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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: lmfamilyresearch on Wednesday 06 March 19 00:37 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
This is another one of my John Garth (Rochdale, Lanc) questions but it's related to two children my great-aunt has connected to him but I can't and that I'm not sure are connected to my family. The information my great-aunt received from her commissioned research was that John Garth and Mary Kershaw, among others, had two children named Ellen and Julia. (For this thread I am not interested in the children of John Garth and Mary Kershaw that I can find documents for and for whom I've received help from Rootschatters). Now, I don't quite believe that Ellen and Julia are John and Mary's children at all, especially since their other children all have their baptisms registered. Ellen was born somewhere around 1816 and Julia somewhere around 1819. There is an Ellen born in Colne in 1817 to different parents (William Garth and Ellen). I can't find any birth/baptism for a Julia at all. I am not even sure that Ellen and Julia are siblings.
The Ellen associated to my ancestors showed up in Montreal, Quebec, Canada, married (to Peter Cooper in 1841) and died there (in 1849). The Julia associated with my ancestors also showed up in Montreal, Quebec, Canada, married (1836 to John Maugs/Mangs Gall) and died (in 1841) there. Neither of the marriage records for Ellen or Julia indicate who their parents are. I don't know when either of them arrived in Montreal.
I don't know if it's a coincidence or not that both Ellen Garth and Julia Garth settled in the same city where my ancestor George Garth settled after leaving Lancashire. If Ellen and Julia are sisters to, or related some other way to George then I have not been able to connect them at all.
What does everyone think?
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Ellen and George....
One witness to Ellen's marriage was a Geo Garth (George?).
A George Garth and Sarah Whittaker had a daughter Sarah Anne baptized in Montreal in 1832. An Ellen Garth was one of the sponsers. Her signature here matches that on the above marriage, as does George's.
Is this George your George? This George and Ellen seem to be connected?
PB
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Yes that is my George. I didn't see those bits of information so thanks! It would seem that Ellen and George are somehow connected. I just wonder how they are connected.
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Julia....
I was wondering where you got the info about Julia's 1841 death from? The only death that seems to turn up is for a Julia Taylor wife of Charles Gall who died in Montreal 09 March 1841 aged 51 years. St James Methodist Church.
There is a marriage in England 09 Sep 1813 that may be related to this couple. St Anne Westminster Middlesex.
PB
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Hi PB,
I got the information from my great-aunt's information. To be honest, I am not sure how accurate it was, especially since she hired someone to do the research for her. Plus I always like to verify someone else's research for myself (if I am getting the information second hand).
When I found a death record for a Julia Gall in 1841 it didn't indicate who her spouse was. It just said Mrs. Julia Gall.
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OK. Always good to verify, for sure.
The image of the burial record I cited above is available in the Drouin Collection on Ancestry if you have a sub that covers Canada. Alternately, your local public library may subscribe to Ancestry Library Edition which would also give you access.
I believe the records are also available on the familysearch website.
The record is under Julia Taylor......women go by their maiden names in Quebec records. The record itself names her husband.
PB
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Well that explains why I couldn't view the record on Ancestry, I was searching by married name ::)
I forgot about the women in Quebec keeping their own name even when married.
I find I sometimes get better results when searching with a woman's married name.
I am hoping that when I visit my cousin I will be able to see my great-aunt's research for myself to see if I can find the connection between George and Ellen, but I am not counting on it being available or even there.
I have to admit that Ellen and Julia are a mystery and one I would like to figure out :)
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It's too bad that parents' names aren't usually given in Protestant marriage records the way they usually are for Roman Catholic ones. I think Ellen and George are probably related but will be difficult to figure out how.
The Montreal Directory has a George and Charles Garth at the same address in 1849. If Charles is related, do you know how?
PB
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Hello,
Charles is George Garth's son. Charles is my3x g-grandfathers and George is my 4x g-grandfather (if I counted the greats correctly). My great aunt put a whole lot of information on Charles in the Library and Archives but I don't think there is a whole lot about George in that fond. One of these days I will get to LAC and look through that fond.
