RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: yeahyeah121212 on Thursday 14 March 19 22:09 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
You may have seen a few posts out there from me, but I'm just wondering if anybody would be able to help me look into my family for gypsy/traveller heritage that I believe I have. I managed to trench through many familysearch records and find an Augustine Bearse, who was apparently a Romany gypsy, deported from England because of that and married a native american girl Mary. If anybody could please help me with this it would be extremely appreciated, I'm not looking for much help just someone who I can through things with.
Thank you.
(If we could perhaps work on something, then there could be a reward for you, not really anything in terms of money though).
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Why do you think you are connected to Augustine Bearse (when, where, how?)
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Why do you think you are connected to Augustine Bearse (when, where, how?)
I traced back through my great grandmother's side, who I believed to be gypsies anyway with a large amount of proof, and ended up with Augustine Bearse.
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Why do you think you are connected to Augustine Bearse (when, where, how?)
Are you able to provide any assistance?
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If you google Augustine Bearse there is a lot of information out there including family trees.
Carol
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If you google Augustine Bearse there is a lot of information out there including family trees.
Carol
I have searched for this, however, I mostly need paid accounts on websites to access these family trees. And since he moved to America, I cannot exactly remember how he is connected to my family, but we are in England.
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If you are unsure of the family connection and Without names and dates of your family, I'm not sure what it is that you want help with?
Carol
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If you are unsure of the family connection and Without names and dates of your family, I'm not sure what it is that you want help with?
Carol
Right, I’ll try to explain the situation to you. My direct family line is Webb. My mother’s side is nothing to do with gypsies and travellers other than my maternal grandfathers surname being Corey. My paternal side however. Well my great grandmother is a Hillier. Now I believe this side to be full of Romany gypsies and just general gorgers. The Hillier side is where Bearse comes in and there is a lot of proof for being potentially Romany. Then my great great great grandmother. Esther Southwell. I believe this side to be a mix of Romany and Irish Traveller.
My main Webb family, however, are potentially gypsies, but the only things which set off that alarm are occupations etc.
If I provided dates and names would you be interested in any of these sides?
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' I mostly need paid accounts on websites to access these family trees. '
That is likely - research usually costs money, hobbies are not usually free.
'I cannot exactly remember how he is connected to my family'
Perhaps you should write down the family relationships in some form or other - there are free programmes out there to enter details.
If you cannot remember, then are you going to record what we find?
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' I mostly need paid accounts on websites to access these family trees. '
That is likely - research usually costs money, hobbies are not usually free.
'I cannot exactly remember how he is connected to my family'
Perhaps you should write down the family relationships in some form or other - there are free programmes out there to enter details.
If you cannot remember, then are you going to record what we find?
Yes I would record what you found and I am going to attempt to go back through my Hillier side to him again soon.
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If I provided dates and names would you be interested in any of these sides?
Putting the name in the thread title would have been a good start. Including date(s), even approximate, in your 1st post would have been useful.
Click on "Help" at top of page then "Getting the best results" under the heading "Posting Topics and Replies".
Have you looked on "Surname Interests" to see if anyone else is researching the name? (See brown section at foot of page.)
These are general points.
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Hello,
You may have seen a few posts out there from me, ….
There are several complex threads.
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If you google Augustine Bearse there is a lot of information out there including family trees.
Carol
Have you read information about Augustine Bearse on WikiTree? In particular read the sections on Disputed Origin, Disputed Spouse and Biography. *
See also https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/bearse/320
"Franklin BeArce invented …… serious genealogists should not perpetuate his 'research'. "
Augustine's wife, Mary, having been a Native American "princess" seems to have been a myth. Evidence for Augustine being a Romany is disputed.
An example on how evidence may be misinterpreted:
It says on one site that Augustine "was listed on a ship after Martha Wilde and her daughter, Mary …..". Another says "he was travelling with Martha Wilde and her daughter, Mary". The latter statement seems to imply that Augustine and Martha and her daughter might have been connected. The evidence shows only that they were on the same ship. They may have been listed consecutively because they boarded at same time. Some family historians make 2+2 = 5.
These events took place in early 17th century. Those trees and research give Augustine a birth year c.1618, going by estimated age of 20 when he emigrated.
Researching pre 1700 is very difficult. E.g. 2 of my lines remained in the same 2 English parishes from mid 1500s (start of parish registers) until 1800s. They occupied land so their names are on rent-rolls and leases; many made wills; some were qualified to vote, in an era when most men didn't; one line featured regularly on Recusant Rolls; there are a lot of documents in county and National Archives under their names. Despite all that evidence, I cannot get back with certainty beyond 1690. I'm not even 100% sure about the generation between 1690-1730.
*Edit. WikiTree has restrictions on who can add information about people born pre-1700 because of difficulties researching this time. The pre-1700 section on WikiTree has useful guidance on reliable and unreliable sources and the difference between source and evidence.
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(If we could perhaps work on something, then there could be a reward for you, not really anything in terms of money though).
RootsChat is a mutual help forum. Mention of reward is unnecessary. I suggest you delete that sentence.
