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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: smudgepants on Thursday 14 March 19 18:39 GMT (UK)

Title: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: smudgepants on Thursday 14 March 19 18:39 GMT (UK)
Hi ya, I am wondering if anyone can help me. I am investigating a story about someone that claims he was a British pilot who crashed in France in  1941 by the name of Alfred K Munnings. According to sources this gentleman he was born in a place called Steeple, Dorset. I have launched a search on another forum concerning his career in the RAF but no one can find any details of him in the armed forces. Can info that anyone could give me would much appreciated.

I almost forgot to mentton That do not have any info conerning parents or date of birth.

Cheers,

Alex. 
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: avm228 on Thursday 14 March 19 19:11 GMT (UK)
Where do you find this claim, and what “sources” for his birthplace are you referring to?

Is he said to have survived the crash, or died in it?  There is no matching CWGC record.
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: avm228 on Thursday 14 March 19 19:15 GMT (UK)
Similar query elsewhere:

http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/info-pilot-alfred-k-munningss-time-in-france.75942/
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: smudgepants on Thursday 14 March 19 19:50 GMT (UK)
The WW2talk search is mine, I launched it. The problem I have is that as I do not live in the UK there is very little that I can do as far as checking the archives in Kew or down in Dorset. The 'sources' as I put it is a friend of mine who lives in that area. He gave me the original typed document which is reputed to be part of the memoires of Mr Munnings. In it there is talk of the body of a dead pilot in the forest of Lyons. There is some very accurate information concerning locations in the document including a had drawn map.

I am envolved in a project where by we want erect a memorial to honour the crew of an RAF bomber that crashed in the area, three soldiers that died not far and when this document surfaced we decided to see if we could verify this story and see if we can find out the name of the dead pilot. Once we have his name (if ever why find it) it would be added to the memorial which is due to be unveilled on June 29th.

I know some of the people on the WW2 forum have trouble believing this story but as I say the hand drawn map is accurate and can only be done by someone who has been there as it is not common knowledge. I have also other pieces of information that my friend has been able to find about Mr Munning's return visit in 1995 concerning knowledge of at least one plane crash that is not common knowledge yet. This crash is something that I have known about for a few years but there is no information available to tourists.

All I am looking for on this forum is information concerning Mr Munnings, I am looking for something that may prove that he infact excisted. My friend has been to local pubs in the area and asked around and people have said that Mr Munnings was in the forces but they could not say more. 

Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: smudgepants on Thursday 14 March 19 19:53 GMT (UK)
I feel that if I can get information on his birth then I might be able to get other information. Unfortunately I do not know when Alfred Munnings died or where.
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: CaroleW on Thursday 14 March 19 20:02 GMT (UK)
There is no birth for an Alfred K Munnings in Dorset  and no marriage or death in England,  Scotland or Wales.

There is no Munnings marriage for likely parents in Dorset in a timescale for his birth.  If he served  in WW2 we are looking at a birth from approx 1905 - 1920

Is there any date on the document to give a clue as to when it was written?

Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: CaroleW on Thursday 14 March 19 20:12 GMT (UK)
Is it a definite K for his middle name?   Seems strange he hasn't used his full middle name in some part of the document given they are his memoirs. 

Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: smudgepants on Thursday 14 March 19 21:30 GMT (UK)
Carole, I have had a look again at the document and the name is clearly marked as Alfred K Munnings. It says also that it was compiled in 1995 by Alfred Munnings and his son Gerald.
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: CaroleW on Thursday 14 March 19 23:09 GMT (UK)
No birth, marriage or death for a Gerald Munnings
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: avm228 on Thursday 14 March 19 23:17 GMT (UK)
On the other thread the military experts seem to have concluded that his account of the wartime events could not have been true.  You may have to contemplate the possibility that the names aren’t genuine either.
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: CaroleW on Thursday 14 March 19 23:24 GMT (UK)
Quote
I have also other pieces of information that my friend has been able to find about Mr Munning's return visit in 1995

The year of his memoirs - by which time he would be between 75 and 90. 

