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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: olives on Friday 01 March 19 18:24 GMT (UK)
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Hi. I haven't been on this site for years and am hoping someone can help in the Glasgow area.
The only information I have is regarding a Frances Dorothy Kemp born in Glasgow in 1917. Apparently she went on to be adopted (I'm guessing as a baby). She eventually moved to Davenport (I think) and eventually married a Percy Jenkin (date unknown).
That is the only information I have unfortunately. There are no adoption papers, birth certificate, no nothing. She never talked about her history to anyone.
Can anyone please help me....?
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Where is Davenport? I know one in Florida but have not very knowledgeable of any elsewhere.
Is Frances Dorothy Kemp her “adoptive” name?
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Frances D Kemp is on the 1939 register living in Plymouth Devon UK and is a domestic servant. She isn't married at this point but the surname Jenkin has been added so indicates a marriage from 1939 on.
The marriage was Sept 1/4 1940 to Charles F P Jenkin On FreeBMD
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You beat me to it Crisane ;D
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Marriage 2 July 1940, to Charles Frederick Percival Jenkin at St Marks, Ford, Davenport
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She died mar qtr 1987 Bromley Kent, the dob confirms the date on the 1939 register
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Jc26red: Davenport is in Devon
Yes, Frances Dorothy Kemp is the only name we have for her. Like I say, there is no evidence of any adoption papers, birth certificate - or of anything at all actually.
Thanks all for the marriage details. That sounds the right timing.
I don’t expect there’s any mention of exactly where she was a domestic servant?
It would be the icing on the cake if we could find any record of her adoption papers....
Thanks again to you all. Hope more info comes to
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Jc2red: her death at Bromley sounds spot on, as that was the last address we knew of .
We’d be chuffed to bits if anyone can find any of her adoption records and whether she had any siblings......
Thanks so much
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Hi. This has been posted on "Off-Topic" board which is for non FH subjects. When I'm trying to find again a FH thread I've previously read I ignore Off-Topic boards.
Would it be an idea to move it? Ask a moderator?
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Post deleted
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Thanks Maiden Stone. I’m pretty new to this after having not been on for many years, so didn’t really know what to do.
Moderators can you advise, please
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I have already moved the post to Scotland for you.
Regards
Sarah
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Thanks, Sarah
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If anyone can help in searching for Frances’s adoption records it would be much appreciated.Or whether she had any siblings.
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Sadly her birth is before formal adoption therefore unlikely any papers exist. She could have been taken in by a family member or friend of the family or arranged by the Church.
Her marriage cert may show if she gave a name for her father, the marriage entry I gave was just a PR transcript and it didn’t mention any other details.
The only other alternative would be wait until 1921 census to see who she was living with at the time.
Are there any decendants who would be willing to undertake a dna test?
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please remember that we do not research folk that could be living. ;)
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I did basic searches on ScotlandsPeople for a Frances Dorothy Kemp, just using the surname/ just using Frances Dorothy/ Frances in Glasgow/Lanark/anywhere but no result of any significance. Of course she may have been told she was born Scotland but wasn't. As has been said, if she was 'adopted' prior to 1927 it would have been an informal arrangement so no paperwork will exist. Even later if a family member or friend took her in it it may nor have gone through legal channels. She could also have been illegitimate.
Getting the marriage certificate may give some helpful information, if she told the truth. It may be that if she named her father/adoptive father and his occupation he could be identified on the 1939 register.
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Jc2red: thanks so much for that. I guess a marriage certificate would be the only chance. Will pass that info on. But would the 1911 census not show anything - unless Scottish laws are different?
Sarah: there’s no one still alive that this research would affect. They’ve all long gone😞
Crisane: just seen your reply. A lot to ponder on. Thanks
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Thanks Olives for the confirmation :)
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Death of her husband
Charles Frederick P Jenkin
Age at death 81
Birth date 8 Jul 1917
Registered Sept 1998
Registration district - Bromley, Greater London
Register number B35
District and Subdistrict - 2221B
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Devonport rather than Davenport, surely?
Imber
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would the 1911 census not show anything - unless Scottish laws are different?
I thought she was born 1917 (from your original post) i.e. 1911 won't help unless she names father on her marriage?
Annie
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Good point, Annie. Duh😏
Reckon the marriage certificate is the first step.....cheers
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One of the trees on Ancestry has the tree owner as her daughter, clearly still living
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Jc2red. There are two immediate family members still living, but I am helping one of them as she doesn’t know much about FH and the other sibling lives overseas. They now say that frances Dorothy Kemp was born on 2/7/17 and her adoptive father’s name was Charles Kemp. If only we could find her birth mother’s name.....😞
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There's only 1 birth for 'a' Dorothy Frances in Scotland 1917;
LAING DOROTHY FRANCES 1917
431/ 16 Forgan (Fife)
It may be worth looking in England for a Kemp/Laing marriage as there's nothing showing Scotland 1917 - 1947
It may also be Dorothy has the wrong year for her birth which has happened?
Annie
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15 Births of 'a' Frances Dorothy 1915 - 1919
No marriages with 'a' Charles Kemp to any of those surnames (in Scotland) 1917 - 1947
Annie
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Ok, thanks Annie. Will have to see if the family come up with anything else. They seem to be certain she was born in Glasgow and moved to davenport in Devon we know not when.
Is anyone able to tell me who owns the family tree on Ancestry? or is that breaching Data Protection? But I’ve got a feeling it might be a relative called sue.
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Tree centres upon the 3rd child of the couple, initials SAJ, born 1955?
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You are correct Olives
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Now the following 1901 census is just a thought and might need exploring
7Forge Street, Glasgow
Charles Kemp 31
Mary Kemp 29
Henrietta Kemp 8
Peter Kemp 6
Mary Kemp 4
Charles Kemp 8 Months
Elizabeth Shannon 52 visitor
Note he has 2 possible daughters who could have given birth in 1917 or even a girlfriend of the son, might be worth checking if the son died in WW1... it would be be a logical answer.
I don’t have any Scotlandspeople credits to check the family in 1911
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The Charles Kemp mentioned in the last post, emigrated to Canada in 1920, one of his daughters, Henrietta, was already there.
There is also a later boarder crossing in 1931. Between USA and Canada. He lists a mrs Henrietta Ewing on the boarder crossing card
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I think it would be good if the person you are helping ordered the marriage cert for Frances Dorothy's marriage in 1940. In these types of searches, you need every bit of help you can get! Confirming what she reported for her father's details on the registration may help.