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If you google Augustine Bearse there is a lot of information out there including family trees.
Carol
Have you read information about Augustine Bearse on WikiTree? In particular read the sections on Disputed Origin, Disputed Spouse and Biography. *
See also https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/bearse/320
"Franklin BeArce invented …… serious genealogists should not perpetuate his 'research'. "
Augustine's wife, Mary, having been a Native American "princess" seems to have been a myth. Evidence for Augustine being a Romany is disputed.
An example on how evidence may be misinterpreted:
It says on one site that Augustine "was listed on a ship after Martha Wilde and her daughter, Mary …..". Another says "he was travelling with Martha Wilde and her daughter, Mary". The latter statement seems to imply that Augustine and Martha and her daughter might have been connected. The evidence shows only that they were on the same ship. They may have been listed consecutively because they boarded at same time. Some family historians make 2+2 = 5.
These events took place in early 17th century. Those trees and research give Augustine a birth year c.1618, going by estimated age of 20 when he emigrated.
Researching pre 1700 is very difficult. E.g. 2 of my lines remained in the same 2 English parishes from mid 1500s (start of parish registers) until 1800s. They occupied land so their names are on rent-rolls and leases; many made wills; some were qualified to vote, in an era when most men didn't; one line featured regularly on Recusant Rolls; there are a lot of documents in county and National Archives under their names. Despite all that evidence, I cannot get back with certainty beyond 1690. I'm not even 100% sure about the generation between 1690-1730.
*Edit. WikiTree has restrictions on who can add information about people born pre-1700 because of difficulties researching this time. The pre-1700 section on WikiTree has useful guidance on reliable and unreliable sources and the difference between source and evidence.
Ah thank you for this. Gives me a bit more insight. I looked at a Hillier who married someone who’s cousin married an Irish traveller!😂. Nothing that important, but to be fair the Irish traveller was in the family of John doran and is a direct descendant of John Cash. I’m going to look for some more tomorrow, see if I can find anything else on this side.
Would you perhaps have any recommendations for when I’m looking about this?
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Would you perhaps have any recommendations for when I’m looking about this?
The only recommendations I would make about Augustine Bearse in particular (and any other individual) is treat online trees with caution, take myths and legends with a large amount of salt and only embark on serious pre-1700 research when you have a grounding and plenty of experience in researching ancestors from 20th, 19th & 18th centuries. Wrong tracks and pitfalls are multiplied when you get back 300 years. There's an online tree going back to mid 1600s for one of my families which I mentioned in my previous post; it's full of errors.
I recommend these 2 websites for guidance:
BYU Discovering English Ancestors (BYU = Brigham Young University)
Read Introduction > Getting Started
"Unfortunately the far more numerous online family trees are rarely documented. Use such only as a possible guide for further research, not as proof."
See also the section on Migration Records on the above site. Migration Records > External migration: External migration since 1600 (further down page). There is also a page relating to internal migration in England.
Edit. The link I put didn't work. Internet search for BYU Discovering English Ancestors should find it.
Tracing Your English and Welsh Ancestors
www.ancestor-search.info/home.htm
Btw you don't always need to quote entire replies in your answers, especially if you're replying to the post immediately before. You can either quote whichever part is relevant (I select the whole post, then delete irrelevant bits; other people may do it differently) or you could just put poster's name and reply number and say thanks or whatever you want to add.
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You seem a little vague and though you mention names, you do not explain how they connect to you or Augustine Bearse.
I would advise reading the link provided by MS and perhaps starting your research again with yourself, then your parents, grandparents, great grandparents and so on, and collecting appropriate certificates as you go to ensure you are following the correct families.
A DNA test might give you a bit of clarity (or confuse the issue even more) however keep in mind that ethnicity results are not to be taken as gospel despite the advertising campaigns.
Added: I have not read the links in full nor other threads on the same subject so similar comments may already have been made. Apologies if that is the case.
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You seem a little vague and though you mention names, you do not explain how they connect to you or Augustine Bearse.
I would advise reading the link provided by MS and perhaps starting your research again with yourself, then your parents, grandparents, great grandparents and so on, and collecting appropriate certificates as you go to ensure you are following the correct families.
A DNA test might give you a bit of clarity (or confuse the issue even more) however keep in mind that ethnicity results are not to be taken as gospel despite the advertising campaigns.
Added: I have not read the links in full nor other threads on the same subject so similar comments may already have been made. Apologies if that is the case.
Hello, thank you do you know where I can buy certs?
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For England & Wales - the GRO:
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
You will need to register - but the searches are free.
A PDF copy of a Birth or Death costs £7.
A paper Certificate will cost £11.
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If you want help in basic search techiques to look for records, have you tried
https://www.ltvas.org.uk/romsey--district-society
as I referred to in one of your previous threads?
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=797420.msg6545191#msg6545191
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Following on from chempat's suggestion (reply #19).
I recommend also finding out if there is a family history society for your local area or county and joining it. Ask about such societies at your library or look at Federation of Family History Societies website.