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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Justin Holcroft on Thursday 14 March 19 11:16 GMT (UK)
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Hi there, looking for help: my father-in-law, CE "Eddie" Owtram, was adopted by CEC and MI Owtram some time in the 30's to 50's, having been born Mondone in the Seychelles. I know the three of them left the UK on the ship Llanstephan Castle in 1954 to emigrate to Kenya, after which they finally arrived in South Africa sometime, I believe, in the 60's - Eddie married, divorced, married my wife's mother, divorced and married again, producing in total 6 children, before passing away in 2012. We know all the kids but are desperate to find out whether CEC and MI Owtram ever got UK citizenship for their adopted son - this would make a huge difference to my wife as we are trying to move to the UK at the moment.
Anybody any ideas how I could go about finding out? Thanks so much in advance!
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Do you know if he had a British passport?
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Is this CEC who you mention, I can't see a birth in England for this person or a marriage
Death Mar qtr 1967
Owtram Charles E C age 64
Reading 6a 160
You seem unsure about when he was adopted by CEC & MI - Have you found the family on the 1939 register
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Is exactly what I'm trying to find out ;D
By the time we started piecing everything about his life together, we were only aware of his South African citizenship. He was an absolute master at compartmentalising his past, evidenced by the fact that his first family only found out about his third wife at his funeral.... ;D
We are trying to find out if my wife qualifies for UK citizenship either directly or through double descent...would make our move to the UK so much easier
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Looks like C Owtram in Kenya in 1925; on the list of European jurors in the Kenya Gazette (15th April 1925), from Rongai.
As far as I can see not on 1939 Register (which would make sense if in Kenya by 1925)
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Hi Rosie99, and thanks: we think that CEC spent most of his life in Kenya - there is a record of him leaving the UK for Mombasa in 1922. Can't find him or MI on the 39 register. Not sure but we believe MI - known as Imelda - was originally French (just to confuse things further ;D)
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There is passenger list in 1955 which states Charles Edward Owtram bn 1902 occ a Civil servant. Travelling with him were his wife Marie Imelda and a daughter who was born in 1945 - no mention of a the younger CE. They were travelling to Mombassa
ADDED There is a 1951 list that mentions 10 year old Master CE
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This might help, as might the links within it:
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/contact-us/request-a-search-for-a-certificate-of-british-citizenship-1949-1986/
and this:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/naturalisation-british-citizenship/
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Rosie99 that's a new one....all I have seen is CEC and Marie Imelda leaving on the Llanstephan Castle in 1951 - the plot thickens...
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Thanks GrahamSimons - have fired off a request!
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There is passenger list in 1955 which states Charles Edward Owtram bn 1902 occ a Civil servant. Travelling with him were his wife Marie Imelda and a daughter who was born in 1945 - no mention of a the younger CE. They were travelling to Mombassa
ADDED There is a 1951 list that mentions 10 year old Master CE
Master CE is the one we are looking for!
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There’s an incoming passenger list arriving London April 1951 with mum and dad on one page and 2 children on the second eldest child Charles E aged 10. They have come from Uganda. Maybe Charles stayed in the UK for school. An address in Rye Sussex is given.
In August 1951 the whole family are travelling back to Uganda leaving the ship at Mombasa.
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There’s an incoming passenger list arriving London April 1951 with mum and dad on one page and 2 children on the second eldest child Charles E aged 10. They have come from Uganda. Maybe Charles stayed in the UK for school. An address in Rye Sussex is given.
Looks like a possible 3-year stay in the UK....so my wife's grandparents on her father's side would definitely seem to be UK citizens: which just now begs the double-descent question....thanks!
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There’s an incoming passenger list arriving London April 1951 with mum and dad on one page and 2 children on the second eldest child Charles E aged 10. They have come from Uganda. Maybe Charles stayed in the UK for school. An address in Rye Sussex is given.
I had also wondered whether he was likely to be schooled in England however they all returned to Mombasa in August of that year.
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The 1922 travel record shows the address as Farnham, Surrey. Occupation Clerk.
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I think they must have just been on an extended stay in the UK as they return to Uganda after 5 months.
Do you have a marriage certificate for the father and if yes does it give any other useful information?
On the passenger list coming into London in 1955 it asks for the country of which a citizen is shown on passport if citizen of UK show country in passport issued. Charles Edward his wife Marie Imelda and daughter all give UK/Uganda which I think means that they are all UK citizens but their passports were issued in Uganda. Unfortunately Charles the son isn’t with them.
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In the 1911 census there is a Charles Owtram born 1903. Now what intrigues me is what has been put in the Birth place column. It says New Zealand Auckland Resident.
I would assume from that that Charles lived there but wasn't born there. What does anyone else think.
Address is The Red House Haslemere, Haslemere, Surrey - Head of household is a schoolmaster.
