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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Snape123 on Wednesday 20 March 19 14:49 GMT (UK)
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Hi, I'm trying to look into my family tree (surname BOULD) but up until my Nana they lived on canal boats around Staffordshire/Derbyshire and I'm struggling to find information on them. I know one of the boats they had was called 'The Palm' as i have a picture of my great gran and 2 of her sons, and when they came off the boats...I think around the 1940s...they settled in a village called Ravensdale (which no longer exists) near Tunstall in Staffordshire.
Is there a canal boat / worker archive that I could try and track them through? As I'm not sure if censuses were done for families with no fixed abode?
Thank you in advance :)
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Have you tried to find them on normal census? Perhaps if you give the names/birth years for great gran and the 2 sons we could have a look :)
I've seen people in tents on a census so maybe people on boats will be there too.
There is also the 1939 register to check for them if they came ashore around then.
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Hi and welcome to rootschat ;D
There are lots of information out ther here is a basic one to get yout started http://canalrivertrustwaterfront.org.uk/heritage/waterway-genealogy/ and basically you need to research the area they worked, often they would baptise children in one particular church.
1940s there are no census available to research, but you can look at the 1939 register which might give you further information
......and if you search on rootschat you will also find other questions that are relevant to you https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=706504.0
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat, the only Bould family I could locate working the canals in Staffordshire ( Stoke on Trent ) for many years was a Henry Bould b c 1859 & his son Henry b c 1893, the vessels I have located them on, are Martha/ Lily, Phoebe & Edward.
Bear in mind the canal boats would have been moored up at possibly a lock-side so would have been accessible to the enumerator in containing on a census.
The names/year of birth of your Bould relatives would really help though.
Keyboard86
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat...This might be interesting for you:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=325605.0
Carol
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Thank you for the responses, i'm quite new to researching this so I might be missing obvious points! I have some history from my Nana who was Lily Bould (Married surname WOOD) - She had 6 siblings also with the surname Bould (Ellen, Charles, Bill/William, Harry, Violet and Rose - Charles, Violet and Rose all died at a young age).
My great grandparents who worked on the canals were Ellen Theobald born 1896 in Wolverhampton (Married surname BOULD) and Charles Bould.
And Ellen's parents were Henry Theobald born 1856 in Derby and Ellen Davenport born in 1864 in Oldbury Staffordshire.
The picture i have shows my great gran Ellen and 2 of her sons Bill and Harry sat on 'The Palm' canal boat that i would guess to have been taken 1920's/30's as they came off the canal and settled in Ravensdale, Tunstall, staffs some time in the late 30's-40's...
I have managed to find a little information on the Theobald line but i can't find my great grandad Charles Bould anywhere! But they did seem to be a very secretive family from stories I have been told!
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Hi again, so Ellen married as Helen Theobold Sept qtr 1920 Wolstanton to Charles Bould.
Keyboard86
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Hi again, so Ellen married as Helen Theobold Sept qtr 1920 Wolstanton to Charles Bould.
Keyboard86
Quite possibly, I did find that bit of info but I don't know how to verify if it is the same person but with a different spelling? ??? I also don't know when or where they were married and my Nana isn't around anymore to ask. Is there an easy way to try and link them up (Ellen/Helen) or is it just a case of digging?!
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Digging is the way to go . In case you can get to a parish record for the marriage
THEOBALD Helen m BOULD Charles
1920 Kidsgrove, St Thomas Staffordshire Newcastle-Under-Lyme
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Unfortunately I don't live locally to where my family are from, so am trying to find out as much as I can online until I can get up to staffs to have a poke around the archives!
Attached is the pic of my great gran and 2 of her sons :)
Ps just done a bit of digging and Ravensdale did come under Wolstanton which means it would come under Newcastle-under-lyme registry at the time so Ellen and Helen could very well be the same person :) thank you!
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Hi again, from the GRO Index c 1896 we have these Theobold/Davenport births possibly twins:-
Constance May
Mary Elizabeth
Both Dec qtr 1895 Wolstanton mmn Davenport?
Keyboard86
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Hi if I have the correct family in 1901, census ref RG13/3351/82/33 Henry/Ellen & Ellen had a son/brother Henry b 1900 look to be mmn Keen?
??? Really odd I can see the marriage of Henry Theobald to Ellen Davenport at Sneyd, Holy Trinity 23rd April 1893, fathers John Theobald &:George Davenport but once again an Ellen Theobald birth Sept qtr 1897 Wolverhampton mmn KEAN?