You mention that that Charles Kemp is possibly seen to be the person that took care of Frances Dorothy in her early years?
From jc26red's details on the Kemp family in the Glasgow area, this I think is them from the 1911 index, all under the ref of 644/5 16/ 17 - Garngadhill, Lanark.
Charles 40
Mary 38
Peter 16
Mary 14
Eliza 8
Charlotte 7
Catherine 4
Peter 69
John 32
Monica
Added: Baby Charles who showed in 1901 died that same year.
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The Peter Snr and John who show on the index likely Charles' father and brother. From 1891:
Peter Kemp 49 carter b Edinburgh
Hannah Kemp 47 b. Glasgow
Charles Kemp 22 carter b. Glasgow
Walter Kemp 20 carter b. Glasgow
John Kemp 11 b. Glasgow
Address: 274 Garngadhill, Dennistoun Glasgow
Monica
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MonicaL: thanks very much. The daughter I am helping thinks her sister in Australia might have the marriage certificate of their mother. If not, I’ll urge them to get one!
JC2Red and Ray. Thanks for all the info. So much to digest. If only they’d had adoption papers/records in those days.....Frances Dorothy Kemp’s mother could have been anyone....
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JC2Red and Ray. Thanks for all the info. So much to digest. If only they’d had adoption papers/records in those days.....Frances Dorothy Kemp’s mother could have been anyone....
Which is why I would suggest a dna test, a family finder kind not ydna. The Charles Kemp mentioned in Glasgow is in another tree on Ancestry, again another direct descendant is the tree owner.... it is possible to request (pay) for them to also take a test to see if there is a family connection.
But first, make sure you see the marriage cert and the details concerning Frances’s father.
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Thanks Jc26red. Just spoken to the daughter again and apparently her sister was told by the archives place in Glasgow, that in 1917, as there was poor tenements in Glasgow in those days, a lot of children were just taken in by other families - or even sold😳
We should soon have more info if they can find the marriage certificate, or they’ll obtain one if not. I’ll suggest a dna to them.
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2 births Glasgow area for 'a' Frances Dorothy 1914 - 1920 but both can be discounted :(
HERBERTSON DOROTHY FRANCES 1915
644/12 112 Hillhead (married 1943 in Scotland)
MATTHEWS DOROTHY FRANCES 1915
644/9 667 Milton
(no marriage found but looks to have died Edinburgh 1993 although age out a tad)
Annie
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Note he has 2 possible daughters who could have given birth in 1917 or even a girlfriend of the son, might be worth checking if the son died in WW1...
There's only 1 birth for 'a' Dorothy Frances in Scotland 1917;
LAING DOROTHY FRANCES 1917
431/ 16 Forgan (Fife)
No Frances Dorothy but the above can be discounted as she died 1981 Aberdeen.
15 Births of 'a' Frances Dorothy 1915 - 1919
None with surname Kemp
Annie
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Yeah, don’t think they’re any connection. Thanks Annie😃
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We now have the marriage certificate.
When the marriage took place on 2/7/1940 between Frances Dorothy Kemp and Charles Frederick Percival Jenkin - in Devenport - it’s listed as frances’s Dad (Charles Kemp) being a labourer at H.M.D Plymouth. . *** Her residence was 94 Warleigh Avenue. Spinster. No rank or profession given for her (although in 1939 it was said that she was a domestic servant).
The witnesses were a Arthur R Jenkin and a Caroline Edith Jerkin
*** it has been said that her father (Charles Kemp) emigrated to Canada in 1920 and then on to USA. Don’t know when he returned to the uk.
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"it’s listed as frances’s Dad (Charles Kemp) being a labourer at H.M.D Plymouth"
In case you don't know that's Her Majesty's Dockyard, Plymouth (i.e. Devonport).
Imber
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*** it has been said that her father (Charles Kemp) emigrated to Canada in 1920 and then on to USA. Don’t know when he returned to the uk......
is this information from your friend or my previous post
The Charles Kemp mentioned in the last post, emigrated to Canada in 1920, one of his daughters, Henrietta, was already there.
There is also a later boarder crossing in 1931. Between USA and Canada. He lists a mrs Henrietta Ewing on the boarder crossing card
If Frances stated her father worked at HMD Devonport in 1940, then he must have returned previous to this and likely to be on the 1939 register.
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Would the Charles Kemp we have been discussing in Glasgow be working as a labourer at H.M.D Plymouth at the age of nearly 72 in 1940 :-\
Monica
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Monica: unless that was the last known profession of Charles Kemp maybe?
I’m struggling to think of a reason why they chose to move to Devon from Glasgow - and when? Perhaps someone in the family was pregnant & they wanted to start afresh where no one would know......
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From jc26red's details on the Kemp family in the Glasgow area, this I think is them from the 1911 index, all under the ref of 644/5 16/ 17 - Garngadhill, Lanark.
Charles 40
Mary 38
Peter 16
Mary 14
Eliza 8
Charlotte 7
Catherine 4
Peter 69
John 32
Monica
Added: Baby Charles who showed in 1901 died that same year.
I know it's Frances Dorothy who is your target but reading your last post...
Monica: unless that was the last known profession of Charles Kemp maybe?
I’m struggling to think of a reason why they chose to move to Devon from Glasgow - and when?
It would be an idea to look at the original 1911 census & some of the marriages of the children of Charles Kemp to find out what his/their occupations were as this may help with the answer to the move so far south?
Sometimes we need to expand our search outwith one person in particular as events in between can differ.
I'm sure people wondered why I posted births for Frances Dorothy & Dorothy Frances i.e. I will explain...it has been known for people with forename & middle name to change them round or someone else change them round for whatever reasons.
It's a great tool on SP when you type in names such as 'Frances Dorothy' it automatically brings up all with both names.
Annie
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Thanks, Anne. That's useful to know. That was to be my next step researching Charles' other children for "clues".
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From connected thread...
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=809584.msg6693173
I’ve never meant to duplicate anything on here or cause unnecessary research for anyone. As I say, I’m just finding my way round the site. And as the family aren’t able to produce any conclusive evidence of a Scottish link then I thought it might be easier to take a new approach and look at Plymouth, for which we do have written evidence.