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There are some online trees showing Charles born New Zealand
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I can't access this record on Ancestry
New Zealand, Birth Index, 1840-1950
Charles Edward Clifford Owtram
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Born in New Zealand:-
1902/5703 Owtram Charles Edward Clifford Edith Jamie Noel Godfrey -
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Thank you GG ;D
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Father Noel's baptism
First name(s) Noel Godfrey
Last name Owtram
Birth year 1871
Birth date 16 Dec 1871
Baptism year 1872
Baptism date 15 Feb 1872
Baptism place Surbiton Christ Church
Relationship Son
Father's first name(s) Charles Henry
Mother's first name(s) Lucy
Parent's occupation Gentleman
Residence Surbiton
County Surrey
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ok now we are getting seriously complicated!!!! Thanks all so far - please keep feeding me!
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Passenger list for Noel and 2 children 1906
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-X95S-7TZ?i=2&cc=1609792
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There’s a tree on Ancestry with a lot of information on it about the family.
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Noel's birth record
OWTRAM, NOEL GODFREY SMITH
GRO Reference: 1872 M Quarter in KINGSTON Volume 02A Page 285
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Lucy and Charles' marriage
Marriages Jun 1864
Outram Charles Henry Worksop 7b 42
Smith Lucy Worksop 7b 42
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I wonder if CE was officially adopted. I presume that this search really depends on the results of your application re British Citizenship.
Lets us know when you hear from them.
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Just musing CEC died in the UK so he would have had a passport to enter the country, the passport would have had to be cancelled or would have run out so presumably if it was a UK passport there would hopefully be a record of it.
Presumablythere must be some records somewhere of the son CE who is travelling in the 1950s on a UK passport issued in Uganda.
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Update having just spoken to my wife in more detail....Eddie was in fact Marie Imelda's biological son, the father having been Mondone in the Seychelles. CEC married her after Eddie's birth so presumably both Marie Imelda and Eddie will have got citizenship by dint of the marriage - any thoughts anyone?
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I don't know for sure but if Eddie was Marie Imelda's son he could only have become a British citizen if he was formally adopted. Otherwise he would have the nationality of Marie or Mondone.
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Probably not that straightforward Justin :-\
Have you searched the different catagories on this link given to you earlier
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/naturalisation-british-citizenship/
Section 5 onwards - Many can be searched by name followed by nat*
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Probably not that straightforward Justin :-\
Have you searched the different catagories on this link given to you earlier
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/naturalisation-british-citizenship/
Section 5 onwards - Many can be searched by name followed by nat*
I know...it never is ::)
Have searched but no result for Eddie. Have, however, found a marriage record for Marie Imelda Owtram in Plymouth in 1970: CEC died in 1967 or 8, so it seems she married again - We know she was living in Plymouth as one of the children from the first marriage visited her there in 2009.
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Did 'Eddie' return to England.
I can see CEC & MI in Berkshire in the 1960's and the daughter appears to have married in the UK.
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no Eddie stayed in South Africa...married three times and had in total 6 kids, all of whom we know
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The daughter's name was Avril
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Avril married in 1963. I won't put details as she was born in 1945 and could still be alive.
Two children from the marriage.
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Avril married in 1963. I won't put details as she was born in 1945 and could still be alive.
Two children from the marriage.
thanks GG - just found that as well
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I did not post her name as I found her on electoral registers for 2016, we should not post names of possibly living people
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Is Marie Imelda’s maiden name known? Perhaps she is the one you need to chasing to see if she was a British citizen.
If you buy her marriage certificate for the second marriage that would give you her maiden name and her father’s name which might help to find her birth and the place of birth.
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Is Marie Imelda’s maiden name known? Perhaps she is the one you need to chasing to see if she was a British citizen.
If you buy her marriage certificate for the second marriage that would give you her maiden name and her father’s name which might help to find her birth and the place of birth.
Don't know but we are seeing one of my wife's half-brothers on Saturday and he may know....She was most definitely French, though whether roots French or Seychelles French I'm not sure
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This may have been mentioned already, but every little bit helps!
The probate for Charles Edward Clifford gives an address of 20 West Street, Newbury, Berskshire, and two years prior, in 1965 there is an electoral list showing both Charles and Marie I at 20 West St. Newbury, eligible to vote.
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anybody know whether eligibility to vote indicates citizenship? Seem to remember from my time in Austria you could only vote if you were an Austrian citizen - same for the UK?
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thanks bbart!
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Charles's widow seems to have married again after his death
Marriages Sep 1970
OWTRAM Marie I WOOD Plymouth 7a 2000
WOOD Malcolm OWTRAM Plymouth 7a 2000
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Charles's widow seems to have married again after his death
Marriages Sep 1970
OWTRAM Marie I WOOD Plymouth 7a 2000
WOOD Malcolm OWTRAM Plymouth 7a 2000
yup, picked that up as well....seems to run in the family (and yes, I am going to be extra extra nice to my wife from now on ;D )
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There's an Administration for a Marie Imelda BRISTOW of Plymouth in 1982.
Did she marry again?? There can't be many Marie Imeldas around.
