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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: estiman on Wednesday 27 February 19 22:17 GMT (UK)
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Hope you can help. Here's the background: the attached is part of a letter sent by a soldier in the 2nd Battalion Scots Fusilier Guards to his brother in the US. The date, I believe is 1869 (but perhaps 1867). My particular interest is the reference to the parents. I had surmised that the father - John Allen - had died before 1841 - the last child was baptised 1837. I have no trace of him in any census. His wife - Sarah Allen -appears alone with her children in 1841 and 1851 (born c 1801 in Watford Herts according to 1851 census) where she says that she is married. The marriage certificate of my ancestor says his father was a soldier, which may explain why he was absent (but baptism records seem to have him as a labourer). Back to the letter, which makes clear reference to father and mother in good health. I have done a transcription of this section of the letter but there are a few points that are unclear. There are obvious spelling mistakes, he is liberal with his use of capitals and there is no punctuation. I have underlined the problem words
your Farther (&??) mother says that she hopes that you will take care of your great Boy as she as (has?) of you in Brin(ging?) you upp your mother noes (knows?) wot (what?) Endr………?? is for she is brin(ging?) her child upp on it that is the Parrot (??) a board(??) your Farther and mother is very well at Present thank God for it
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Hi...can't help with the letter. But wondered if you are trying to find the father in any military records? If so....can you post his children's names and when and where born?
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Yes well...
the intimation .. I am getting is someone is saying .. that the Mother and Father are doing a good job of bringing ??? some one up and that the person they are writing to should follow the same lead... basically?
but the Parrot? well that could be 'copy' / Endear ....... I thought at first was education.. but no...?
so It could be some kind of old fashioned remedial medicine.... there is a word there that is similar to an old medication..
Sorry useless response.. ignore ??? ??? ???
xin
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Hi xinia, comments/ input are never useless if well intentioned. Yes mother is saying that she brought up her children well and her son should do the same.
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Hi Gortonboy, this branch of my family has been fraught with problems, some of which I allude to. Nevertheless, I am fairly sure I have the family unit, as listed in the 1841 census (without the father, John) but tracing back their births/baptisms has been problematic, compounded by the names, which are common. The first born is William, 1824 Middlesex (according to 1841 census) - no baptism found & no trace found after 1841. John, 1826, St Margarets Westminster. Benjamin, 1828 St Margarets Westminster. Thomas Charles, 1834 St Margaret Westminster. George Henry 1836, St Margaret Westminster. The latter 2 were baptised together and their father's profession was given as 'weaver', while their brother's baptisms showed their father as 'labourer'. Also in the subsequent censuses Thomas gave his birthplace as 'Paddington'. On his marriage certificate his father's profession is shown as 'soldier'. His 2 brothers, John (author of the letter) and George, became drummers in the 2nd Scots Fusiliers Guards battalion. According to the letter a third, unamed, brother (William?) entered the navy. Thomas was a 'sawyer', unemployed (says letter) then barman and carman. Benjamin emigrated to Canada and then the US. He was a carpenter.
As for their father, John, there is no trace after the birth of George in 1836 until the reference in his son's letter, which says he is well. I had previously thought he must have died, although Sarah, his wife says she is still married in the 1851 census, when she is alone with Thomas. The only hint that John may have been a soldier (and therefore explaining his absences???) comes from Thomas' marriage certificate. I have also been unable to trace Sarah after 1851. Incidentally, the letter states that the mother's address is the same as in 1851. I don't know of a way to do a street search in, say, 1871.
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As far as i can read this awful grammar it goes something like this
Your Father and Mother says that she hopes that you will take care of your great boy as she has you.
In Bless your ----- your Mother noes wot (endiacain) is for she is been his Chield upon it that is the (passot a -------)
Your father and mother is very well at present thank god for it your brother tomas
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Sorry...but where exactly are the family in 1841..... struggling to find them ? Edit.......it's ok. Found them. hi
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I think you're right with the contraction 'Brinn' he uses for 'bringing' estiman.
So we have this:
Your Farther & Mother Says She hopes that
you will take Care of your great Boy as She
as of you in Brin(gi)n(g) you Upp Your Mother
noes wot Endian Corn is for She is brin(gi)n(g) hir
Chield Upp on it that is the Parrot a buard
Your Farther and Mother is Verry Well at
Present thank God for it Your Brother tomas
I think it has to be 'Parrot'
They are definitely 'r's in the middle - see 'r' in 'bringing' and 'care', and many other words.
The capital 'P' is slightly different to the 'P' in 'Present', but I can't see what other capital letter it could be.
As you say, perhaps there was a saying 'the parrot on board', meaning to do likewise to somebody else.
Definitely 'hir' at the end of line 4.
Endian corn = Indian corn = maize.
'noes wot' = knows what
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Indian corn ... phew .... that has to be it .... afterall there's ummm .... well ... ummm .... flatulence as a by product ... ::)
Well sorted Goldie ...
JM
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Good lateral thinking Goldie61. Reference to Indian corn makes sense as the letter is addressed to the brother in America. This is a fascinating insight into the diet of working class Londoners in the 1830'/1840's if what the mother says is true. I wonder when maize started to be available?
I'll look further into the expression "parrot aboard" (so far only found "sick as a parrot").... unless this is some attempt at humour? ???
Do you agree that the date appears to be 1869?
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Is it possibly from
Long John Silver!?!? Treasure Island
xin
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So 19th century humour?? However, given the level of literacy shown, I'm not sure they would be into RL Stevenson?
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Yes get that they would not have read the books ---- but the use/ generality of a well known phrase -- is something we often do not know the source of??
xin
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I read it as if the Mother is bringing her "Child" up the same...but her child is a Parrot..a bird... ;D
Carol
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Do you agree that the date appears to be 1869?
A bit difficult to say for sure with the crease (or whatever) in the paper there, but most probably 1869, yes.
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There now seem to be major issues about the date (1869) & time-frame of the letter. There are references to the wife and recently born son of the brother. Yet I have now found out that the wife died in 1860 and the son was born 1851. I had posted a methodological question about "Trying to look up an address" in The Common Room, relating to the mother and father in the letter. In my most recent 'reply' there I cover the above in more detail.
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Now that you say it...
There is a definite straight, horizontal stroke which starts at the top of the vertical stroke and goes right.
It could well be a "5", with the vertical stroke a little long.
So: 1851.
Just my 2 penn'th. ;D
Best regards,
Karen
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"Is the parrot aboard!" is a question only answerable by a member of that family. Did they own one or possibly referring to a family member. "Pieces of Eight!" ;D
Skoosh.
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He may seemingly be illiterate... but his handwriting is very good.
I know that 'Parrots' are Copy-cats!? maybe it has something to do with that..
1851
xin