Do you know of any blood or step siblings for Frances by forename which may give a lead on finding birth certs. with a mother's name or do you have a mother's name to look for a marriage for Charles?
Annie
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Sadly, no to both, Annie. It would have made things a lot more easier if we had that info! Frances always told her daughters she’d been adopted (absolutely no record) but I guess we can’t guarantee this is correct.
That’s why I started a new search in Plymouth, as we know for sure Frances’ dad worked there, so we thought if we pursued that aspect then it could help us confirm whether we’ve actually got the right Charles Kemp as listed earlier in the replies I got.
Someone said earlier that 94 Warleigh Avenue, Plymouth, was the Jenkin household (frances’ Husband to be). However, the limited access I have to the 1939 register indicates it’s a Mr & Mrs Mason and Frances we know was a domestic servant for them.
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"When the marriage took place on 2/7/1940 between Frances Dorothy Kemp and Charles Frederick Percival Jenkin - in Devenport - it’s listed as frances’s Dad (Charles Kemp) being a labourer at H.M.D Plymouth"
If Charles is the one found in the census' in Scotland it would seem the move to Devon was because someone was probably in the Navy or connected somehow?
Have you found a death for Charles Kemp to find out who the informant was?
Annie
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Is it possible Frances could have been born in Port Glasgow rather than Glasgow?
Port Glasgow is close to Greenock in Renfrew known for shipping/ship building.
There's this birth although the date is out from what you have;
PETTICREW FRANCES DOROTHY 1919
564/1 293 Greenock East
I haven't time at the moment to check for a marriage/death in Scotland but maybe someone else could check?
Have you got a birth date for Frances as there have been a few with different/wrong dates on 1939 register to what they have?
Annie
Edit...No marriage or death (which would fit) found for a Frances/Frances D Petticrew/Pettigrew
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I guess she could have been born anywhere in that area, Annie. It’s so difficult without any information to go on.
I’ve just been trawling through the deaths for Charles, but have to go out soon. Think I’ll also look more into the Dockyard records and see if I can find out any dates there, at least that would help in determining whether he had any middle name/dates, etc.
Not for,the faint hearted, eh??😉
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Such a pity there's no names for siblings to go on.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=charles+kemp
They can be narrowed down by dates.
Annie
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Thanks, Annie. Think we've come to a brick wall without any definitive info for Frances Dorothy, although her two remaining daughters seem to be sure of her birthday as 02/07/1917, but they don't have any certificate to prove this, so I don't know what to think.
I've found a possible death for a Charles Kemp in Plymouth in 1958 (age 81). Vol 7A; P 583, L 99. Does anyone please have any access anywhere to view the informant's name or any other details on his death record?
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Someone said earlier that 94 Warleigh Avenue, Plymouth, was the Jenkin household (frances’ Husband to be). However, the limited access I have to the 1939 register indicates it’s a Mr & Mrs Mason and Frances we know was a domestic servant for them.
You seem to have misread what Crisane posted...
Reply #2
"Frances D Kemp is on the 1939 register living in Plymouth Devon UK and is a domestic servant. She isn't married at this point but the surname Jenkin has been added so indicates a marriage from 1939 on"
The additon of the surname Jenkin being added would have been done after the marriage when updating the 1939 register to indicate she'd married & what her married surname was.
Is this where the family found Frances' DoB as 02/07/1917 or is it the date/month which was always celebrated although no confirmation for birth year?
Have you considered searching newspapers with surname & area for any possible clues?
Annie
Add...Have you found Charles in 1939 for clues?
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Now the following 1901 census is just a thought and might need exploring
7Forge Street, Glasgow
Charles Kemp 31
Mary Kemp 29
Henrietta Kemp 8
Peter Kemp 6
Mary Kemp 4
Charles Kemp 8 Months
Elizabeth Shannon 52 visitor
A search on SP for a marriage/death for Henrietta has nothing which would fit.
Annie
Edit...I will recheck for a death as I see she has a middle name!
KEMP HENRIETTA MURRA 1892
644/3 1014 Dennistoun
No death found.
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Thought this may be of interest...
1901 - 29 Chichester Rd, Portsmouth, Southampton
Charles R W Kemp 28 (c1873) Steam Engine Motor Fitter, b Chatham, Kent ***
Jane S Kemp 27 Wife
Charles G Kemp 4 Son
John E Kemp 1 Son
Peter D Murray 24 M Visitor, Insurance Agent, b Peterhead, Scotland
Winifred Murray 24 M Visitor, b Chatham, Kent
Jennie Murray 1 Visitor, b ? (couldn't read it), Portsmouth
ED 20 Piece 981 Folio 24 Pg 3 Sch16
1911 - (unsure of what details I'm allowed to post)
Charles 38 M Engine Fitter
Susan 37 M (using her middle name)
Charles 14
John 11
Alfred 8
Jean Murray (now Niece)
William Poarch 31 M Visitor
Nellie 31 Poarch 31 M Visitor
Couldn't help but notice the coincidence, the birth for Henrietta Murray Kemp 1892 (posted earlier) i.e. although not the same family there may be a connection, stranger things have happened...
The Charles Kemp mentioned in the last post, emigrated to Canada in 1920, one of his daughters, Henrietta, was already there.
Marriage
Charles Richard William Kemp 21 (c1873)
30 Jun 1894 St Margaret, Plumstead, Greenwich, England
Father Richard William Kemp
Spouse Jane Susannah Barker
Parish Register
*** UK, Shipping and Seamen WWI and WWII Rolls of Honour, 1914-1945 for Charles Richard William Kemp
BT 339:6 Mercantile Marine Officers; Nominal lists; copies of ´London Gazette´ (1916 - 1920)
30 Mar 1920 - Charles Richard William Kemp, Inspector of Engine Fitters, H M Dockyard, Portsmouth
1939
Charpeman Engine Fitter H M Dockyard Poste (RETD) (Chargeman)
Death
Charles R W Kemp 88 (c1873)
Reg Mar 1961 RD Portsmouth, County Hampshire Vol 6b Pg 567
Probate
Charles Richard William Kemp (MBE)
21 Drayton Road, North End, Portsmouth died 16 Mar 1961 Probate London 21 Apr
to John Edwin Kemp retired Chargeman of Fitters. Effects £1486 12s. 9d.
Annie
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Hi all,
Been following this thread with interest.
