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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: emilypos on Friday 08 March 19 11:53 GMT (UK)
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Gt Gt gfathther Edwin, was born 1827 NY State USA. Arrived in Melbourne c 1853 . Married a lass from Aberdeen. They had a son in 1855 and moved north to Ballarat before Aug 1856. Had 2 daughters and then moved way north up to Rockhampton early 1861
In 1863 gg Gfather Edwin bought 500 pounds worth of land within Rockhampton . Ive searched the Star newspaper ( Ballarat paper) 1855-61 . Could only find a brief political ref Dec 1856 and he got into trouble for not registering his sons birth 22 Jan 1860 was find 5 shillings But no bank heists ?? No Lotto back then Dont have any ref to him being a miner Does anyone know if any major Ballarat gold discoveries were recorded ? Only one I recall is Holtermans Nugget but was much later and in NSW anyway. 500 pounds was a great deal of money back then ?
Bye
Emilypos
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Hi,
Some thoughts ...
:D Inheritance arrived from inlaws or long lost spinster aunt
:D Mortgage involved
:D Conditional Purchase allowed repayments over time
:D found the pot at end of the rainbow
If this had been NSW I would do a title search and go right back to the purchase terms he had agreed to. BUT I am not familiar with conveyancing in Qld.... and Qld was hived off NSW 1859.
JM
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QLD state archives
Record Type Legal agreements
Item Format Files
Description BRODNITZ, Michael (Vendor) and CARPENTER, Edwin (Purchaser)
Start Date 1/9/1863 - End Date 7/9/1863
http://www.archivessearch.qld.gov.au/Search/BasicSearch.aspx
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I bought copy of these 2 legal files from QSA a few days ago. Was this info that he'd spent 500 pounds
on land in Rockhampton that set me off on the hunt again. If an inheritance was involved 99% sure it wouldnt have been from his family in America . His grandma died before he was born and grandfather in 1840. Got copy of his will some time ago. His father d in 1872 Will check out his wives family
Bye
Emilypos
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Could only find a brief political ref Dec 1856
Just noting this newspaper reference actually acknowledges that he was a ratepayer in Ballarat in December 1856. He is supporting a candidate for council elections.
Sue
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QLD state archives
Record Type Legal agreements
Item Format Files
Description BRODNITZ, Michael (Vendor) and CARPENTER, Edwin (Purchaser)
Start Date 1/9/1863 - End Date 7/9/1863
http://www.archivessearch.qld.gov.au/Search/BasicSearch.aspx
and
I bought copy of these 2 legal files from QSA a few days ago. Was this info that he'd spent 500 pounds
on land in Rockhampton that set me off on the hunt again. If an inheritance was involved 99% sure it wouldnt have been from his family in America . His grandma died before he was born and grandfather in 1840. Got copy of his will some time ago. His father d in 1872 Will check out his wives family
Bye
Emilypos
Is there any information on those files that refers to the Terms of Payment that the Seller expected? There are land sales in NSW in that era, where the seller expected a deposit, and then 20 or more annual payments (once a year, after the buyer had produced a crop and sold it at the markets etc) .... The seller usually stayed in the local district too, so was likely a neighbour. You may not need to find out IF he had £500 cash on hand when he entered into the purchase agreement. That type of arrangement (deferring payments) allowed the land to be improved, and for the seller to have a regular income (from the land he had previously owned, and over which he was still 'controlling') and for the buyer to produce off that land, and increase his own wealth too.
JM
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Well, ;)
Edwin had deserted his family and was believed to be in the USA by the time of his wife's death (Margaret nee LESLIE) in 1877.
She had had her last child in Ballarat in 1868.
Her net worth at time of death was just over 100 EDIT 200 pounds.
Her probate documents and other family information is available.
Sue
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Maybe he did find a 'pot of gold' ? File attached are these 2 legal doc and a letter he wrote to his wife from the US that I typed up long time ago . The original was cross written . He didnt desert her. I got copy of her estate details a long time ago ........ She is referred to as wife of Edwin CARPENTER of parts beyond the seas ..........
Currently only 2 trees in Ancestrys public . Used to be a few more . Both have guesses . One combines 2 quite separate LESLIE families . LESLIE is quite a common name around Aberdeenshire
The other has an Edwin CARPENTER arriving Melbourne 1853 per maybe ship Alabama . According to a file I checked that person was 4 yrs old
Was getting copy of these 2 legal files that set me off on the hunt again
Bye
Emilypos
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Well, it is just that the attached snip from the affidavit of Edwin jnr in the matter of probate application states no contact for several years.
She is referred to as wife of Edwin CARPENTER of parts beyond the seas ..........
She was the wife of Edwin Carpenter whether living with him or not.
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Maybe he did find a 'pot of gold' ?