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This is her death registration which gives a date of birth
Deaths Jun 1982
BRISTOW MARIE IMELDA 6SE1917 LANCASTER 40 1542
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There's an Administration for a Marie Imelda BRISTOW of Plymouth in 1982.
Did she marry again?? There can't be many Marie Imeldas around.
I wouldn't be surprised....what is an administration? sorry, probably really thdooopid question, but I haven't been in the UK since 1989...
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A brief explanation or not! ;D
The person dealing with the estate of the person who has died is called an executor or an administrator. An executor is someone who is named in the will as responsible for dealing with the estate. An executor may have to apply for a special legal authority before they can deal with the estate. This is called probate.
An administrator is someone who is responsible for dealing with an estate under certain circumstances, for example, if there is no will or the named executors aren't willing to act. An administrator has to apply for letters of administration before they can deal with an estate.
Although there are some exceptions, it is usually against the law for you to start sharing out the estate or to get money from the estate, until you have probate or letters of administration.
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Not finding any marriage for Marie to a Bristow.
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A Marie I. Helsby married a Henry J. Bristow in Manchester Mar.qtr.1942 - he appears to be Henry James Bristow b.1910 who died in Sept.2006 Plymouth. Since she seems to have remained a Bristow until her death in 1982 don't see how she can be 'your' Marie who was Owtram in 1950's.
Annette
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At the time of her death she was living at Beaconfield, Seymour Road, Mannamead, Plymouth.
You could try and locate an electoral roll for that address in 1982 or a bit before and see who was living there. Just Marie or someone else as well?
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It probably is the Helsby one - this looks to be her birth registration
Births Dec 1917
Helsby Marie I Feeney Chorlton 8c 919
May have been registered a bit late so went into the December quarter.
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Looks like she can be eliminated.
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And our Marie Imelda was still alive up to 2010 as far as we know...my wife's half-sister visited her in Plymouth in 2009
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Marie seems to be on the electoral roll right up to 2012 so presumably still alive up to then.
GRO Indexes post 2006:-
Find index reference numbers in person
You can also search for index reference numbers for free at:
• Library of Birmingham
• Bridgend Local and Family History Centre
• City of Westminster Archives Centre
• Manchester Central Library
• Newcastle City Library
• Plymouth Central Library
• The British Library (you’ll need to register first)
These are the only complete copies of the full sets of index reference numbers. They’re on microfiche.
If you want to see if Marie died after 2012 you would need to visit one of the above places to search the death index.
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And our Marie Imelda was still alive up to 2010 as far as we know...my wife's half-sister visited her in Plymouth in 2009
Send the half sister back to visit and have her ransack the place for Marie's birth certificate.
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And our Marie Imelda was still alive up to 2010 as far as we know...my wife's half-sister visited her in Plymouth in 2009
Send the half sister back to visit and have her ransack the place for Marie's birth certificate.
;D or I'll just smuggle my wife into the UK in my suitcase and we'll go ourselves ;)
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That would certainly be easier! ;D
I have been kicking the UK Archives to spit out Marie's passport, and finally came to the conclusion that the "search name" is just there to drive you insane.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/passports/
I thought knowing what date she was on a ship, it would be an easy hunt, but I suppose you have to go to Kew in person, or pay a fortune for them to hunt....
Take a look though, I may have missed some obvious thing.
There is also a brief explanation of when people born in the Colonies started needing passports and other tidbits.
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That would certainly be easier! ;D
I have been kicking the UK Archives to spit out Marie's passport, and finally came to the conclusion that the "search name" is just there to drive you insane.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/passports/
I thought knowing what date she was on a ship, it would be an easy hunt, but I suppose you have to go to Kew in person, or pay a fortune for them to hunt....
Take a look though, I may have missed some obvious thing.
There is also a brief explanation of when people born in the Colonies started needing passports and other tidbits.
Thanks so much - it does look like going to Kew or forking out will be the next possible step....Still fixated by the electoral register thing though...What does seem fairly sure is that my wife's grandfather, CEC, was a British citizen, so we now have a chance at least of the double descent visa route
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anybody know whether eligibility to vote indicates citizenship? Seem to remember from my time in Austria you could only vote if you were an Austrian citizen - same for the UK?
Complicated and the laws would be different in different countries. In UK Commonwealth citizens can vote, also (but irrelevantly in your case) Irish nationals. EU nationals can't vote for MPs in UK but can vote for MEPs.
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Just to add one of the passenger lists gives a date of birth for MI as 21 Jul 1920.
In the absence of a death certificate you can trawl the probate index to see if any mention there
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills
Do you have proof of the adoption or was it that he just took on 'responsibility' for Eddie when he married.
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In the absence of a death certificate you can trawl the probate index to see if any mention there
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills
Already done this - nothing listed.
Annette
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Are we sure that Marie Imelda has died?
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Not sure no, but if still alive she would be approaching 100
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It is possible that she would not appear on current electoral registers even if she was living. Often the elderly who are probably no longer 'mentally' capable of voting are not entered.