I believe the Charles Kemp in Glasgow 1901/1911 is living in Calgary, Alberta at the time of 1926 Census.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QP24-3N23
This ties in with the Henrietta Ewing mentioned earlier by jc26red
There is also a later boarder crossing in 1931. Between USA and Canada. He lists a mrs Henrietta Ewing on the boarder crossing card
She looks also to be in Calgary in 1926
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPK7-HCHD
I think Annie's find of Charles Kemp born Chatham Kent looks to be a better fit as the adoptive father of Frances Dorothy.
Looking at Peter D Murray of Peterhead (whose daughter Charles and family have living with them in 1911) - I found a death and an entry on the Register of Corrected Entries on Scotlands People. Very sad :'(
27th December 1914 at Stevenston, Ayrshire.
Peter Davidson Murray aged 37 Dynamite worker married to Winifred Kemp
Found dead on the Glasgow and South West Railway near Auchenharvie Cabin , Parish of Stevenson
Cause of death - Injuries to the head caused by being stuck by the engine of a passing train.
Informant - widow Winifred Murray
Usual address - 48 Windmill Street , Saltcoats.
I wonder what became of Winifred after this? Just thinking of potential mother to another child 3 years later? She would be 40... not impossible. Another avenue to consider?
Looby :)
PS. Incidentally the death above is registered in the year 1915.
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Had another look on SP (but no credits left to view, unfortunately)
There is a death for a Winifred E M Kemp , also registered as Winifred E M Murray in 1968 at Culross in Fife. The lady is recorded as 92 years old - so year of birth circa 1876.
I can't find any marriages between a Winifred Kemp or Murray to a Mr Murray or Kemp in Scotland.
I think this is the Murray family in 1911 at Devonport - intriguingly this transcript uses the term -
"Alias - DAVIDSON" - I've never seen that before ???
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW9J-SGR
Of course , all this could be barking up the wrong tree !
Looby :)
Added - Winifred Emma M Kemp married Peter Davidson Murray - Sept 1899 in Plymouth - with the middle initials this must be the lady who dies in Culross, Fife
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl?start=1899&end=1899&sq=3&eq=3&type=Marriages&vol=5b&pgno=539&db=bmd_1549919476&jsexec=1&mono=0&v=MTU1MjIxNjQwNDo2MWYyZmU2ZmU3OGZjZDFkNjQ4N2ZhMDdjMDEzMDczNGEyNzdkODM0&searchdef=s_surname%3Dmurray%26surname%3Dkemp%26db%3Dbmd_1549919476%26sq%3D1%26eq%3D4%26type%3DMarriages&action=Find
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Been following this thread with interest.
27th December 1914 at Stevenston, Ayrshire.
Peter Davidson Murray aged 37 Dynamite worker married to Winifred Kemp
Found dead on the Glasgow and South West Railway near Auchenharvie Cabin , Parish of Stevenson
Cause of death - Injuries to the head caused by being stuck by the engine of a passing train.
Informant - widow Winifred Murray
Usual address - 48 Windmill Street , Saltcoats.
I wonder what became of Winifred after this? Just thinking of potential mother to another child 3 years later? She would be 40... not impossible. Another avenue to consider?
Looby :)
PS. Incidentally the death above is registered in the year 1915.
Looby, it is interesting isn't it, the kind of enigmas we love ;D
I had seen this earlier after noticing the 'Murray' coincidence but :-\
MURRAY FRANCES 1917
611/2 12 Hurlford (Ayr)
Annie
Add...I couldn't resist looking but unfortunately not our Frances :(
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Looby, it is interesting isn't it, the kind of enigmas we love ;D
Annie
For sure , Annie ;D
I just thought the Scottish link - Peter Murray and Winifred Murray nee. Kemp - could be important.
It ties someone from Charles Kemp's extended family with Scotland.
I looked at Murray births in 1917 too and saw that Ayrshire birth.
Of course, their might be no connection between Frances Dorothy Kemp and the Murrays :-X :P
But we'll keep digging !
Olives - the 1921 Census (when it's released a few years from now) might help solve your quest.
Looby :)
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Its one thing having lateral thinking but sometimes it can go into overload ???
I wondered (if there is a connection) with the Glasgow Charles & family whether Henrietta Murray Kemp could be the mother being as she's in Canada by 1920 & single (is she)?
There's a marriage;
KEMP CHARLES & RENNOCK MARY RAE 1891 652/2 165 Coatbridge or Old Monkland
Mary appears to die in Aberdeen (from memory) as Kemp/Rennie?
This could be the Charles & Mary for the Scottish census' posted i.e. the parents of the children listed 1901 & 1911 with Henrietta but she was away in 1911, no death but I found a 'possible' matching her age (if she's the one in Canada later)?;
KEMP HARRIET 1911 17 028/4/3 Shapinsay Orkney
Orkney would be accessible from Aberdeen
I believe Frances was born to a family member but whether Francis was her birth name is ?
However...
Son of the above Charles R W Kemp?
Rosyth, Fife, Scotland, Dockyard Employee Books, 1892-1967
George Charles Kemp (names switched round? & a point from earlier)
Birth 17 Apr 1896 Devonport
Employment End Date 21 Nov 1916 Rosyth, Fife, Scotland
His occ. is H S SKS Labourer (it's difficult to make out)
Marriage
Minnie M Davey
Mar Q 1932 Portsmouth, Hampshire
Spouse Charles G Kemp
Vol 2b Pg 1014
Charles G Kemp (Married)
Birth 17 Apr 1896
Residence 1939 Portsmouth, Hampshire
Occ. Painter (Assistant)
Spouse Minnie M Kemp
Probate
Charles George Kemp
Death Date 26 Dec 1976
Death Place 9 Darlington Road, Southsea, Portsmouth
Probate Date 29 Mar 1977
Probate Registry Winchester
£8809
No names given
This is the son of the English Charles, was in Scotland close to 1917 i.e. could he be a candidate as the 'true' father as he didn't marry until 1932?
Annie
Add...Hopefully if not solved by then, the 1921 English census will state exactly where Frances was born i.e. not just Scotland? ::)
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Goodness me, LoobyLoo and Annie, do you both ever sleep at night with all these conundrums in your head🤔
I had started to think Frances may have been born to a family member. I had seen that Henrietta Murray was the daughter of a Mary Rennock (also spelt Rennick elsewhere) - who was married to Charles st the time of the 1901 census.