They must have been doing alright for themselves at some stage as she owned a gold diamond ring. [re same address as her funeral notice]
The Australasian (Melbourne, Vic. : 1864 - 1946)
Sat 6 Jan 1872
Amongst the robberies reported in this week's Police Gazette are the following:
Stolen from the dwelling of John Hood and Co., Elizabeth-street, 24th December, a cash box containing a cheque for £19 10s. 6d., some documents and ? for small amounts; from the dwelling of Margaret Carpenter, Cardigan-street Carlton, 26th December, a gold diamond ring, other jewellery, coins, and tobacco;
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/138087775
What was his occupation when in VIC?
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In this QLD news item after his death, he is described as a painter
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/170212821
I remember seeing the term contractor describing him somewhere also.
I will backtrack and try to locate it
Sue
ADDING
In 1875 Sands and McDugall's Directory lists Margaret CARPENTER as a grocer at Elgin Street
Carlton
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In this QLD news item after his death, he is described as a painter
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/170212821
I remember seeing the term contractor describing him somewhere also.
I will backtrack and try to locate it
Sue
Margaret's will had him noted as a contractor.
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;D
Ah, that's where I saw it.
So I don't know what his occ was in the 1850's
Sue
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In 1865 there were a few notices placed by Edwin senior in regard to his planned absence from Rockhampton. I have not located anything that says where he is going, but presumably he did not leave immediately as his last child was born in Melbourne in 1868.
This is one of the notices as he announces the appointment of agent for his due rent collections.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/51565393
Sue
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Ref to the application for probate found by a Rootschatter after Margaret CARPENTERs death came as a complete surprise . As way back when, actually 2 Sep 1990,I got 5 copies of an admin file for her estate and a letter in reply to advise there was no application for probate. Cost me $22.10
Maybe a silly question but is Victoria the only State to have such records and they be digitised ?
Bye
Emilypos
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Ref to the application for probate found by a Rootschatter after Margaret CARPENTERs death came as a complete surprise . As way back when, actually 2 Sep 1990,I got 5 copies of an admin file for her estate and a letter in reply to advise there was no application for probate. Cost me $22.10
Maybe a silly question but is Victoria the only State to have such records and they be digitised ?
Bye
Emilypos
It is NOT a silly question.... :D
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/probate-packets-wills-guide
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/probate-records-supplementary-index
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/deceased-estates-index
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=703011.0
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/intestate-estates-index
NSW State Archives : Webinars ....
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/webinars (NSW Probate Records has its own webinar) there's a current technical issue with opening these ::) ::)
JM
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Thanks JM
None of these State Records files are digitised . Been out to Kingswood quite a few times . A recent improvement is Ancestry now have the NSW deceased estate cards in a more accessible format and the NSW will books on FindMyPast to 1952 . I did have a quick check on Cora NUMMs web site and was inconclusive that VIC is only State to to have probate applications digitised Appears to be so
And perhaps even accessible to search ?
Bye
Emilypos
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Tasmania has some of their wills online also. If im right i think its just Tassie and VIC that have them digitised online.
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Hi Emilypos
Are you able to tell us the content of the will document if you acquired it from QLD Archives?
Am I correct in thinking you did get a copy?
Sue
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Yes VIC wills have been on line and downloadable for some time as have TAS BUT these are separate docs to probate applications. I wondered if such were searchable although not digitised in other States. Think I'd give the NT as miss . Just took 6 weeks to get copy of will
Bye
Emilypos
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Over the course of this topic you have been asked some questions.
In order to move forward, it would help if you were able to reply to them.
Is there any information on those files that refers to the Terms of Payment that the Seller expected? There are land sales in NSW in that era, where the seller expected a deposit, and then 20 or more annual payments (once a year, after the buyer had produced a crop and sold it at the markets etc) .... The seller usually stayed in the local district too, so was likely a neighbour. You may not need to find out IF he had £500 cash on hand when he entered into the purchase agreement. That type of arrangement (deferring payments) allowed the land to be improved, and for the seller to have a regular income (from the land he had previously owned, and over which he was still 'controlling') and for the buyer to produce off that land, and increase his own wealth too.
JM
Hi Emilypos
Are you able to tell us the content of the will document if you acquired it from QLD Archives?
Am I correct in thinking you did get a copy?
Sue
Sue
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Dear JM,
Not aware of not answering any questions ? I did try to upload copy of both legal docs didnt see them in this forum. Then I scanned just one page of each which seemed the most important but again didnt seem to work . Edwin letter uploaded OK
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Dear Sue,
I bought copy of 2 legal files from QSA relating to land in Rockhampton gg gfather had spent 500 pounds on purchasing back in 1863
The probate application was sourced from VIC PRO ( found by a Rootschater)
Bye
Emilypos
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Hi there Emilypos,
I am becoming confuddled by your replies, particularly this one addressed to me.
Dear JM,
Not aware of not answering any questions ? I did try to upload copy of both legal docs didnt see them in this forum. Then I scanned just one page of each which seemed the most important but again didnt seem to work . Edwin letter uploaded OK
It was Sue who gently reminded you.
May I mention though that you have not answered the question I had asked about the terms of payment for the Rockhamption £500 land purchase ...
Basically, I was asking a rhetorical question. I don't need to see your document proof, so no need to attach anything.