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Wow, your family goes back a long way in Quebec.
PB
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John M Gall (transcribed on ancestry as Garl) died 3 May 1849 age 34 buried St George's Anglican Church.
Notaries:
His wife provided an inventory of his estate in 1851 as Mrs. John Gall
Charles Gall could be a relative to John Mengs Gall as on 19 May 1848 he signs an obligation to Hannah Taylor re Charles Gall.
Could Julia have remarried? her husband died young.
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"John M Gall (transcribed on ancestry as Garl) died 3 May 1849 age 34 buried St George's Anglican Church.
Notaries:
His wife provided an inventory of his estate in 1851 as Mrs. John Gall
Charles Gall could be a relative to John Mengs Gall as on 19 May 1848 he signs an obligation to Hannah Taylor re Charles Gall.
Could Julia have remarried? her husband died young."
This certainly indicates that Julia Garth was alive in 1851. I haven't looked into the Gall side yet so Charles could be a son to John or definitely related somehow (I got sidetracked on Ellen and Julia :) ). It is certainly possible that Julia could have married a second time. Definitely something to look into.
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Wow, your family goes back a long way in Quebec.
PB
My earliest ancestors in both Ontario and Quebec arrived in 1819.
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Gosh, what a lovely legacy!
Have you traced the children of Ellen Garth and Peter Cooper? George Garth is a sponsor for one of the ones that I have found a baptism for.
I find it difficult to imagine Ellen and George aren't somehow related.
PB
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It is wonderful. Especially when one in Toronto area wrote his own memoire. The Garth's and Bulmers in Montreal were, well there is a lot of information (good) about them.
The Garth's installed plumbing and heating (I believe) in the Parliament buildings in Ottawa and they seemed to be doing good business with their company.
The Bulmers seemed to own a fair amount of property in Montreal. There are a fair number of pictures of them in the McCord Archives in Montreal (which has the Notman and Sons photo archive).
I have been very lucky with the information and photos available for some of my Montreal ancestors.
I have not yet started tracing Ellen and Peter's children. From my great aunt I at least have a starting point to work from. Definitely on my list of things to do.
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It's such fun when you are able to find great info like that.
Give us a shout if you get stuck with Ellen and Peter's children.
PB
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I presume by now you have ruled out Ellen 1818 Colne Parents William/Ellen?
She appears to have married 1846 to Thomas Hutton, her Father William, Cotton Manufacturer same as her Baptism.
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I presume by now you have ruled out Ellen 1818 Colne Parents William/Ellen?
She appears to have married 1846 to Thomas Hutton, her Father William, Cotton Manufacturer same as her Baptism.
Yes I ruled out the 1818 Ellen from Colne.
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OK, I have started searching for Ellen and Peter's children. So far I have found children Ann, William #1, Victoria, Frederick, Alfred, Unknown and William #2. I have also found the burial records for Ann and William #1. I have found the baptism for Alfred, Unknown, Victoria, William #2 and Frederick. Now I am a little stuck. I haven't had luck finding anything else. Am I just too tired that I am not seeing anything?
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Did you notice that that the death record for one of the twins had both George Garth and John Gall (who is probably Julia Garth's husband) as witnesses? Another circumstantial piece of evidence to connect the 3 Garths to each other, perhaps.
Hard to find info going forward. Much of the 1851/2 Montreal census seems to be missing. I found Peter in 1961 with William and Alfred. No sign of any other possibly surviving children so far.
Do you know about the Montreal Directory?
http://bibnum2.bnquebec.ca/bna/lovell/
PB
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I stumbled across something that said Peter Cooper was an accountant for the Gas Co. or Company of which George Garth was the head of.
I did notice the George Garth and John Hall on the baptisms.
Today I found a reference for the Montreal directory but I haven't looked at the directories yet (too tired). It would be nice if I could find online off versions of it to make searching easier.
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So I dug through the papers my cousin has and wouldn't you know it, very little on the Garth family and nothing on Julia and Ellen :'(
I am slowly researching Julia and Ellen's children.