The three additional children born after then - and showing on the 1911 census - i.e. Eliza, Charlotte and Catherine, I see that Catherine married an Andrew Walker Stewart. She died in April 1983. I’m going to see if there’s any mileage in exploring any possible trees for this surname, just in the hope that it throws some light on all this.
But if the above Charles emigrated to Canada, it raises the question of when he came back (if it is the same Charles, of course ) and was working at Plymouth Dockyard when frances married.
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I think I could have identified who 'Charles Kemp' was- not that it helps to identify a birth for Frances Dorothy.
As we know, Frances D. Kemp was in Plymouth in 1939 - also living in Plymouth were a Charles Kemp and wife Fanny. It's a wee bit complicated by incorrect dates/names/places being stated along the way but this is a precis of it:
Charles Kemp was born 21/4/1877 Whitstable, Kent, son of James Kemp and Eliza Holden.
(In 1875 they'd had a son Charles William Kemp, died 1876 and second son Charles registered as plain Charles - it got somewhat confusing here as there was a Charles William Kemp also born in Kent (Teyning) who had the exact same birthdate - he joined the Royal Navy but later records show he never married and died 1944 Chatham).
Anyway, plain Charles Kemp joined the Royal Marines and shown as still single in 1911!!
Then we move to Scotland - Charles Kemp, 37, Boilermans Labourer, widower(?) son of James Kemp, fisherman and Eliza nee Holden, married Fanny Holdroff 32 (? definitely not), single, dau. of Charles Holdroff, Warrant Officer, R.N. deceased and Sarah Holdroff, previously Tong, nee Sedgewood (or similar) married 7/5/1914 Pollokshields, Glasgow. Don't quite know how Charles said to be single 1911, and a widower in 1914 but definitely the same person as parents names on marriage certificate and his birthplace testify.
Fanny Holdroff is somewhat of an enigma herself when it came to give her age - she was actually born 9/2/1866 in Falmouth, Cornwall - okay whilst with family in 1871/1881/1891 but in 1901 states bc.1872, in 1911 in Devon bc.1874, 1914 bc.1882 at marriage and 1939 year is 1869. So she was actually 48 when she married Charles Kemp (so explains why they would adopt a child) but not quite sure how she got away with stating she was only 32!
Obviously, have no idea why they both left Devon (where they each were in 1911) to marry in Pollokshields, Glasgow 3 years later or how long they stayed there for. If Frances Dorothy was born 1917 then they must have stayed at least 3 years but back in Devon by 1939.
Annette
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But if the above Charles emigrated to Canada, it raises the question of when he came back (if it is the same Charles, of course ) and was working at Plymouth Dockyard when frances married.
Olives...NO! ;D...Definitely 2 different families although some strange coincidences!
The Charles who emigrated is the one on the Scottish (Charles) census' & I have found the 'Dockyard' (Charles) in England which I posted Reply #56 but with all the coincidences, I wouldn't rule out a connection for now as the Scottish family were in Glasgow where Frances was 'supposedly' born & the connections with the English family has Scottish relatives too.
Going by the birth yrs of both Charles' they're aged similar i.e. could be cousins but I don't want to confuse things by throwing this into the pot as it's just a thought!
All the places mentioned have connections with 'Boats' in some way so I'm keeing an open mind.
This conundrum certainly 'floats my boat' :P
Can the relatives search their inner thoughts as to anything else regarding Frances, a possible mother's name or link to anywhere in particular? Do you know where the 'Glasgow' connection originated?
"We’d be chuffed to bits if anyone can find any of her adoption records and whether she had any siblings"
As far as I know, you will not find adoption records online for anyone in UK (I may be proved wrong) as it's closely guarded & as legal adoption didn't begin until 1926 the info. would fall under the 100 yrs privacy anyway.
This is interesting...https://www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/806
Annie
Add...I see Annette has posted while I was typing, looking forward to reading ;D
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Wow Annette...great work, well done! ;)
Fanny, child Frances...does make sense doesn't it.
Back to SP now to see what possibilities are left as I believe there may be an error for the birth yr for Frances :-\
Have you found a connection with the adoptive family Charles who I think may be Charles R W Kemp?
This boat has many sails ;D
Annie
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Annie - you’re “awash” with ponderables😉
The daughters of Frances have absolutely no names or any other info, as they said Frances would never talk about her past. She must have mentioned Glasgow at some point though for them to know that.
Apart from waiting for the 1921 census I might start looking at Frances’s husband’s side of the family (cor which we do have info) in the hope that something else comes to light.
Out of interest - on the Scottish indexes site - I found a Charles Kemp (bc 1879) imprisoned for 12 months in 1908. His address at the time was 85 Richard street, Glasgow. Hmm....
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Also, Frances can’t have been in Scotland for a great length of time as apparently she had no Scottish accent.
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Annie - you’re “awash” with ponderables😉
Out of interest - on the Scottish indexes site - I found a Charles Kemp (bc 1879) imprisoned for 12 months in 1908. His address at the time was 85 Richard street, Glasgow. Hmm....
I have a habit of doing these things in my own research, maybe I'm just a very curious person but yes I tend to look at different angles when confronted with coincidences where there's possibilities.
A wee bit prior to 1908 but looks like a block of tenements with umpteen tenents but among them;
MURRAY JAMES Tenant Occupier
HOUSE NO 85 RICHARD STREET, GLASGOW
1905
VR010200571-
The surname Murray (again) is intriguing!
Annie
Add...There may be something in the papers about the court appearance?
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A wee bit prior to 1908 but looks like a block of tenements with umpteen tenents but among them;
MURRAY JAMES Tenant Occupier
HOUSE NO 85 RICHARD STREET, GLASGOW
1905
VR010200571-
The Charles found in 1901 by jc26red was at the same address he's at here in 1905;
KEMP CHARLES Tenant Occupier
HOUSE NO 75 FORGE STREET, GLASGOW
1905
VR010200578-
Not much help other than knowing where he was between census' ::)
Annie
Add...I don't think I've seen what our Scottish Charles' occ. was for 1901?
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Hi all,
Well done Annette - looks good !
Fanny Holdroff must have been in dire straits in 1911 - she is an inmate of the Don Hope Refuge in Plymouth on the Census.