Given the lack of documentary evidence of his existence - whilst I can't comment on the content/veracity of whatever info is in the document - I agree with the comments above re: false identity
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: smudgepants on Saturday 16 March 19 12:58 GMT (UK)
This is really bizzare! Because the document I have has the names Alfred K Munnings and Gerald Munnings and my friend went to see a Julian Munnings who is apparently Mr Munnings's son. He also visited a local pub and both Jullian and Alfred are known there. 
 
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: CaroleW on Saturday 16 March 19 13:14 GMT (UK)
Have you found a birth or marriage registration for Julian Munnings because I haven't

When and where did your friend's visits take place?

So we have no birth or marriages in England/Wales for any of the 3 Munnings you mention
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: lizdb on Saturday 16 March 19 13:18 GMT (UK)
The only Munnings I can find in Dorset are a John and Ellen who have a daughter Alfreda!!! She was born 1910 mmn Rideout.   Have looked though gro index for siblings, cant see and Alfred.
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 16 March 19 14:09 GMT (UK)
I have launched a search on another forum concerning his career in the RAF but no one can find any details of him in the armed forces.

Wouldn't his service records still be with the MOD
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: lizdb on Saturday 16 March 19 14:50 GMT (UK)
I have just looked through the post and replies on the other forum (link avm gave)


On there you say his name is Munings, rather than Munnings and that he was born Tyneham, no mention of Steeple!!


There were some suggestions on there, one being to follow up what you said about the paper having an article in 1995.  Did you find that article?  I am sure the relevant Record Office will have records.

All the obvious ideas were covered on that thread - someone had even found the Alfreda I found earlier!  We are not likely to find anything that wasn't found there.

So - you need to go back to the "friend" who met the Julian and went to the pub where they were known, and get some more facts.   Where was this? When was this? Is he/she in touch with Julian or Gerald? If they are so well known at the pub, why not write to the landlord and ask him to pass on a letter to Julian or Gerald asking them to get in touch with you as you are interested in their father/grandfathers story?

What other sources have you got, other than the article - by this I mean that on the other thread you said "you had now heard there was a newspaper article in 1995 ...." who did you hear this from?  How did you hear of Gerald and Julian - they arent in the original writings by Alfred ....

far too many unknowns at the moment - suggestions based on what IS known are on the other thread, for any new suggestions we need more info, and I think you are the only one with the links to ....well to whoever gives you the info .......who can find it out!!

Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: CaroleW on Saturday 16 March 19 16:15 GMT (UK)
Munning(s) Muning(s) Manning(s) we have tried them all and drawn a blank as far as BMD’s go for either Alfred K,  Gerald or Julian.

I’m sure I’m not the only one who finds it rather odd that 3 generations cannot be found on the BMD indexes etc.  Is Munnings perhaps an anglicised version of a foreign surname and BMD’s are under the foreign version?

I agree with the comments made by Liz above and also asked in my reply 12 as to where and when the meetings with Gerald/Julian took place.

Liz has made a good suggestion about writing to the pub where they are apparently well known and in the absence of any other evidence of their existence I can’t see any other way for you to proceed
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: smudgepants on Saturday 16 March 19 20:59 GMT (UK)
This is all very odd, the story/memoires that I posted on the other site included maps, I have been to two of the places not known by the public and the maps are very, very accurate. I don't believe that my friend would lie to me at all.There is even mention of a Wolf attack in his story and I have confirmed with a local to the area of Alges that the map is 100% correct! I don't understand this at all!! 

I know someone who lives near the archives in Kew and I am going to ask him to check the Squadron's log book. This person that calls himself Munnings says that he crashed in June 1941.. Surely there will be a list of pilots names that fllew and never returned.

I thank everyone for all there help and I hope this is not some wild goose chase.   

Concerning the Dorset Echo my friend was not able to find any article printed in 1995 at the Dorset History Centre.

My problem is that as I don't live in the UK it is difficult to check out the archives etc myself.     
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: CaroleW on Saturday 16 March 19 21:29 GMT (UK)
http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/info-pilot-alfred-k-munningss-time-in-france.75942/

I think the opinions expressed on that site are the same as my own but put more forcefully. 

I don't think Mr Munnings ever existed or,  like many "authors" - he is using a pseudonym.

But why use a pseudonym if you are writing about your own experiences and they are truthful??