JM
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:D
Mr Google is very handy...
https://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/suitcase-full-of-history/2840615/
Edwin's granddaughter Amy and her husband (who died in 1948) had lived in a house in Rockampton..... and Amy had sold the home in 1980 ....
I mention that Qld bdm online index has Amy's 1984 death registration as :
Lilian Amy GRAHAM, daughter of Edwin Robert CARPENTER and Margaret GRAY. #50917.
JM
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Dear JM
Aunty Amys suitcase finding me was an amazing event All due to sheer luck and perseverance of Martin FISHER, of Elders Real Estate , Woombye Qld . This suitcase was left in her house after she died . Was sold and sold again and this suit case got moved too till it eventually found Martin who is into family history . He thought he's have a go and finding someone who was interested in this family and found me Contained many letters ....... everyone in the family wrote to Aunty Amy plus a couple of photos .
Emilypos
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Perhaps that Qld Real Estate Agent with family history penchant also has excellent knowledge to share re the historic conveyancing practices for Queensland.... ;D and may well know how to research the land that Edwin Reuben CARPENTER purchased from a private vendor for £500 back in the 1860s which hopefully will provide you with the answer to your question pose in your topic heading ....
JM
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Hi JM
According the receipts within both legal files he paid cash in pounds sterling
Bye
Emilypos
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Hi JM
According the receipts within both legal files he paid cash in pounds sterling
Bye
Emilypos
Yes, that was legal tender throughout the colonies.
Have you examined the land title deeds to see back to that purchase .... was it mortgaged, or encumbered in some financial way ... if so, who to and what terms/conditions ....
And when it was disposed of by Edwin or his estate, were there encumbrances needing settlement ....
JM
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Hi,
Among the webcasts that the State Library of Queensland provides are four on House Histories…
https://www.slq.qld.gov.au/research-collections/family-history/family-history-webcasts
So, from 1 Jan 1860 (commencement of Queensland) Colonial Secretary’s Office, then from 9 April 1862 Lands and Works Department and then 8 August 1866 … Lands Department
http://www.archivessearch.qld.gov.au/Search/SeriesDetails.aspx?SeriesId=10397
try
www.archivessearch.qld.gov.au/Search/SeriesDetails.aspx?SeriesId=46
and/or
http://www.archivessearch.qld.gov.au/Search/SeriesDetails.aspx?SeriesId=10397
I am not familiar with conveyancing/land title searches etc in Queensland.
JM
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Agh …. FindMyPast has indexes for Crown Land Sales In Qld
1862 for Edwin CARPENTER Deed 3274, Country Land Purchase A Register
Parish of Rockhampton, Southern District, Livingstone County
36 acres, 2 Roods Volume 4, page 313
And also in 1862 for Edwin CARPENTER, Deed 3275, Country Land Purchase A Register
Parish of Rockhampton, Southern District Livingstone County
50 Acres, 2 Roods Volume 4, page 314
And in 1863, Deed 5344 for Edwin CARPENTER, Town Lot B Register
Town of Rockhampton, Parish of Rockhampton, Southern District, Livingstone County
2 Roods Volume 7, page 203
And in 1864 Deed 8847 for Edwin CARPENTER, Town Lot B Register
Town of Rockhampton, Parish of Rockhampton, Southern District, Livingstone County
2 Roods Volume 11, page 31.
JM.
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And in 1863, Deed 5344 for Edwin CARPENTER, Town Lot B Register
Town of Rockhampton, Parish of Rockhampton, Southern District, Livingstone County
2 Roods Volume 7, page 203
And in 1864 Deed 8847 for Edwin CARPENTER, Town Lot B Register
Town of Rockhampton, Parish of Rockhampton, Southern District, Livingstone County
2 Roods Volume 11, page 31.
JM.
I wonder if these 2 Town Lots were the properties referred to here. Nov 1865
"Rents from Mr Carpenter's cottages."
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/51565542
In this advertisement in Melbourne in August 1876, Margaret states "four in family"
They might have beenherself, her son Edwin jnr ( did he smoke tobacco as such was stolen with the gold ring ;)) and her daughters Alice and Amelia.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/200232751
Sue
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:D
Yes, Sue, I think that's likely to be them... :D
Rent helps to produce income :) even if there was no negative gearing write offs :D available...
The Telegraph, 23 June 1882 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/170212821
.... Name of deceased Proprietor - Edwin Carpenter, late of Rockhampton, painter
Allotments: 75 of Section 57, 4 of Section 67, 1 and 2 of Section 69 and 4 of Section 74 .... Town of Rockhampton .... Fee simple, Edwin Robert Carpenter, Eldest Son and heir at law....
So 'late of Rockhampton' ... and thinking about the Grocer in Melbourne and the legal documents from there re the elusive Edwin ... well perhaps it could be 'beyond the seas' as that would be the way to proceed from the Colony of Victoria to the Colony of Queensland in that era .... :)
JM
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I may be way off track, but …. Just in case this is Edwin Reuben CARPENTER of Emilypos’ quest:
US Directories, 1869, Oswego, New York.