Like you Annie , I wonder if the name Frances given to the adopted baby is a nod to the adoptive mother. Would this appear on the birth certificate? Probably not. Chances are the baby wasn't a newborn when she was handed over to the Kemps.
Looby :)
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I wonder if the name Frances given to the adopted baby is a nod to the adoptive mother. Would this appear on the birth certificate? Probably not. Chances are the baby wasn't a newborn when she was handed over to the Kemps.
Looby :)
If she was registered her mother's name will be on the cert. but as there's no Frances Dorothy Kemp it's difficult to know if she was registered or handed over unregistered i.e. with Fanny being a Kemp herself by then (assuming she is the mother) then Frances has been registered in another name?
There are only 6 born 1917 Kemp in Lanark.
Annie
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I wonder if the name Frances given to the adopted baby is a nod to the adoptive mother. Would this appear on the birth certificate? Probably not. Chances are the baby wasn't a newborn when she was handed over to the Kemps.
Looby :)
If she was registered her mother's name will be on the cert. but as there's no Frances Dorothy Kemp it's difficult to know if she was registered or handed over unregistered i.e. with Fanny being a Kemp herself by then (assuming she is the mother) then Frances has been registered in another name?
There are only 6 born 1917 Kemp in Lanark.
Annie
Yes, that's what I mean, Annie. I had originally being leaning towards the idea that baby Frances Dorothy was a child born to a family member who Charles Kemp and wife "adopted".
But now with the latest couple in the frame , Charles and Fanny (Holdroff) Kemp, being born in Kent and Cornwall, yet married in Glasgow , it seems less likely the baby was related to them. The baby girl could've been registered with a completely different name and the Kemps renamed her.
Looby :)
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Then we move to Scotland - Charles Kemp, 37, Boilermans Labourer, widower(?) son of James Kemp, fisherman and Eliza nee Holden, married Fanny Holdroff 32 (? definitely not), single, dau. of Charles Holdroff, Warrant Officer, R.N. deceased and Sarah Holdroff, previously Tong, nee Sedgewood (or similar) married 7/5/1914 Pollokshields, Glasgow.
Charles' mother is Elizabeth & Fanny's mother is Sarah yet the only birth which would relate to mothers names is 1916 Elizabeth Kemp in Anderston but there's a Jamesina Allison Kemp 1916 Gorbals & Charles father was James but...she could have been named anything ???
Annie
Add...Seen your post Looby...I have asked Annette if she has found a connection with the Charles who was the adoptive parent & this Charles & Fanny.
It seems too coincidental not to be related but it's an avenue I suppose as we are at a crossroads not knowing which turn off to take ;D ::)
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Annette, Looby, I think I may have picked it up wrong from Annette's post...will read it again ::)
Annie
Edited above...I'm sea sick ;D
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Have you found a connection with the adoptive family Charles who I think may be Charles R W Kemp?
Annie
To be honest, I didn't quite understand the question since all that is really known is that her adoptive father was named Charles Kemp and that in 1939 Frances Dorothy was living in Plymouth.
Lots of posting re. Charles Kemp's living in Scotland, etc. but all seemed to be clutching at straws I felt although understandable with just a name to go by.
So, I decided to check if there was a likely Charles Kemp living in Plymouth and came across Charles Kemp b.1877 with wife Fanny. Looked for a marriage but couldn't find one so, knowing that Frances Dorothy said to be born in Glasgow, decided to look for a marriage on Scotlands People and duly found the one in 1914. Since their parents didn't sound at all Scottish and couldn't find any likely births in Scotland turned back to English records and found what I posted earlier.
To me, this Charles and wife Fanny seem the ideal candidates to be the adoptive parents of Frances Dorothy. Both of them living in Devon in 1911, and in 1914 they married in Glasgow (Pollokshields) the area where FD born in 1917. Then, by 1939, all 3 of them are living in Plymouth. Seemed too much of a coincidence to me.
Clearly, Frances Dorothy wasn't born with these names as birth index research on SP has now shown, nor would she have been born as Kemp - indeed, we don't know what Christian name/Surname she would have been registered with only that she was born 2/7/1917. I suspect she was 'adopted' (albeit informally) as a baby and was given new Christian names by Charles Kemp and his wife before they subsequently moved to Devon. Since I've since read that she had no Scottish accent no doubt she was very young when the move from Glasgow to Devon took place and feel sure that Charles and Fanny were the adoptive parents.
Annette
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I have it now Annette!
I thought you meant as Fanny was ageing, she'd had the child with unknown forename but surname Kemp & later handed the child over/adopted her out to family for whatever reason & her forename had been changed.
I'm on track now! ;D
Annie
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It's going to be a very long shot (nigh on impossible) to identify the child with no knowledge of original name. The daughters of Frances Dorothy Kemp/Jenkin give her date of birth as 2/7/1917.
That date - July 2nd - is also the date of her wedding in 1940. Obviously not impossible that she married on her birthday.
Her husband Charles Jenkin's d.o.b was 8/7/1917 (reply 19) - very similar to his wife's :-\
I wonder if Frances knew for sure when her birthday was?
Looby :)
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Frances was probably “just handed over “ as didn’t this happen a lot in those days, when the tenements were full of folk (more often than not in pretty dire straits & couldn’t cope wall the children). [I found one family yesterday who had 15 children😳]
It’s sad to think of fanny being in a workhouse (my late grandmother was😞). It makes you wonder how she met Charles. Perhaps there was chance of work in Polkoshields....? I guess we might never really know. But I always say never die😁
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Which is why I would suggest a dna test, a family finder kind not ydna.
I would agree as this seems to be the only way as Annette's find/theory is the best lead in my opinion as a good start.
If it's possible to find more on the Charles from Annette's post i.e. siblings then descendants of theirs, luck may have a story passed down about an 'adoption' with possibly a little more precise info. i.e. area of Glasgow which may help further with dna?
I think Frances was married twice from the info. Annette posted, I wonder if she had any other family?
As Looby says...
It's going to be a very long shot (nigh on impossible) to identify the child with no knowledge of original name.
I can't imagine how anyone would feel not knowing who their real parents were, very sad indeed! :(
It's been an interesting thread.
Annie
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Oh, Annette, Looby, Annie, what a confusing old game, eh?
I do appreciate we’ve got nothing concrete to go on, other than we know Charles worked at the Dockyard and FD was in Warleigh Avenue.