Keyboard86
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Hi if I have the correct family in 1901, census ref RG13/3351/82/33 Henry/Ellen & Ellen had a son/brother Henry b 1900 look to be mmn Keen?
Keyboard86
Quite possibly, this is the line i found and have been trying to follow http://www.boatfamilies.website/familychart.php?personID=I26644&tree=CanalFamily1
I haven't seen the name Keen come up yet though, and there seems to be a bit of dircrepancy around the year and where the younger Henry was born. My attachment shows born 1899 and says he was either born in rode heath or runcorn!
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Lol I'm glad I'm not the only one who is finding it all odd! :D Me and my mum have had many a discussion about this and both agree that there is a 'missing link' somewhere because things don't add up from the story's we've been told and the amount of secrecy in the family....maybe Keen/Kean is this missing link!?!
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:) So just when did the Theobald/Theobold family become Boatman, as Henry married as a Miner?
Keyboard86
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As far as im aware as far back as it goes...this is where I find out im following the wrong line somewhere :D
Some lovely people on the live chat have just had some break through information for me though on my great grandad Charles Bould
'name: Charles Bould
Gender: Male
Marital status: Married
Birth Date: 2 Jul 1897
Residence Year: 1939
Address: "Pink" Palm Anderson Drary Ravensdate
Residence Place: Stoke-on-Trent, Staffordshire, England
Occupation: Carne Boatman Heavy Worker
Schedule Number: 1
Sub Schedule Number: 1
Enumeration District: ONAO
Registration district: 360-1
Inferred Spouse: Helen Bould
Inferred Children: Lily Bould
Household Members:
Name
Charles Bould
Helen Bould
Spouse: Ellen Theobald
Children: ellen
Birth: 20 Dec 1896
Death: Jun 1977 Stoke-on-Trent, Staffordshire, England
Name: Charles Bould
Age in 1911: 13
Estimated birth year: abt 1898
Relation to Head: Son
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Sandbach, Cheshire, England
Civil Parish: Sandbach
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England
Street address: 447 Crewe Rd Wheelock Nr Sandbach
Registration district: Congleton
Registration District Number: 448
Sub-registration district: Sandbach
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Piece: 21744
Household Members:
Name Age
William Bould 49
Sabrina Bould 47
Eliza Bould 21
Selena Bould 19
Mary Bould 17
Charles Bould 13
Esther Bould 10
Betsy Ellen Bould 7
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:) OK so Ellen not Helen Theobald was baptised 2nd July 1897 Wolverhampton St Mary, Father Henry occ Boatman Mother Ellen address Canal boat Torquay.
When/where was Lily Bould born 21st May 1933? Ok found her, two children show mmn Theobalds/Theobolds and one Theabald?!
Possibly the marriage should be Henry Theobald to Ellen Keene Dec qtr 1895 Shardlow?
Henry Theobald 38
Ellen Keene 25
2nd December 1895 Long Eaton, Derbyshire
Fathers Thomas Theobald William Keene.
Keyboard86
PS so Henry aged 44 occ Carrying Potters Clay & Flint b Derbyshire
Ellen 36
Ellen 4
Henry 1
On Vessel Ormutry?
Census ref RG13/3351/82/33
1901 Census
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FindMyPast shows the marriage of Henry Theobald and Ellen Keene took place at Melbourne, Derbyshire.
Annette
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Hi again, in a rush but Hartshill, Holy Trinity Staffordshire is meaningful to the Bould family, the William in 1911 with Sabrina/Sabina was married there 1st August 1886 Sabrina nee Stevenson his father William occ Boatman Sabrina No father shown.
There are others including Hannah Bould 1886 to Thomas Stevenson her father Henry occ Boatman, Thomas no father shown.
It does appear the Henry I located and the William Bould are somehow related?
Keyboard86
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I believe Lily was born in Ravensdale, Tunstall, Stoke on Trent. My mum has her birth and death certificate so I have asked her to dig them out when she can. Lily was 1 of 7 children to Charles and Ellen Bould, but I know 3 died young and are buried in Wheelock. (Ellen, Charles, Bill/William, Harry, Violet and Rose).
Do you mean Henry Theobald as in Ellen's brother or do you mean a different Henry being related to William?
I've seen Holy Trinity pop up in a few places, and apparently families did used to stick to certain churches...Wheelock and Derbyshire seem to be thrown in there too.
Also yes there doesn't seem to be a definitive spelling of the Theobald surname!
It gets so confusing as they passed down the same forenames too!
