ marriages
1909/4213 Margaret Sneddon DUNCAN marr. Jonathan Thomas Stephen SMITH
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Hello June,
This may be something or absolutely nothing, and probably too far fetched, BUT I came across this death-
1916/2295 Sneddon** Margaret 78Y [The age ties in pretty well with what you have for Margaret Snoddan and I note a 'Sneddon' appears somewhere.]
Her actual date of death was: 6.5.1916.
Bear with me: The following from Papers Past:
Sudden death:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/LT19160508.2.88?query=keliher%20margaret&start_date=01-01-1916&end_date=31-12-1916&snippet=true&title=LT,OO,SUNCH,TEML,THD,TS,WDA,SCANT,NCGAZ,ASHH,AG,AMBPA,CHP,EG,GLOBE
Inquest:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP19160510.2.15?query=keliher%20margaret&start_date=01-01-1916&end_date=31-12-1916&snippet=true&title=LT,OO,SUNCH,TEML,THD,TS,WDA,SCANT,NCGAZ,ASHH,AG,AMBPA,CHP,EG,GLOBE
Death notice:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP19160508.2.2.3?query=patrick&start_date=01-05-1916&end_date=30-05-1916&snippet=true&title=CHP&type=ARTICLE
NOTE:Date of death was 6.5.1916.
Funeral notice:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP19160508.2.84.4?query=keliher%20margaret&start_date=01-01-1916&end_date=31-12-1916&snippet=true&title=LT,OO,SUNCH,TEML,THD,TS,WDA,SCANT,NCGAZ,ASHH,AG,AMBPA,CHP,EG,GLOBE
Patrick?
1903/6111 Keliher Patrick 77Y
**I have not been able to find the death registration for one Margaret Keliher/Kelliher in 1916. So could this be 'your' Margaret?
Talk about thinking outside the square! but I thought I would just throw this into the mix. To be shot down in flames, or otherwise...... ;D
Minniehaha.
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Definitely worth looking at. I will try and find her burial site and search her on Ancestry Trees.
Regards, June
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Inquest:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP19160510.2.15?
Inquest report can be seen here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSK1-CQSM-5?i=341&cat=544929
In the NZ indexes there is a death of a Margaret Kelcher, age 78, died 6.5.1916.
So could that be Margaret Keliher?
Death in 1927 of William Keliher of Ohoka Road, Kaiapoi. Age 75.
That age doesn't make sense to me if he is son of Margaret.
Notice above is a Kelcher!
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP19271003.2.5
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The 8 May 1916 death notice of Margaret Sneddon (Lyttelton Times, The Press) says
SNEDDON.—On May 6, at her son's residence, 467, Papanui Road, Margaret Sneddon; in her seventy-ninth year. Late of Wellington.
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Mmm ... I believe this KELIHER family who resided at Kaiapoi, came to New Zealand (arrived at Auckland - January 1875) aboard the "Dilharee". They hailed from Co. Kerry, Ireland.
Per "Dilharee"
KELIHER - Patrick - 40 / Margaret - 36 = born circa 1838 / William - 22 = bc 1852 / Edward - 20 / Mary - 16 / Patrick - 13 / B??? aged 9 / Margaret - 6 and Daniel aged 2 :
[At various times William, Edward, Mary and Daniel KELIHER are at the Ohoka Road address along with Patrick and Margaret. ]
The ages of this ^ Margaret KELIHER and her son William who died in 1927, are very good matches with the ages in the coroner's report and death notices. [But this Margaret can, I'm sure, be eliminated. ]
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP19271003.2.5
-- 1927 Death notice for William KELIHER - s/o late Margaret and Patrick ... aged 75 years (bc 1852).
~ Lu
Ooops ... sorry John ... looks like I repeated your info re: William KELIHER's death.
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Found this earlier >
NZ Death Index (at ancestry.com)
Year : 1916
KELIHER - Margaret
Death : 2 quarter - Registered at Kaiapoi
* Folio No. 1504
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YEAR : 1916
SNEDDON - Margaret
Death : 2nd quarter - Death Registered at Christchurch.