I’m definitely going to push on with Plymouth (is it okay for me to put a new thread under Plymouth just asking about the particular property there and the Mr & Mrs Best who also resided there) ? I don’t want to do the wrong thing!
I’ll also research descendants down the line JUST in the hope that some tiny chink pops up.
However, re Annette’s post indicating FD had been married before, well the MC puts her down as spinster at the age of 22......🤔
Thanks for all,the hard work you’ve all put in. If only we weren’t tied by the 100 year rule.....but then it would be too easy I guess 😁
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However, re Annette’s post indicating FD had been married before, well the MC puts her down as spinster at the age of 22......🤔
?? - I never said FD had been married before??? All I said was that Charles Kemp on 1911 in Devon stated he was single and yet when he married Fanny in Scotland 1914 - just 3 years later - he stated he was a widower.
Annette
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ah, many apologies, Annette. I'd misread Annie's post re Frances's marriage. My memory is obviously nothing as sharp as all you experts on here. Don't know how you don't lose yourselves in all this. I have to keep trawling back to retain all the info. And I'm not THAT old! Ha.
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Hiya,
RE- Frances Dorothy's birthdate - her 1987 Death registration gives the date as 15th July 1917.
Your earlier info from daughters was 2nd Jul 1917.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVZW-39Z7
Splitting hairs :P - bur worth bearing in mind for future should any probable births be found.
Hope you get your mystery solved, Olives
Looby :)
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Likely not make any difference to your search, but Frances' address on the 1939 Register is 10 Lockington Ave., not Warleigh Ave. Four people are listed at this address, 1.Charles R. Mason. 2.Elizabeth B. Mason. 3.(Record officially closed), and 4.Frances D. Kemp/Jenkin. **Born 15/7/1917** Frances' occupation is listed as Domestic Service, but that doesn't automatically mean she is employed by the Mason family.
Good Luck with your search.
Regards, Dod.
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Thanks, Looby. I’ve just checked with one of the daughters and she now says that that is the correct date after all - and not 2/7/17.....🙄
Dod: thanks for the info about the Plymouth address. Even more to ponder on and research......
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Charles Kemp, 37, Boilermans Labourer, widower(?) son of James Kemp, fisherman and Eliza nee Holden, married Fanny Holdroff 32 (? definitely not), single, dau. of Charles Holdroff, Warrant Officer, R.N. deceased and Sarah Holdroff, previously Tong, nee Sedgewood (or similar) married 7/5/1914 Pollokshields, Glasgow.
I think Frances was married twice from the info. Annette posted, I wonder if she had any other family?
Apologies, I somehow missed mother Sarah's name in that sentence (at the time) i.e. it makes more sense now as I couldn't fathom what exactly was meant, Frances having stated she was single yet all those surnames ::)
Just out of curiosity, I looked at Pollockshields (where they married) for a Frances (incase they kept her original forename albeit a coincidence with Fanny's name if so) & there were 3 but one had me wondering...
DONNELLY FRANCES (1917) 644/18 376 Pollokshields
How strange Donnelly as opposed to Dorothy!
I didn't find a death in Scotland which would fit but she could have been anywhere.
Annie
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'DONNELLY FRANCES (1917) 644/18 376 Pollokshields'
Already checked this one - born 16th June to a James Donnelly and Mary Ann Donohue married 1914.
Annette
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Annette, it's difficult not to get too interested/intrigued isn't it, if anything can be a possible help for future ;)
The Frances Donnelly was a peculiar one given the initials!
I think I have an added interest as I descend from a Kemp ;D
Annie
Add...I also descend from a Donohue (many variants) who was the husband of the daughter of the Kemp mother although married i.e. Donohue's wife was Lunn ::)
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ah, many apologies, Annette. I'd misread Annie's post re Frances's marriage. My memory is obviously nothing as sharp as all you experts on here. Don't know how you don't lose yourselves in all this. I have to keep trawling back to retain all the info. And I'm not THAT old! Ha.
I'm the one to blame! & I sincerely apologise as it does get confusing & my memory isn't great i.e. have to scroll back & forth too & yes, that's what happens, I get lost & err (frequently) as I sometimes interpret things wrongly especially when speed reading! ::)
Annie
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Thought this may be of interest...
1901 - 29 Chichester Rd, Portsmouth, Southampton
Charles R W Kemp 28 (c1873) Steam Engine Motor Fitter, b Chatham, Kent ***
Jane S Kemp 27 Wife
Charles G Kemp 4 Son
John E Kemp 1 Son
Peter D Murray 24 M Visitor, Insurance Agent, b Peterhead, Scotland
Winifred Murray 24 M Visitor, b Chatham, Kent
Jennie Murray 1 Visitor, b ? (couldn't read it), Portsmouth
ED 20 Piece 981 Folio 24 Pg 3 Sch16
1911 - (unsure of what details I'm allowed to post)
Charles 38 M Engine Fitter
Susan 37 M (using her middle name)
Charles 14
John 11
Alfred 8
Jean Murray (now Niece)
William Poarch 31 M Visitor
Nellie 31 Poarch 31 M Visitor
Couldn't help but notice the coincidence, the birth for Henrietta Murray Kemp 1892 (posted earlier) i.e. although not the same family there may be a connection, stranger things have happened...
The Charles Kemp mentioned in the last post, emigrated to Canada in 1920, one of his daughters, Henrietta, was already there.
Marriage
Charles Richard William Kemp 21 (c1873)
30 Jun 1894 St Margaret, Plumstead, Greenwich, England
Father Richard William Kemp
Spouse Jane Susannah Barker
Parish Register
*** UK, Shipping and Seamen WWI and WWII Rolls of Honour, 1914-1945 for Charles Richard William Kemp
BT 339:6 Mercantile Marine Officers; Nominal lists; copies of ´London Gazette´ (1916 - 1920)
30 Mar 1920 - Charles Richard William Kemp, Inspector of Engine Fitters, H M Dockyard, Portsmouth
1939
Charpeman Engine Fitter H M Dockyard Poste (RETD) (Chargeman)
Death
Charles R W Kemp 88 (c1873)
Reg Mar 1961 RD Portsmouth, County Hampshire Vol 6b Pg 567
Probate
Charles Richard William Kemp (MBE)
21 Drayton Road, North End, Portsmouth died 16 Mar 1961 Probate London 21 Apr
to John Edwin Kemp retired Chargeman of Fitters. Effects £1486 12s. 9d.
