RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Norfolk Nan on Monday 04 March 19 12:03 GMT (UK)
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I have a very difficult ancestor who refuses to reveal his birth and parentage but, thanks to an interesting article, has left me with a lot of anecdotal information about his life including his military career. He was born mid-1860s and claims to have been 'called to arms' three times. The final time was as a civilian driving soldiers to the front so perhaps, technically, doesn't count as military service. However, it sounds like he did a stint in the army in the 1880s and was recalled for the Boer War. He tells a tale of being lost and mistaken for a Boer and imprisoned until his identity was confirmed but that's all the information I have.
His name is John Lee and claims to be born in Isleworth, Middlesex, but I can find nothing about his life prior to 1894 when he suddenly appears on his child's birth certificate. As far as finding a military record the name John Lee is close to John Smith but I admit I'm not an expert in this area. So, my question is this - with the scant details I have would it be possible to pin point his service record? I have a date of birth 18.4.1864 that I can't confirm, and a father - John Lee - that I can't confirm.
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A couple of possible Birth Registrations from FreeBMD:
June qtr 1864
Stepney Registration District vol 1c, page 476
Lee, John
June qtr 1864
Wandsworth Registration District vol 1d, page 421
Lee, John Powell
There are other possible births within a year either side.
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Matching entries from the GRO Indexes site:
LEE, JOHN (Mother's Maiden Name:) ANDERSON
GRO Reference: 1864 J Quarter in STEPNEY Volume 01C Page 476
LEE, JOHN POWELL BIELFELD
GRO Reference: 1864 J Quarter in WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 421
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Have you looked on Find My Past for his army record? They have several John Lees born in Middlesex/London. I don't have a subscription at the moment so can't open up the records unfortunately.
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My first observation is that if serving in the Boer War he wouldn't have been on the 1901 census??
Annette
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What occupation does he give on his child/children’s birth certs... and where where they living at this point?
Have you found him on any of the census returns?
Also, have you found a marriage to the child’s mother?
If the only info you have is family stories and one entry on a birth cert, you cannot discount that he may have been a made up father.
We really need a concrete reference point, so that we can try to unravel the mistery. Unfortunately the name John Lee is extremely popular.
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Do you have his marriage certificate? What did that say about his age, occupation and father's name?
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Details of the marriage are on the other thread started today https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=809352
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Thanks all. There are a number of possible births on BMD listings but none that tick the boxes I have. I've looked on Ancestry and FindMyPast with the same result - several military possibilities but nothing that helps nail him. John Lee from London is the nearest I get. I don't know enough about the Boer Wars but I agree with the point about him being on the 1901 census but wasn't there an earlier war? Or were they the Zulu wars? This isn't my area of expertise.
I suppose my question about military records is this - are earlier records as detailed as those for WW1? If I find some will they hold information like date of birth, parents, birth place or wasn't that important in the Victorian military? It's a clue but do I waste any more time on this line if it won't help?
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I found my Great-Grandfather's army record on FindMyPast. He was in the army from 1885 to 1892. There were seven pages and it included his age at enlistment, place of birth, physical description etc. So it's well worth finding your ancestor's record if you can.
I know how difficult it can be though when you're dealing with a common name. One of my other Great-Grandfathers was called Joseph/John Wright and is being very elusive, so I do sympathise!
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Thanks for the encouragement, Sandy. I've been trawling through likely military records and came across a likely John Lee, attesting in 1881, about the right age, claimed his father was John...I thought I might be onto a good thing...and then I discovered a statement that this man was actually Charles Mitchell but had signed up using the name John Lee. So now I'm wondering did Mr Mitchell find himself back on civvy street but liking the name Lee???
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wasn't there an earlier war?
The first Boer War was in 1880-81.
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That would at least tie in with the first period of army service. Thank you.
Going back to the point about John being on the 1901 census therefore not involved in the Boer War, I've read elsewhere here that it was possible through a reservist system so I'll keep it in mind.
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There are a number of possible births on BMD listings but none that tick the boxes I have.
"His late marriage was done away from their place of abode to cover the fact they'd been together unwed for a while, but he states his father is John Lee, plate layer on his marriage certificate."
Could he have mistaken where he was born as his father's occ. may have taken him quite a distance?
Annie
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Yes, Rosinish, very possible. There are just too many ifs and buts with this chap. I had hoped tracing his military service record might help but even that's proving almost impossible without one or two concrete facts.
Thanks for the replies everyone. I was mostly concerned with the military issue but every little helps...
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in 1939 he states dob as 18 April 1864
I just noticed a baptism in Islington (on 7 May 1865) - John Lee born 16 April 1865. Parents John (a labourer) and Emily. 3 Cherry Tree Court
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Thanks, Shaun - that at least hits a few nails on the head...I will take a closer look - which church? And which site are you using?
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I found it on Ancestry. The church is St Thomas Charterhouse.
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Thanks, Shaun. I think this may be 'my' man. I'm working through the evidence at the moment but it's looking very possible... your help is much appreciated.
Update...
I've followed the trail back and forth, checked marriages, baptisms, census and this isn't my guy. What a shame. The search continues...
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"He tells a tale of being lost and mistaken for a Boer"
I would have thought that the Authorities would have known the difference between a Boer accent for those Boers who were bilingual and that of a soldier with a Middlesex accent.
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I was mostly concerned with the military issue but every little helps...
Yes but the other thread is locked for replies to save duplication of effort.
Annie
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"He tells a tale of being lost and mistaken for a Boer"
I would have thought that the Authorities would have known the difference between a Boer accent for those Boers who were bilingual and that of a soldier with a Middlesex accent.
One would have thought i.e. "tells a tale" is how I would read it.
Annie
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Hi Annie, yes, annoyingly the other thread is locked and my comment was waspish but meant to make the point that my two posts had different questions. Sorry :-[
I've been back to the original article where John is interviewed and he said he spent six years in the Army horse transport before joining the London General Ominibus Company in 1887, then was recalled to colours twice, serving throughout the Boer War and the whole of WW1. He says one of his adventures in South Africa was being 'captured' by an Irish regiment which took him for a Boer Spy and threatened to shoot him. He was without uniform after taking part in an arduous campaign and he lost his unit while on a secret cross-country march. After a month in a prisoner-of-war cage, however, his identity was established beyond doubt. Interesting, but some of it is a bit tongue-in-cheek. I'm a bit out of my depth with army research but maybe something will come up... thanks again (and sorry again)
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he spent six years in the Army horse transport before joining the London General Ominibus Company in 1887
So we would expect to find him in the 1891 census in London as an omnibus or bus something. I wonder what name he was using then?
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Well, yes, that's the rub. in 1894 he was a letter carrier according to his daughter's birth certificate. Oh, and in 1899 his marriage cert says 'farrier'. Bear in mind that the article was published in 1955 when he was c90... nothing is straight forward, is it! ::) And I have checked with LT several times - no record of him of course.