Town of Mexico, population of over 4000
‘Below are the names of the town officers, and a complete list of the farmers and property owners, with the post office address of each
John C TAYLOR, Supervisor, Mexico
H.M. BARD, Town Clerk, Mexico
…………………………….. (several columns of names in alphabetical order by surname with a number and then the township …. Mexico or Colosse or Texas or Union Square)
……
Edwin R CARPENTER, 64 Mexico
……
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico,_New_York
JM
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Thanks for trying JM, but this fellow is too old " my" Edwin R CARPENTER was b c1827, Jay Essex Co NY. His father Cyrus and his 3 sisters lived in Brockport, Monroe Co NY Plus a brother allegedly named Darwin , b1823 Jay Essex Co. Other family lived in Guilford VT Alas the good citizens of Jay werent into keeping Vital records till some time later
Edwins sort of stepmother , Jane, came from Oswego area
Family history can have tangled web ..............
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I apologise for butting into this quite late, but I think the original question was - where did he get the money?
Ballarat in 1856, this was not too long after the Eureka Stockade of December 1854. Gold mining was still quite shallow at this time and some lucky parties were able to make their fortune rather easily.
Alternatively, fortunes were made in supplying consumables, liquor, accomodation, transport etc to a rapidly expanding community hell bent on digging and nothing else.
He was a ratepayer in Ballarat in December 1856, perhaps suggesting he came to town already with the money.
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Thanks for trying JM, but this fellow is too old " my" Edwin R CARPENTER was b c1827, Jay Essex Co NY. His father Cyrus and his 3 sisters lived in Brockport, Monroe Co NY Plus a brother allegedly named Darwin , b1823 Jay Essex Co. Other family lived in Guilford VT Alas the good citizens of Jay werent into keeping Vital records till some time later
Edwins sort of stepmother , Jane, came from Oswego area
Family history can have tangled web ..............
Emily, I do not know where I made ANY mention of that chap's age. Please read my post carefully. I particularly noted '64' ... it is the post office address, it is NOT his age.
I may be way off track, but …. Just in case this is Edwin Reuben CARPENTER of Emilypos’ quest:
US Directories, 1869, Oswego, New York.
Town of Mexico, population of over 4000
‘Below are the names of the town officers, and a complete list of the farmers and property owners, with the post office address of each
John C TAYLOR, Supervisor, Mexico
H.M. BARD, Town Clerk, Mexico
…………………………….. (several columns of names in alphabetical order by surname with a number and then the township …. Mexico or Colosse or Texas or Union Square)
……
Edwin R CARPENTER, 64 Mexico
……
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico,_New_York
JM
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A few online attempts have been made to supply a clear and definite death date for Edwin Reuben CARPENTER.
There is discussion of his second marriage too.
I have not located certification of either event, so inconclusive.
One of the two news snips June 1882 I have provided previously and here link again, states clearly deceased
Perhaps the statement deceased was a presumption due to absence and lack of contact.
I do not know enough of the estate laws of the time to suggest this.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/52058864
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/170212821
Sue
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I bought copy of these 2 legal files from QSA a few days ago. Was this info that he'd spent 500 pounds
on land in Rockhampton that set me off on the hunt again. If an inheritance was involved 99% sure it wouldnt have been from his family in America . His grandma died before he was born and grandfather in 1840. Got copy of his will some time ago. His father d in 1872 Will check out his wives family
Bye
Emilypos
How did you go with that will .... or when checking out his wife's family ....
JM
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Excellent point Sue.
He may have died in the US, or en route back to his wife or to Qld .... his son had the Deeds ! :D to the land for those cottages...
If Qld were following the then NSW laws (and perhaps that is likely, it was only hived off in 1859) then they needed to have proof of the death or commence proceedings to have him declared dead under the seven year rule (in order to transfer the deeds to the new name) That would involve action in the Qld Supreme Court - Probate division, with or without a valid will. Without would mean that inheritance laws would stand ... So, from my understanding ... if Edwin was a widower, then the eldest living Son of his valid marriage would inherit all - real estate and personal estate. ADD, assuming INTESTATE...
JM
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Some further thoughts ...
Queensland BDM has a death in 1863 for Edith Janet CARPENTER, parents as Edwin CARPENTER and Margaret LESLIE. #C412, - is this indicating that she was there with her Dad, but not her mum … How old would she have been in 1863 … well, likely she was born in Qld, and so too another sister…
Qld BDM has two births of interest:
1861, Edith Janet, father as Edwin Ruthen CARPENTER and mother as Margaret LESLIE #C805
1863, Helena Anne, father as Edwin CARPENTER and mother as Margaret LESLIE #C1050
So possibly that £500 was from Edwin and Margaret’s trading endeavours in Queensland rather than from Victoria … afterall, :) ;) Margaret definitely needed to be present for those girls births to happen in Queensland...