If Alfred K Munnings was alive in 1995 - why is there no death for him after that date?

Up to 1937 Wareham was the Reg District for Tyneham and the only Alfred K birth there was surname Smith in 1915
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: smudgepants on Saturday 16 March 19 22:12 GMT (UK)
I find the issue of the name very odd. I did think of the possibility that the person, if there really was a person who called himself Mr Munnings when his name wasn't Munnings, then why did he do it? Was this name false for a reason, did this person work for inteligence, who knows. Probably not, I just find it all very strange.       
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: CaroleW on Saturday 16 March 19 22:19 GMT (UK)
Quote
did this person work for inteligence

I very much doubt it!! 
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: smudgepants on Saturday 16 March 19 22:26 GMT (UK)
I doubt it to, but why else would they do such a thing unless he didn't want to identified after the war and considered as a coward.
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: CaroleW on Saturday 16 March 19 22:39 GMT (UK)
My reply was in answer to the suggestion he may have been in Intelligence. 

I think you need to take on board the comments/suggestions made both here and on the other site.

Go back to your friend and show him the comments etc and in particular - get details of when and where he met up with Julian or Gerald and the name and location of the pub who knew both Alfred & Julian.  Then take up Liz's suggestion of writing to the pub.

Being a sceptic - like the absence of the newspaper article - I suspect you will also draw a blank at the pub. 
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: smudgepants on Sunday 17 March 19 08:25 GMT (UK)
Carole, all and Liz's suggestions have been taken on board, I will be doing as suggested i.e finding out the name of the pub and writing to them. There are other avenues that I will be going down as well such as contacting the local mairies in the areas he mentions outside of Lyons La Foręt to see what they can dig up.

My friend is fully aware of all the comments on both sites as I am in regular contact wth him and has seen everything. He to is very frustrated and is doing all possible to help.

I pray that this is not a 'fake' story, if it is then I feel that I have not only wasted everyone's time on both sites but that I have wasted my own time. I just understand the problem with the name, if this is not his real name then why use a pseudonym. Is Munnings the figure of someone's imagination, if so, why?     
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: lizdb on Tuesday 19 March 19 12:43 GMT (UK)

My friend is fully aware of all the comments on both sites as I am in regular contact wth him 

And yet we are still short of facts -
When and where was the pub visit
How did anyone know that the Gerald and Julian were linked to this Alfred? Why cant they be contacted again to find out more? (Their own birth years and places, and surnames for example!)
If the friend visited Julian (as in reply#11) he must have had some sort of contact, and knowledge about him.


Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: venelow on Tuesday 19 March 19 17:12 GMT (UK)
Exactly the questions I was thinking of also lizdb. 

For me the wolf attack bit in the account the OP posted on the WW2 site is a big red flag.  Smudge says that he visited the area and spoke to someone who confirmed the wolf attack story.

Was this person a witness to Munnings attempts to save the girl? Or did he just confirm that there was some old story that a girl was attacked by a wolf in a part of France where, by 1940, they were very rare having mostly been exterminated by farmers in the 1930s. A story that could have been repeated in many anecdotes, newspaper stories or histories anytime between 1941 and 1995.

And France was not closed to the outside world between 1945 and 1995. All the details, maps, places etc could have been researched since the war.

Maybe A.K.Munnings was hoping to sell the film rights to his story.

Venelow

Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: JenB on Tuesday 19 March 19 17:26 GMT (UK)
There is now a new reply (# 40) on the WW2 Talk thread referred to earlier, stating that 56 squadron have confirmed no record of this man serving with them.
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: CaroleW on Tuesday 19 March 19 18:18 GMT (UK)
If your friend has seen our comments etc - when is he going to tell you which pub he met them in and when?

There is absolutely no proof that Alfred/Gerald/Julian exist apart from your friends story that he has met Gerald & Julian and verbally had confirmation that Alfred was known in the locality. 

I really think you need to have a very long chat with your friend and get the answers to the questions asked in several replies above
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: smudgepants on Tuesday 19 March 19 19:00 GMT (UK)
Carole, I spoke to my friend on Saturday night and he will be sending me an email with the address details of the pub. Once I get those I will be writing directly to the pub myself. I have been contacted by a member of the family and they have asked me to refrain from contacting Mr Munning's son due to a problem with ill health which I am fully respecting, the last thing I want is to upset the family. 