Thank you so much though for all the info you have managed to find :) I'm finding it all absolutely fascinating!
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:) As I suggested, I have now located the three surviving children including Lily, so I have no problem with them!
It is the Sabrina/Thomas Stevenson couple who married Bould male/female
Keyboard86
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Aaah sorry, I mis-read it! (long day!)
Are you finding this info on Ancestry or another site? I have been reluctant to pay to sign up until I had a solid foundation to go off of but this info is all seeming very good :) As the searching seems pretty limited online without paying!
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:) I use FindMyPast for census in all areas, but/marriages/baptisms in certain counties, but located Lily etc births from www.freebmd.org.uk
Keyboard86
PS also try www.familysearch.org which is free.
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Hi all, I believe I have located the family of Thomas & Hannah Stevenson in 1911 which includes Henry Bould 75 occ Boatman, but 1891/1901?
The reason I am doing this is I am wondering if Sabrina Stevevenson is related to Thomas Stevenson both married 1886 Hartshill, Holy Trinity and show no fathers name at marriage?
Keyboard86
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It does seem a little coincidental that from your message that they both married a Bould in the same year!
1891/1901 - are they census years? (Sorry if that's a silly Q im still learning!)
Also, thank you for the Family Search tip :)
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Hi again, just wondering why the 1911 Thomas Stevenson family change their surname in 1901?
Thomas Downs 34 b Manchester
Hannah 35
Thomas 14
Edward 8
Ernest 7
Annie 4
Elsie 2
Albert 10 months
Joseph Bould 24 Brother in Law
All others born Etruria
7, Lord Street, Hanley
Census ref RG13/2605/160/1
1891 Thomas Downes 24 occ Boatman b Manchester and family at Salem Street, Stoke on Trent
Census ref RG12/2172/72/48
Think Thomas & Sabrina were with this family group in 1871 census:-
Boat in the arm of canal at Johnsons Forge, Bradford, Manchester
John Downs 43 b Macclesfield
Hannah 32 b Wallington?
Mary 10 b Stone
ZEBRA 6 b Marple, Cheshire
Thomas 4 b Manchester
Ann 2 b Etruria
Sarah 2 months b Tunstall
Census ref RG09/4060/70/80
The Sarah Downs above was registered March qtr 1871 Wolstanton mmn Stevenson?
Marriage 20th October 1871 Shelton, St Mark.
John DOWNES 42 Batchelor Occ Boatman Father Jonathan Downes occ Chapel Keeper
Hannah Stevenson 31 Spinster Father Benjamin Cooper occ Locksmitn
Both resident Etruria Wharf, Shelton
John Downes aged 11 b Macclesfield is shown as Nephew with a Jonathan Downes 42 occ Chapel Keeper in 1851 Census ref HO107/2161/70/12
Keyboard86
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Of no help, but for interest's sake, as surely this is your Charles Bould?
The Staffordshire Sentinel 23 May 1935 has a short article entitled: False Representation: Burslem Man Not Entitled to Benefit.
It is basically about a man who didn't report unloading canal boats so he could get unemployment benefits from his company. He claimed he forgot to report his work to the Exchange.
Long story short, at the end of the article, it says:
Mr Mason said defendant wrongfully drew 3s. 9d.in respect of March 4th.
"The Ministry attaches considerable importance to this case," Mr. Mason said, "because it is
particulary difficult to check this type of work. It is strongly suspected that many men unloading
canal boats are evading these regulations."
Charles Bould, an investigation officer for the Exchange, gave evidence in support of Mr. Mason's
statement.
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How odd - so they went from DOWNES to STEVENSON? Im guessing it would have had to of been legally changed? Or could they have just written it down different on a census?
And that newspaper article is really interesting if it is the same Charles Bould :) I find things like that and back stories fascinating!