JM
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1867 Electoral Roll
Edward CARPENTER, Rockhampton, a Freeholder
1868 Electoral Roll
Edward CARPENTER, Rockhampton, a Freeholder
I note that it is likely the Qld electoral rolls were compiled along similar principles to NSW ones... if so, then it was by the local police, asking verbal questions and writing them down for later onforwarding to printers... Edward Carpenter as noted above may have been someone completely unrelated to Edwin or he may be Edwin mis-heard by the recorder... but 1867 and 1868 and not 1869 .... ::)
JM
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Hi,
Melbourne Directory, 1854
CARPENTER, Edwin, Boarding House, 57 Little Bourke street, west.
1866 Sands, Melbourne Directory
CARPENTER, Edwin, Cardigan-street, Carl.
1867 Sands, Melbourne Directory
CARPENTER, Edwin, Cardigan-street, Carl.
1868 Sands, Melbourne Directory
CARPENTER, Edwin, Cardigan-street, Carl.
1869 Sands, Melbourne Directory
Cardigan street, east side.
Earnbank Terrace (appears to be a block of terrace houses on corner of Waterloo and Cardigan street east.
No 7
CARPENTER, Edwin plus six other persons.
1870 Sands, Melbourne Directory
Cardigan street, east side.
Earnbank Terrace (appears to be a block of terrace houses on corner of Waterloo and Cardigan street east.
No 7
CARPENTER, Edwin plus six other persons.
Gerry
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Thanks for trying JM, but this fellow is too old " my" Edwin R CARPENTER was b c1827, Jay Essex Co NY. His father Cyrus and his 2 sisters lived in Brockport, Monroe Co NY Plus a brother allegedly named Darwin , b1823 Jay Essex Co. Other family lived in Guilford VT Alas the good citizens of Jay werent into keeping Vital records till some time later
Edwins sort of stepmother , Jane, came from Oswego area
Family history can have tangled web ..............
My apologies JM for misreading your info on an Edwin CARPENTER living in Mexico, Oswaygo NY. Checked in US 1870 census and there was an Edwin CARPENTER, farmer b NY 1826 plus wife Lousia and son Horatio 21 .CARPENTERs a common surname and are also lots of Edwins Cant be
gg gfather
.
Emilypos
Emily, I do not know where I made ANY mention of that chap's age. Please read my post carefully. I particularly noted '64' ... it is the post office address, it is NOT his age.
I may be way off track, but …. Just in case this is Edwin Reuben CARPENTER of Emilypos’ quest:
US Directories, 1869, Oswego, New York.
Town of Mexico, population of over 4000
‘Below are the names of the town officers, and a complete list of the farmers and property owners, with the post office address of each
John C TAYLOR, Supervisor, Mexico
H.M. BARD, Town Clerk, Mexico
…………………………….. (several columns of names in alphabetical order by surname with a number and then the township …. Mexico or Colosse or Texas or Union Square)
……
Edwin R CARPENTER, 64 Mexico
……
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico,_New_York
JM
Thanks for trying JM, but this fellow is too old " my" Edwin R CARPENTER was b c1827, Jay Essex Co NY. His father Cyrus and his 3 sisters lived in Brockport, Monroe Co NY Plus a brother allegedly named Darwin , b1823 Jay Essex Co. Other family lived in Guilford VT Alas the good citizens of Jay werent into keeping Vital records till some time later
Edwins sort of stepmother , Jane, came from Oswego area
Family history can have tangled web ..............
Emily, I do not know where I made ANY mention of that chap's age. Please read my post carefully. I particularly noted '64' ... it is the post office address, it is NOT his age.
I may be way off track, but …. Just in case this is Edwin Reuben CARPENTER of Emilypos’ quest:
US Directories, 1869, Oswego, New York.
Town of Mexico, population of over 4000
‘Below are the names of the town officers, and a complete list of the farmers and property owners, with the post office address of each
John C TAYLOR, Supervisor, Mexico
H.M. BARD, Town Clerk, Mexico
…………………………….. (several columns of names in alphabetical order by surname with a number and then the township …. Mexico or Colosse or Texas or Union Square)
……
Edwin R CARPENTER, 64 Mexico
……
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico,_New_York
JM
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Hi,
Sands Melbourne Directory 1875
CARPENTER, Margaret, grocer, 26 Elgin-street, Carl.
Gerry
Added: This was on the corner of Elgin and Cardigan Street east side.
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Hi Gerry,
The findings for Edwin CARPENTER in 1854 and 1866 to 1870 are very enlightening. ;D. The 1875 one for Margaret as a grocer, we had further back in the topic.
It shows his activity from the time he nominated an agent for his property in Qld, 1865 through a move back to Melbourne and an assumed departure for USA between 1870 and 1872, (when the letter was dated)
As well, we see his accommodation in1854 before the move to Ballarat.
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Edwin Married 12 Nov 1853 in Melbourne to Margaret LESLIE , migrant from Aberdeen per CHANCE 26 Oct 1852 This ship was quarantined for 3 weeks .
Andrew Jackson BARNEY was a 3rd Cousin of Edwin. He arrived in Melbourne per New Orleans 1 May 1853 . Andrew got naturalised in 1901
These 2 were in Ballarat around the same time period . Never been able confirm whether they knew each other.