As there seems to be a real problem in finding any information on a person called Alfred Munnings I am now going to stop researching the name as it is very odd to me that no one can find anything about the name and I don't want to waste people's time.

I am still however going to research this story from another angle which is to try and contact the Mairies (Town Halls) of the areas mentioned in the story to see if they can shed light on the story and see if there is not another name that surfaces.

This afternoon I attended a ceremony to honour the locals who were killed during the Algerian war. After the ceremony I spoke to a gentleman who has been living close to one the areas where this person who called himself Munnings says he stayed. He is now going to arrange that I meet a member of the local resistance group who is still alive who was very active in the exact area in question.   

For me, it has been very frustrating to not have found any concrete evidence of Mr Munnings.

I want to thank everyone here for all your help in this story and if I manage to find anything about this mysterious person  I will let everyone know.   

Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: Ruskie on Tuesday 19 March 19 21:21 GMT (UK)
I have been reading this thread with interest.

Being a bit of a cynic it crossed my mind that the “sons” might be making the whole story up, or perhaps their father spun them a web of fibs which they are perpetuating, or the three of them may have been in cahoots? It is a bit suspicious that no trace of any of the main player’s births can be found, and now one of them is (conveniently?) too ill to be contacted.  :-\

It brings to mind a story written by someone my father in law had a tenuous connection to during WW2. He wrote of his exploits in the Special Branch and as a bodyguard to famous people. Most (or all) of the events were true, but the manner of writing was all very “boy’s own” and enhanced for dramatic effect.

Like others have already suggested, a name change could explain the lack of records about this man, however the surname Munnings is an odd choice if someone was trying to cover their tracks, unless there is some family connection to the surname. The surname seems concentrated around the SE - Suffolk area.

Added: if this seems too harsh an accusation, please ask me, or a moderator, to delete my post. I would not want to wrongly accuse someone especially on a public forum.  ;)

I hope you get to the bottom of it all smudgepants.  :)
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: smudgepants on Tuesday 19 March 19 22:25 GMT (UK)
As there seems to be no information available concerning Mr Munnings I have asked the moderators to please take this thread down as I do not want to cause any form of problems for the family at all. I have oother avenues that I can follow concerning the story which I will persue. I would like to thank everyone for there in this rather strange afair. 
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: rosie99 on Wednesday 20 March 19 07:24 GMT (UK)
It would be a shame to remove this thread as anyone looking for the same information in the future would be able to see what has been posted.  It would be good to have an update as well once you have found more information.
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: Ruskie on Wednesday 20 March 19 09:09 GMT (UK)
It would be a shame to remove this thread as anyone looking for the same information in the future would be able to see what has been posted.  It would be good to have an update as well once you have found more information.

I agree. It would be a shame for those who have put so much effort into the search here, and on the other forum, for it all to be removed. Not at all satisfying.  :)

Regarding the family, I think they may be the ones who can assist the most in this search and hopefully will be able to answer many of the questions people who are trying to help, have been asking. It should not cause them any problems should it?

Just my thoughts on the matter ....  :)
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: CaroleW on Wednesday 20 March 19 13:15 GMT (UK)
I agree.  There is no proof that the son or grandson are still alive (or even exist) so no contravention of RC rules.

It could also be a useful reference if anybody else finds themselves in possession of similar documentation in the future
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: Ruskie on Wednesday 20 March 19 13:26 GMT (UK)
Apologies if I missed mention of it but do we know who, when and where Alfred married?
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: CaroleW on Wednesday 20 March 19 15:32 GMT (UK)
You didn't miss it

There is no birth marriage or death for Alfred K Munnings/Munings/Manning/Mannings - all variations have been exhausted

No birth or marriage for son Gerald
No birth for grandson Julian
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: lizdb on Wednesday 20 March 19 16:00 GMT (UK)
I have been contacted by a member of the family and they have asked me to refrain from contacting Mr Munning's son due to a problem with ill health which I am fully respecting, the last thing I want is to upset the family. 
 