Annie
As indicated above Charles George Kemp (b1896) married Minnie Davey in 1932. I’m not sure if this has been noted before but for what it’s worth a tree on Ancestry appears to indicate that he had also married a Dorothy, no surname, dates, parents etc.
Imber
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Thanks Imber/Annie. The mystery continues. It’s so hard without very little paperwork to go on.
I’m now looking at Frances’s husband, who was in the RAF at the time of their marriage. I’ve been looking on Ancestry for service records, but guess I’m right in assuming that, because of the 100 year rule, that’s why I’m unable to find details of his service record.
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Ray: I’ve just taken on a free trial on Ancestry and was trying to find the tree you mentioned instigated by ‘SAJ’. I’ve tried searching by those initials under the trees, but can’t seem to find it. I’ve also tried SAJ’s deceased parents’ names, but to no avail. Can you point me in the right direction, please?
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Thanks Imber/Annie. The mystery continues. It’s so hard without very little paperwork to go on.
I’m now looking at Frances’s husband, who was in the RAF at the time of their marriage. I’ve been looking on Ancestry for service records, but guess I’m right in assuming that, because of the 100 year rule, that’s why I’m unable to find details of his service record.
There is no 100 year rule for WW2 service records but these are still held by the MOD. Full release of records to other than next of kin is only allowed 25 years after the death of the subject. The full details are given here:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/request-records-of-deceased-service-personnel
Imber
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Ah, thanks Imber.
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I’ve been checking up another FT re a Sarah Kemp (b1832) marrying a George Norworthy (to see if there’s any connection with our Kemps). Apparently someone has said that it is thought they were Quakers from Tavistock and, if so, their BMD records are kept solely by the Quakers. I’d not heard of that before.....
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Good evening
I am very very new to this and I was looking through messages with the name of Holdroff, I am a descendent of this family, I am from Falmouth in Cornwall and I have been reading through what you have written about a family member called Fanny. Before I go any further with information which I believe may help I just want to make sure I am doing this right as I said I am very new.
Debbie
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ok I have had a double check and everybody you have mentioned in your messages, Fanny Holdroff, husband, children, where born, also places Fanny worked, mothers maiden name the name Tong, Sedgmond etc is in my family for sure. I am so excited that I hope will be able to help. I hope that you don't mind me writing this but I am ecstatic. I do hope that you reply as it would be amazing.
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I hope this is helpful, I have received a pm but cannot open it
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Hi Debbie
Thanks for coming on here. It’s all very confusing but I’d be interested to hear of any info you have on Fanny.
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Apologies if this has already been mentioned but there are 12 pages of replies ;D
Reply 24 says birthdate 2.7.17 but death reg shows 15th July as does 1939 entry
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Following this story
I've read all 12 pages now it looks like the 2nd July date was a mistake and the
Debbie's information will be interesting
Would any school records exist for Dorothy ?
My grandmother was adopted informally kept first name but middle name changed
Definitely worth looking at names of potential grandmorhers or mother's named Dorothy or Francis
Have you ruled out DNA ? It helped us confirm both birth parents for us
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This is the information that I have regarding Fanny Holdroff
She was born in January 1866 in Falmouth, Cornwall, to Sarah Ann Sedgmond, age 34, and Charles Edward Holdroff, age 27.
Fanny Holdroff lived in Falmouth, Cornwall, in 1871.
Her brother John Charles was born in 1871 in Falmouth, Cornwall, when Fanny was 5 years old.
Her father Charles Edward passed away on 25 April 1873 in Pernambuco, Brazil, at the age of 34. Her brother John Charles died on 5 July 1874 in Falmouth, Cornwall, when Fanny was 8 years old. Fanny Holdroff lived in Falmouth, Cornwall, in 1881 and 1891. In the 1901 census Fanny was a Domestic servant (cook) as an inmate at Dm of Hope Refuge, 31 Hampton St, Plymouth Cornwall.
Sarah Sedgmond remarried married Edward N Tong (hence where the Tongs came into it.)
Her mother Sarah Ann Sedgmond passed away on 10 August 1904 in St. Thomas, Devon, at the age of 72. Fanny Holdroff lived in Plymouth, Devon, in 1911. Marital Status: Single; Relation to Head: Inmate1911 • Plymouth, Devon, England.
Her half-sister Annie died in December 1920 in Bodmin, Cornwall, when Fanny was 54 years old Annie Tong 1856–1920 Dec 1920 • Bodmin, Cornwall. Fanny Holdroff died in 1944 in Plymouth, Devon, when she was 78 years old 1944 • Plymouth, Devon. Burial 10 Aug 1944 • Kent, England On my tree I have a link to Charles Kemp but not much info at the moment. My daughter and I have just sent off our DNA so we may get more info later.
I hope this helps so far, I have more info but didn't want to bombard you. As I said I am new to the Roots chat but have been doing my tree for quite a while, if this is not the case I fully apologise but there are too many coincidences from what has been written.
Debbie
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Hi Debbie. So sorry for the long delay but I’ve been busy with various other things that have distracted my concentration.
I’m struggling to get my head round this Fanny. I can’t seem to grasp how she’s linked to Charles Kemp when she was born in 1866 and also that she didn’t seem to marry?
Just reading a lot of the old comments on this topic and I’m finding it difficult to link Fanny in with the “Frances Dorothy Kemp” my initial post was about.
If you have any other information to share then please do feel free to email me direct.
Thanks
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olives, in reply no. 63 Debbie said that Frances D.Kemp was living in Plymouth in 1939. Also in Plymouth were Charles & Fanny (nee Holdroff) Kemp. In 1911 they were in Devon but they married in 1914 in Pollokshields. As Fanny was actually 48 (& not 32 as stated on the marriage certificate) it is feasible that they may have "adopted" your Frances.Hope this clarifies things for you.
flst
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Thanks, flst. I’m very naive with this site but don’t know how the numbers work out in relation to what you said about debbie’s Post no 63.
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As an example,your most recent post is reply number 105. This one is 106.
flst
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Ah, thank you Flst. 😁
That definitely outlines things more, thank you.
I’ll just wait to hear Debbie’s response....
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Thanks Brigidmac. The daughter of “Frances Dorothy” is considering DNA.
Regarding school records, doesn’t the 100 year rule apply?