* Folio No. 1458
[Note: * These folio numbers were used before the NZ BDM indexes became available for viewing online and bear no relation to the registration numbers now in use. ]
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It does seem the that the NZ Death Index online has a spelling error for the registration of Margaret KELIHER [shown as "KELCHER" ]. ;D
June ... there is another "Margaret" eliminated. ;)
~ Lu
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Thank you Lu. I have been to BDM and ordered what appears to be young Charles's death certificate to see if perhaps she remarried. The other option may be that we have been looking for an elderly woman whereas she may have passed earlier. I will revisit the list of deaths.
:)
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Charles Duncan Jnr, buried at Tuatapere Southland has his mother on the Death Certificate detailed as Margaret Sneddon and father as Charles Duncan. I am now looking at William and think that he is also in Southland.
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Hi June,
"I have been unable so far to find their shipping passenger entry into NZ."
If you request a look up for the 'Intention to Marry' document, you may get some indication as to when the couple arrived. Although the document only states how the long the couple had resided in the area where they intended to marry.
For information see here....
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714246.0
Minniehaha.
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Thank you for the suggestion Minniehaha. I will update in case any other family member is watching.
I had a friend call at Archives in Wgtn, both Margaret and Charles had been in the district for 7months on their Intention to Marry. A very kind lady called Trish has also provided me with a printout of Charles Duncan's cemetery details from Westport in 1912 which backs up the Death Printout. He had three sons, 46,44,42 and two daughters 40,38. I have yet to find the girls names. Charles Duncan's father was John Duncan, Master Mariner. Wife was detailed as Margaret Snadon. Also seems to confirm the NZ Papers Past article on Charles Duncan's death.
Obtained the Death Printout for son William in Invercargill 1951. His mother was detailed as Margaret Sneddon. Fathers Occpn, Gold Miner. Visited the local Family History group premises and spent some time looking at microfiche records to find if there was any likelihood of the Duncan death at Ahaura, West Coast being Margaret. The details are year 1897 Folio 2055 on Ancestry however NZBDM cannot find this entry. It is detailed on the fiche as Duncan then a space where the Christian name would be then (M). Not sure if this denotes Male? The Grey DC advise that the cemetery database is lost due to fire/floods and they only have the data from the headstones. Thought it was worth a look as some of the family had been at Coal Creek on the Coast.
It appears that son Charles Jnr was a twin of Mary as they share the same registration number on the old NZBDM microfiche. There is also a death of Mary that could have been her as an infant.
Have pulled lots of data from various sources on the Sons children... Still working on the puzzle of where Margaret was buried :)
Teasing isn't it. Thank you again, June
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Job done! Thank you all. I am now in possession of the Death Printout for Margaret Duncan. Details:
Place. Darnum, Victoria Australia. Buried at Warragul, been in Victoria 6 months, probably for son James Grant Duncans wedding in July. Date of death 5 November 1889 at Darnum County of Bula Bula Shire of Warragul, Victoria. Female, 51 years, Bronchitis and Heart disease. Father and Mother: Fathers surname Snawdon (christian name not known) Mothers name Christina Snawdon maiden name of mother not known. Occupation not known. Informant Charles Duncan, husband. Burial registered 7 November 1889 at Warragul Cemetery. Witnesses of Burial W Davies, John Goullet and Rev Willcox Church of England minister. Where born and how long in Australia, Clackmannanshire, Scotland 31 years in New Zealand and 6 months in Victoria. Where married, at Dunedin, Otago aged 21 to Charles Duncan. Children in order of birth: Alexander deceased, Christina deceased, Alexander 29, James Grant 25, William 23, Peter deceased, Charles 19?, Ellen Grant 17, Christina 16, Peter deceased, Peter 11. Bushfires have destroyed the Cemetery records.
Along the way I have spoken and corresponded with other Duncan descendants of the children above. Any Duncan enquiries please do feel free to contact me. ;)
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Further note. I thought that I had found a Mary 1871 that fitted into the family as well however she is not detailed on the Death record. Possibly overlooked? Given that Charles Jnr dob appears to be 4/11/1871 it may not be.
Transcription of Death Registrations 1959-1884
Mary Duncan Died 22 Feb 1871 at West Taieri aged 3 days, daughter of Charles Duncan. Informant her father, a labourer of West Taieri. Register number 81