Another member of the family? I know we cant ask name and age and relationship within the family as the person is obviously still living ...but.....

surely if you are in touch with the family then you are in a better position to ask about who Alfred/Gerald/Julian are than we are ?  Did you not ask this "other member" for more details?  Or , when he mentioned "Gerald"s ill health, ask for more about Gerald, for example?
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: CaroleW on Wednesday 20 March 19 20:06 GMT (UK)
As this family are untraceable under Munnings etc how did the family member become aware of your interest?   
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: JenB on Friday 22 March 19 14:04 GMT (UK)
Yet more updates on the other thread http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/info-pilot-alfred-k-munningss-time-in-france.75942/
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 22 March 19 21:37 GMT (UK)
Yet more updates on the other thread http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/info-pilot-alfred-k-munningss-time-in-france.75942/

The plot thickens.  :)
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: smudgepants on Thursday 27 June 19 11:19 BST (UK)
If someone has changed their name here would it be recorded? It appears that Alfred K Munnnings may not have been his original name! My friend over in the uk is trying to help as much as he can and has spoken to someone else who claims to know a little bit about Mr Munnings. This person claims that his parents have spoken about a Mr Munnings but claim that his name was not Munnings. They apparently said they knew that Mr Munnings was a fighter pilot but do not know what his original name was.

The problem  have is that living in France I can not do things such as visit the archives in Kew or any other 'records office' in the uk and as my friend has never done this kind of thing he knows not where to look.

I have been investigating Munning's adventures here in France going to places indicated on maps he has made and it is evident that this person has been here as I have found things hiidden deep in the forest near Lyons-La-Foręt that are very hard to find, the last beiing a carving of what looks like a dead person on  a tree in exactly the same spot where Munning's or Monkey Munnings as I now call him.

I have shown the image of the dead person to the local chief of te forestry commission who knows the forest liike the back of his hand and it is the first he knew of it and is now investigating our find, once I get any info from him I will post t here, what is interesting is that there are the initials MN next to the carving.

I plan to return to this area with a local friend of mine who knows what to look out for concerning indications of a crash site. 

I will post any more findings as soon as I can but if someone can tell me where to look to find official name changes that would be much appreciated.     
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: smudgepants on Thursday 27 June 19 11:25 BST (UK)
This is a close up of the carving. It did not seem to work in my last post. 
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: smudgepants on Thursday 27 June 19 11:28 BST (UK)
The initials
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 27 June 19 14:05 BST (UK)
I think a bit of imagination is required to see a 'dead person' in that carving.  I can't make it out I'm afraid.  :(

Would carvings on trees still be visible after so many years? Would a tree shed or retain bark? I know nothing about French trees but maybe someone will.

Mr Munnings seems quite illusive so unlikely to have formally changed his name - more likely to have just used Munnings as an alias. It seems an unusual surname to choose though.

I'll be interested in other's thoughts.  :)
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: ThrelfallYorky on Thursday 27 June 19 15:56 BST (UK)
This Mr Alfred Munnings must've been just as much and Artist As Sir Alfred J. Munnings (1878 - 1959), but possibly gifted not in painting horses, but spinning illusions!
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: CaroleW on Thursday 27 June 19 17:25 BST (UK)
Replies 27 & 28 refer

My personal opinion is that this is a complete wild goose chase and waste of time.  Nothing stands up to any investigation and a very great deal of time and effort has been spent.    It is now over 70yrs since WW2 and I get the feeling this has all been an elaborate hoax by somebody - for what reason goodness only knows.

70 plus years and carved wood in an open forest is still allegedly transcribable ???

I do not intend to spend any more of my time on it
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: ThrelfallYorky on Thursday 27 June 19 17:37 BST (UK)
Exactly.
Title: Re: Alfred K Munnings
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 28 June 19 00:47 BST (UK)

70 plus years and carved wood in an open forest is still allegedly transcribable ???


The 'carving' reminds me of those pictures of Jesus or the Virgin Mary that some people claim to see in their toast.   ::)

Letters M and N? Can vaguely make that out, but if they are letters rather than just cracked bark, I don't see how it could be associated with Alfred Munnings.