I have an unconfirmed note the Edwin CARPENTER sailed back to the US from Sydney per Gold Sea 17 Jul 1869 to San Francisco. He had his photo taken by John T GORUS in Sydney
This Gold sea ship arrived in Sydney from London 20 May 1869
I have a photo of Margaret CARPENTERs grocers shop in Carlton. Some 20 + years ago while down in Melbourne I checked and this building had quite distinctive chimneys pots and was still there.
Bye
Emilypos
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I have an unconfirmed note the Edwin CARPENTER sailed back to the US from Sydney per Gold Sea 17 Jul 1869 to San Francisco. He had his photo taken by John T GORUS in Sydney
This Gold sea ship arrived in Sydney from London 20 May 1869
Emilypos
Golden Seas was cleared for departure July 21st 1869 and projected departure to be July 22nd 1869 from Sydney.
I do not see his name on this passenger list, but he was possibly one of the 10 in steerage.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/60891830
During the previous month or so before departure, there had been a good deal of advertising about the fine saloon accommodation on board. Taking bookings now for San Francisco
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13178894
Sue
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Edward CARPENTER on board Wonga Wonga out of Melbourne to Sydney July 1869
http://marinersandships.com.au/1869/07/media/005won.gif steerage up the coast :) that is a trip in itself. Many moons ago I sailed in Sydney Hobart and back up to Lake Macquarie.... the sea is very rough there. I have sailed Auckland to Hawaii .... the sea up off NSW coast far far far worse. If you can make that under sail, with your tummy in tact - you can sail anywhere....
Also, Edward and Edwin when said 'aloud' as Edwin Carpenter or as Edward Carpenter ... would sound the same as each other to those selling the ticket at the docks and then writing it down on a document facing them .... no proof of identity required in 1869 and unlikely the passengers would read handwriting 'upside down'.
JM PS ... as an aside ... after my experience down to Hobart and back ... I reckon I can sail 'anywhere'
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I apologise for butting into this quite late, but I think the original question was - where did he get the money?
Ballarat in 1856, this was not too long after the Eureka Stockade of December 1854. Gold mining was still quite shallow at this time and some lucky parties were able to make their fortune rather easily.
Alternatively, fortunes were made in supplying consumables, liquor, accomodation, transport etc to a rapidly expanding community hell bent on digging and nothing else.
He was a ratepayer in Ballarat in December 1856, perhaps suggesting he came to town already with the money.
Can I just mention that mirl's thoughts about him arriving with funds on hand ... they are excellent.
JM
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Some thoughts …. Re how to find further info about Edwin Reuben and when/where he died …
.......
Alice Leslie CARPENTER, born Essendon Victoria 22 August 1856, was baptised 1 April 1880 at St Thomas, Essendon and the indexed transcript has that she provided the clergy with the following info about her parents:
Mother: Margaret AITKEN
Father: Edwin Rashan CARPENTER
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTZP-8VQ
GS film 1238887
I notice that the VICBDM has this birth registered for 1856, with reference # 8477, but with Margaret LESLIE as mother and Edwin CARPENTER as father.
Do you have copy of that birth rego, if so, which parent registered it, and what information did they provide about Edwin Reuben Carpenter and about Margaret LESLIE …
I can see that Alice Leslie CARPENTER married Richard James LARNACH in 1879 as per Vic BDM online index (#3199) …
Do you have a copy of that marriage, if so what information does Alice give about her father? Does the registration note that Alice’s mum is deceased? Was the marriage ceremony at St Thomas? Who were the witnesses?
........
Margaret CARPENTER Vic BDM d.c. in 1877 #7387
The index has her mother’s NEE name as AITKIN and her father as William LESLIE - does this d.c. show Margaret as a Widow? How does it note Edwin? Who was the informant?
......
Edwin Robert CARPENTER Vic BDM m.c. in 1881 #4648
The index has Edwin marrying Margaret GRAY …. What information did Edwin provide about his father? Does he mention his mother as deceased … How does the information about his parents compare with the information Alice provided about her parents when she married?
:) :) :) So, what depths of detail was being given by Edwin Robert (who inherited) and Alice Leslie when they were providing information to clergy about their parents … (remembering Alice gave info when being baptised that her mum was AIKEN … when it seems likely that AIKEN was Alice’s Mum’s Mum. Well at least that’s how I would interpret the INDEX info, but it is only INDEX info rather than the actual document :D – )
Sorry for all the questions ... :D
JM
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No such things as silly questions . Have asked a few myself in the past few days
See https://tinyurl.com/y4swp5h2
This gives quite a deal of info
I have Margaret CARPENTERs death cert. . States she was a housewife, dau of Wm LESLIE, Blacksmith & Jean AITKEN. Married to Edwin Reuben CARPENTER . Have Alice Leslie CARPENTER birth cert, Dau of Edwin CARPENTER, 27 , farmer, Brockport USA Margaret LESLIE ,25 Aberdeen . This doc also says married July 1853 Melbourne ....... Thats wrong . Have copy .... married Free Church manse 12 Nov 1853. He was 25 ,son Cyrus & Hannah Jenney CARPENTER , she was 21 dau Wm LESLIE Blacksmith & Jean AITKEN
They had twin boys Feb 1867 who didnt survive . . Their death cert gives her maiden name as
ALEXANDER and Edwin occ as saw mill owner
Dont have CARPENTER LARNACH m cert
Have Cyrus Alexanders birth cert 1868 , that gives his fathers place of birth as Vermont . Not correct.