I think I may have made a bit of progress on the Theobald side:
So it looks like Henry Theobald born 03.04.1857 and Ellen Lydia Keane brn 1865 may have had 4 children not 2 as i previously thought:-
Ellen Theobald b 1897 Wolverhampton
William Henry Theobald b 02.10.1898 Canal Street, Wolverhampton. Died Mar 1899 Wolverhampton
Henry Theobald b 1899 Churchlawton. Died 1971 Bucklow
Ruth Theobald b 1903 Congleton
Henry Theobald b 1857 parents look to be:-
Thomas Theobald b 1823 Draycott, d 1943 Kidsgrove
Ellen Chapman b 26.04.1829 Chellaston, Derbyshire, d 09.11.1857 Middlewich
They married 19.06.1848 in Alvaston, Derbyshire and they appeared to have 8 children listed below:-
John Chapman/Theobald b June 1848 Derby
Frederick Theobald b March 1850 Draycott, d Dec 1930 Derby
Mary Ellen Theobald b 1850 Derby
Sarah Ann Theobald b June 1854 Derby
Henry Theobald b Apr 1857 Derby, d 1943 Kidsgrove
Eleanor Theobald b 02.08.1860 Derby, d 1941 Cheshire
Joseph Theobald b Sept 1863 Derby, d Sept 1892 Shardlow
Harriet Theobald b Mar 1865 Ockbrook, Derbyshire, d 07.09.1941 Odd Rode, Cheshire
Mary Theobald b Mar 1867 Odd Rode, Cheshire
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Henry Theobald b 1857 parents look to be:-
Thomas Theobald b 1823 Draycott, d 1943 Kidsgrove
Ellen Chapman b 26.04.1829 Chellaston, Derbyshire, d 09.11.1857 Middlewich
Can you double check your typing, Snape? You have their last child listed as born 1867, so did Ellen die, and Thomas remarry? Thomas' death seems a bit out of reach as well?
I'm trying to dig around old newspapers, so far have found the sad death of Joseph, but relying on the dates given. :)
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Sorry! This is my bad! Thomas Theobald died in 1906 in Mickleover NOT 1943 (That was Henry!) and Ellen died in 1875 NOT 1857! Clearly need another coffee this morning! I even re-read it to check it all made sense ::)
Out of curiosity where are you hunting for newspaper articles? Is the an online archive for local papers? As I was wondering if I would have to go and look in person at the archives?
I have an article I would like to find but have very little to go off of other than a newspaper clipping of just a picture! It looks like my Nan sitting on one of their horses that towed the boat but would love to find the article it was for. Looking at her age its probably from the late 1930s.
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At the moment, I'm digging through the British papers at Findmypast.
Does the picture have any caption at all? Can you think of any keywords I could search with (as in the name of the waterway, or some hint?) I'm just heading off to bed, but will look in the morning, otherwise I'll have the coffee that you need, and be up all night! :D
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Unfortunately it literally has nothing! They've perfectly just cut around the picture! I would imagine it would have been a local Staffordshire news paper, possibly the Staffordshire Sentinel? The family name at the time would have been BOULD....I will see if I can deduce anything else to go off of :)
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Hi again, if you look again at the 1871 census, all the children were born prior to the marriage of John Downes to Hannah STEVENSON in 1871?
Keyboard86
EDIT The Mary Downes aged 10 in 1871 could be the baptism 5th January 1862 Stone, Christ Church Father John occ Boatman Mother Ann address Macclesfield
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Hi all, really need a second opinion, their is a marriage 4th October 1880 Etruria, St Matthew of Mary Stevenson 19 address Etruria to William Bold 21 occ Boatman address Salem Street.
Grooms father Henry Bold occ Boatman, Brides father JAMES Stevenson occ Boatman, the witnesses are what looks like Sabrina Stevenson & Thomas Bold, it is the Sabrina I need confirmation on?
Keyboard86
EDIT The 1881 census RG11/2724/71/28 suggests it is Mary, ( Large blob over her age ) but born Stone, at Etruria Locks, Stoke upon Trent, and she made up the name of her father at marriage?
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I am going in the same circles you are, Keyboard!
So far, the only birth I have found for a Sabrina, born 1864 in Cheshire is:
Sabrina Downes, registration district Stockport, 1864 July quarter, mmn Gregory.
I suppose it could be possible Mary is a half/step sister to Sabrina, but.....agh!!
I am still hunting, though, don't feel alone in your confusion!
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:) Glad I am not the only one!
Oddly there is a SABINA DOWN 16 b Manchester ( Same place as Thomas ) shown as a Servant in Gladstone Street, Stoke upon Trent in 1881?
Census ref RG11/2729/70/24
Keyboard86
PS but that would mean Sabrina if her at the marriage of Mary 1880, changed surname from Stevenson to Down/Downes at census 1881?
:) Gladstone Street is a short walk to Salem Street Google maps tells me.
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Do we even know for sure that Charles is the son of William and Sabrina, or is that just based on the 1911 census?
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Hi Charles Bould was registered 1898 Congleton mmn Stevenson.