Do have a couple of 'muddled up all over the place' family histories written by 2 of Edwins grand daughters
Have copy of a declaration by Edwin Robert prior to his marriage 29 Nov 1881 that he was son of Edwin CARPENTER of place unknown
Think you need to take more than a pinch of salt sometimes to weigh up info on many BDM certs
Hope I've answered all
Bye
Emilypos
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Hi,
I think you need to consider establishing who knew what about Edwin Reuben at what point in time .... and to think about the eldest son and possible benefits to him in claiming deeds to Rockhampton properties .... what had been happening to the rent in the weeks, months before ... collected ....so who received it ... and where were they .... USA or local or in VIC ...
Alice should have known that her middle name was her own mum's nee name .... so who was the informant, and ...
Why would Alice need to be baptised some time AFTER her own marriage .... and ...
There are many loose ends that you can follow up, of course .... who registered the 1868 birth ....
Have you considered a thread on the USA board?
JM
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Hi Emily,
I wonder if you could confirm a point on Margaret's death certificate where it requires children of the marriage living and deceased.
Are the twins John and Charles, who were born and died 1867, listed there?
OR
Can you confirm that you are reassured by the information on these twin's birth certificates that they are the children of your couple.
It is a very odd indexing :o
Sue
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Hi Sue
I have copy of the twins birth and death certs........ premature births . 101% sure its gg gparents offspring . Hopefully file attachment worked
Why its got ALEXANDER as her maiden name is a mystery. But then it also states they married in 1854 when it was 12 Nov 1853 and his place of birth as Jay Vermont.......... No, Jay is in Essex Co NY State. Like I said before you sometimes need more than a grain of salt with some BDM cert info
Edwin & Margaret had their last child , Cyrus Alexander, the following year. Were 4 fairly closely related Alexander LESLIES in Margarets family. Her father was William LESLIE . Edwins father & grandfather were Cyrus' . Re scanned this birth cert as was too big before
Bye
Emilypos
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Hi,
Death of Edwin Robert CARPENTER in Rockhampton in 1932.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/70296603?searchTerm=
Gerry
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So, who was the informant on the birth certs for the twins...
JM
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So, who was the informant on the birth certs for the twins...
JM
And, Sue has logged out, but I see her post about a sawmill has landed on a different thread on the Australia board, when it ought to have landed on this thread ...
Iwas puzzled by the reference to a sawmill ;D
Hence the question above regarding the certification details
However...
This news item will interest you and answer your original question too.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/52977971
Sue
Well Found Sue
JM
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Birth Certificate document that you have attached
14 Feb 1867
Place of birth: Cardigan Street Carlton
Name: Charles, elder of twins
Father: Edwin CARPENTER, saw mill owner, (age) 36, (place of birth) Jay Vermont, United States
Mother: Margaret CARPENTER, formerly ALEXANDER (age) 34, (place of birth) Aberdeen
Previous Issue: Edwin 12, Alice 10, Amelia 8, Helena 3
Marriage: Melbourne 1854
Name: John, younger of twins
Father: Edwin CARPENTER, saw mill owner, (age) 36, (place of birth) Jay Vermont, United States
Mother: Margaret CARPENTER, formerly ALEXANDER (age) 34, (place of birth) Aberdeen
Previous Issue: Edwin 12, Alice 10, Amelia 8, Helena 3
Marriage: Melbourne 1854
For birth of John, and presumably to indicate if child is present, it has....... "not"
For birth of Charles, and presumably to indicate if child is present, ......nothing written...blank...
Is there more of this document to see?.....name of informant, date of registration etc......
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I posted this snip on the wrong topic.
Apologies.
Here it is and I believe it will help answer some questions and to clarify the reference to Edwin being a Sawmill owner.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/52977971
Sue
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file attached other half of twins birth cert........... Their father registered their births and their deaths 14th & 16th Feb. Incidently Edwin was more 40 years old then 36 in 1867
I knew he got a commision to build long low bridge over swampy land . Unsure of what his profit might have been from 500 pounds
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I knew he got a commision to build long low bridge over swampy land . Unsure of what his profit might have been from 500 pounds
Your original post made no mention of your knowledge of that contract in that exact amount .... so many RChatters have contributed comments, suggestions, posed questions, searched indexes, online and offline, gone through Trove, and other online newspapers, to try to answer your original question about where he got the money ....
JM
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I knew he got a commision to build long low bridge over swampy land . Unsure of what his profit might have been from 500 pounds
Emily,
I think I do not understand your point here regarding a profit on 500 pounds.
Although you knew of the contract, had you not considered that the funds for the purchase of his farm land ( the initial query of your thread) arose from hard work and success during the first 2 years of his residency in Rockhampton?
Sue
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Following on from Sue and in 1863 he SOLD the sawmill .... so he had funds ... did not need to rob a bank ....
JM
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Following on from Sue and in 1863 he SOLD the sawmill .... so he had funds ... did not need to rob a bank ....
JM
And as a result of this sale, was able to purchase land and build the cottages known as Mr Carpenter's cottages. These are referred to in previous replies when agents were appointed to collect the rent due to him from them in his absence from QLD.
Sue
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Hi JM,
According to information sourced some time ago from the Rockhampton & District Historical Society Edwin sold this saw mill to Munro & Co in 1864 and the family returned to Melbourne
Have been researching this family for some years and over time got a picture of their situation . They werent poor but not wealthy at all. When I bought copy of those 2 legal files from QSA Brisbane recently. . Have been to QSA Brisbane several times as has a 2nd cousin we didnt know of the existence previously of these 2 legal files. And I was really surprised to find out Edwin had spent 500 pounds on land . Knew he had bought land but not what he's spent . My reaction was 'good lord did he rob a bank"
Certainly had no intention to mislead in any way
I had a look at Rootschat USA Will check out later when have more spare time
Emilypos
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Please, consider to read back through the entire thread with a view to decide if you want to follow up any of the suggestions made ..... including perhaps asking the chap that passed you that suitcase .... he would likely have good working knowledge of Qld conveyancing ..... I suggest that the Historical Society would likely have based their comments to your enquiry on newspaper reports and perhaps rates books etc.
JM
Hi JM,
According to information sourced some time ago from the Rockhampton & District Historical Society Edwin sold this saw mill to Munro & Co in 1864 and the family returned to Melbourne
Have been researching this family for some years and over time got a picture of their situation . They werent poor but not wealthy at all. When I bought copy of those 2 legal files from QSA Brisbane recently. . Have been to QSA Brisbane several times as has a 2nd cousin we didnt know of the existence previously of these 2 legal files. And I was really surprised to find out Edwin had spent 500 pounds on land . Knew he had bought land but not what he's spent . My reaction was 'good lord did he rob a bank"
Certainly had no intention to mislead in any way
I had a look at Rootschat USA Will check out later when have more spare time
Emilypos
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Hi,
From a newspaper of the day Edwin imported his steam sawmill on the "Jenny Lind" in December 1861, he had a contract to supply timer on the Dawson Road at Yeppen Yeppen at Rockhampton.
Rockhampton Bulletin and Central Queensland Advertiser, Sat, 14th December 1861, page 4.
Gerry
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. ... ...But then it also states they married in 1854 when it was 12 Nov 1853 and his place of birth as Jay Vermont.......... No, Jay is in Essex Co NY State. Like I said before you sometimes need more than a grain of salt with some BDM cert info
.........
Errrrr ..... google says there is a place called JAY in VERMONT ....
JM
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Hi,
A snippet from the Rockhampton Bulletin and Central Queensland Advertiser, Sat, 5th April 1862, page 2.
Under the heading LATE STORM.
"The water at Yeppen Yeppen rose eighteen feet above its ordinary level. The steam saw mills and dwelling house of Mr Carpenter were completely submerged"
Gerry
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Great find Gerry.
I guess the bridge held firm, so too the home. I read that Vermont is famous for its 19th century wooden bridges .. perhaps ERC came to VIC with a sound knowledge of the construction craft skills
JM
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Yeppen Yeppen Lagoon is on the South side of Rockhampton, the Capricorn Highway meets up with the Bruce Highway and heads into Rockhampton past the Yeppen Yeppen Lagoon. Only recently there have been major highway upgrades again to overcome the flooding from that low area.
The question we need to ask is what attracted Edwin to Rockhampton?
Gerry
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Yeppen Yeppen Lagoon is on the South side of Rockhampton, the Capricorn Highway meets up with the Bruce Highway and heads into Rockhampton past the Yeppen Yeppen Lagoon. Only recently there have been major highway upgrades again to overcome the flooding from that low area.
The question we need to ask is what attracted Edwin to Rockhampton?
Gerry
Here is a possible reason for removing from Snake Valley .... a ferocious dog flew at and bit a man named Edwin Carpenter on the arm .... but it is June 1861 ... so was Edwin Carpenter travelling back and forth from Rockhampton to Ballarat .... or was there more than one chap named Edwin Carpenter in Ballarat :) ...
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/66339938 15 June 1861 The Star.
JM
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Yes, there was more than one at one stage.
The other one died in 1890 aged 72 in Ballarat. Parents George and Maria (UK) #10500.
I checked his burial etc the other day.
Last address the Benevolent Home, Ballarat and interred Ballarat in Open Ground Location Unknown
Sue
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Thanks Sue, that sorts that and some other Trove possibles too, then.
JM