Keyboard86
PS 1901 RG13/3352/72/30
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The Sabrina mystery (as uncovered by Keyboard86, super-sleuth!):
I think what could have happened is the following confusing post, however it doesn't explain why the children did not acknowledge their father on the marriage records:
In 4th quarter 1859, John Downs married Ann Gregory (District Stockport, County Cheshire, Volume 8a, page 41) (As you always get four names, I believe I have correctly ruled out the the other two as a couple, as they are trackable on census).
John Downes and Ann Gregory have Mary, and Sabrina. I have not found the birth for Mary, but Sabrina is DOWNES, SABRINA mmn GREGORY GRO Reference: 1864 S Quarter in STOCKPORT Volume 08A Page 2
We know from Keyboard86's discovery (reply 32) that John Downes didn't remarry Hannah Stevenson until 1871, and the most common reason for that back then is, they were still married in the eyes of the law/church. Divorce was not an option back then unless you were very rich, so Ann Gregory must have left him, and by 1871 either deceased, or gone long enough he could remarry.
However, they (John and Hannah) lived as a married couple, and the next three children, were registered as Downes, mmn Stevenson. That means Ann Gregory left between the birth of Sabrina, and Thomas. Thomas was baptized at Hartshill 08 July 1867 to John and Hannah, boatman.
In 1871 John and Hannah Stevenson marry, and on the census, they are all Downes (See reply 25 by Keyboard86). The same year, they get Mary baptized (Keyboard86 reply 32).
Between 1871 and the marriage of daughter Mary in 1880, something happened to make the paternity a question for Mary.
In 1881 Census, Sabrina has left home, working as a servant, but still using the Downs name (mentioned by Keyboard86).
However, at the marriages of each of Sabrina and half-brother Thomas, both leave the father's name blank. Sabrina, who never knew her real mother, thinks Hannah is her mother, and uses Stevenson. I assume they knew they were both born before John and Hannah married, so they thought they were really Stevenson's. Thomas starts using the Stevenson name in censuses. He may have still used the Downes name in real life, as not to confuse people; we will never know that part). Sabrina uses Stevenson when getting married, as she thinks Hannah is her mother, unmarried at her birth.
The paper trail so far indicates that John Downes was the father to all, but for some reason, 3 of the children (so far, haven't checked marriages for the others) all refuse to acknowledge him.
The marriage registration for John Downes and Ann Gregory is the key, as it might disprove all of this, but so far, this is the only thing making sense.
As for the marriages, Sabrina married Charles Bould, who I believe was a first cousin to the Boulds that Thomas and Mary each married.
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John and Hannah had a bunch of kids after the 1871 census, which I don't have time to post right now, but from the marriages I can find so far, they seemed to have no problem naming John as the father, but they were not marrying Boulds like the others did .... could there have been a big Downes vs Bould feud going on? Was the canal boat business highly competitive?
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Hi working on the possible marriage of John Downes/Downs to Ann Gregory trying to locate 1861.
Hannah Downs 50 Widow remarried a William Bailey 43 Widower occ Blacksmitb 18th September 1892 Etruria, St Matthew
Grooms father John Bailey occ Printer
Brides father Benjamin Cooper occ Locksmith
Both parents deceased.
Both resident Salem Street.
Hannah Bailey died March qtr 1911 Stoke on Trent aged 70
Also when John Downs married Hannah Stevenson 1871 he said he was a batchelor.
Keyboard86
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Hannah Downs 50 Widow remarried a William Bailey 43 Widower occ Blacksmitb 18th September 1892 Etruria, St Matthew
Grooms father John Bailey occ Printer
Brides father Benjamin Cooper occ Locksmith
Both parents deceased.
Both resident Salem Street.
I saw that, and of help to that, one of Hannah and John's daughters, either Louisa or Maud Florence, lived on Salem St. after marriage (my notes are so scattered I can't find it at the moment), Maud married Frederick Tideswell 1902, and Louise married Charles Pritchard in 1897. From Maud's delayed baptism, John and Hannah lived on Lord St in 1897:
Maud Florence Downes born 21 jan 1883 to john and hannah Lord st, boatman baptized 28 Mar 1897 (and of course, didn't put the Church in my notes.... ::))
Also when John Downs married Hannah Stevenson 1871 he said he was a batchelor.
I think that means Ann Gregory was still alive, so he wouldn't be allowed to remarry. I have hit that several times in trees, but those trees were so much easier to make a good paper trail (and a few times getting caught and put in the newspaper!).
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:o This is all so confusing! I think im going to have to try and draw out a map of it all!
So much fantastic information though :) thank you so much for helping! There's no way i could have found all of this and tried to figure it out by myself!