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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Carmarthenshire => Topic started by: Talacharn on Wednesday 20 March 19 23:29 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to find more information regarding my great-great grandfather. Because he was born in Newcastle-Emlyn, I am struggling to go back further as it straddles different counties. An archivist in Carmarthen, felt I should look in Carmarthenshire, but I do not know what that was based upon, as my information said N Castle Emlyn, Cardiganshire, Wales.
My main questions are, who were his parents and how do I go back before 1834?
Thomas Williams b. 1838 Newcastle Emlyn, married Margaret b. 1836 Laugharne. They had at least five children; Thomas b. 1871, Elizabeth b. 1863, Margaret b. 1866, Sarah b.1872 and John Howell b. 1877. Margaret Williams mother and daughter are buried in the chapel graveyard, Laugharne. There is a broken headstone saying the mother died in 1889 and the daughter died aged 22 years. As both are buried in the chapel, I assume they were chapel rather than church. To confirm this, I cannot find his burial in the records of Laugharne church. My church records do not go back far enough for the wedding. Chapel records are lost.
Also, what was her maiden name?
1881 Census - Folio: RG11 5395/58 - It says on Family Search, Thomas Williams, the father, was born in N Castle Emlyn, Cardiganshire, Wales. His wife and all children, were born in Laugharne ((N Castle Emlyn)), Carmarther, Wales. I do not understand the brackets, and I cannot find Census information before or after 1881.
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Hello,
1881 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2W9-P2ZW
The brackets are mistakenly copied from the ‘C’ in Carmarthen and then dittoed for the children.
Here is the family minus Thomas in 1871
1871 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V55Q-QKW
https://www.gro.gov.uk/
Seems to indicate mother’s maiden name as Howell or Howells
If you have not used this search, you need to sign in (Free) and follow ‘order certificates’ . You do not need to order though.
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A likely Marriage
Carmarthen December 1855 vol 11a pg 997
Margaret Howell
Thomas Williams
This would give you their fathers’ names
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On the 1871 census, Margaret gives her place of birth as Llansadwrnen, a couple of miles from Laugharne
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CMN/Llansadwrnen
Possible 1841 census
Llansadwrnen Village HO107/1382/21 folio 4 pg 2
Margret Howell 40
Mary 13
David 11
John 8
Margret 7
Thomas 5
all born in county
From FreeReg, possible baptisms to Jonah Howell & Margaret Powell at Laugharne Old Chapel
John 3 June 1832
Margaret 2 July 1834
Thomas 4 May 1836
Marriage 10 Jan 1818 at Llansadwrnen parish church of Jonah Howell of Eglwys Cymyn, labourer, and Margaret Howell of Llansadwrnen. Both mark, witnesses James Welsh, Thomas Meriman & ? Mess?
There is another Jonah & Margaret Howell of similar age with similarly named children in St Clears, but that Margaret was a Lewis. And just to make it more interesting, that Margaret is living in Laugharne in 1851.
::)
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Thanks All,
I had traced her maiden name, parents and children; but being inexperienced at this I was unsure, so thought it best to ask. The replies seem to indicate the same, but I will get their certificates, more out of curiosity. They lived at a farm called Little Mountain, which is still standing. The surname makes sense as Howell keeps appearing as a middle name, including my father. As it branches away from my line, the names I would like are the parents of Thomas Williams born Newcastle Emlyn. I have registered to buy certificates, so now need their marriage certificate Carmarthen December 1855 vol 11a page 997.
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It is best to post if you have already found the information - you can always add that you are seeking confirmation.
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On the GRO website it says I cannot order marriage certificates online. Any suggestions?
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you can order online. Go to 'Place an Order', you need to state type of event, year and tick yes to having the reference.
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Thanks Osprey,
I followed your instruction and ordered the certificate.
Being new to this, it helps when someone knows what to do.
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When it says Thomas Williams was a Mariner, what does it mean; is there a distinction between owning his own boat, or crewing for others?
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more than likely crewing for others. But he doesn't seem to be on this wonderful database
http://www.welshmariners.org.uk/search.php
:-\
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The marriage certificate arrived: 22 Dec 1855 in the Parish Church of Laugharne. It names John Williams as the father and was signed in the presence of Jonah Howell (her father) and Jane Killa, both with a cross. Rank or Profession of Father, gives Labourer for both. I assume his father was not present, with Jane Killa as witness. In 1871, Jane Killa was a Licensed Publican.
It is like searching for the needle in a haystack, looking for a John Williams in West Wales. The census information suggests his son Thomas was born c.1838 Newcastle-in-Emlyn Cardigan.
On Family Search I found a John Williams born c.1806 in Newcastle Emlyn, Cardigan on the 1861 Census. Registration Number RG09 Piece/Folio 4138 / 40 Page Number 15: Mary Williams his wife, born c.1803 in Llanstephan (Llansteffan) with children James Williams born c.1835 and Hanah Williams born c.1843 both in Llanstephan. Llansteffan is just around the headland from Laugharne. Thomas Williams was born c.1838, which fits within this the dates of this family. Although Census information says Thomas Williams was born in Newcastle Emlyn, they could have moved to Llansteffan after he was born and before James was born. It seems too close to be coincidence. At present I cannot find anything on the 1851 Census, which could confirm or dismiss my hunch.
Any ideas on this and what I do next?
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This is incidental but in 1851, there is a Jane Killa 13 yrs just a couple of doors away from the Howell family. I don’t know if she is the one you found in 1871 but she is a likely candidate for the marriage witness.
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You say Margaret died 1889 but could this be here in 1891?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:4PVK-SZM
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The one I offered may not be right, but there is a Jane Killa aged 50 in the 1951 Census, who lived at the Roches, Laugharne, so in 1855 she would be 54. Even this Jane Killa may not be the right one as there are different Killa families.
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The Thomas Williams offered is his son and the middle Thomas Williams. My family is difficult as my grandfather, g-grandfather and gg-grandfather were all Thomas Williams. Thomas Williams born in Newcastle Emlyn is more difficult to find. But if my hunch is right, I should have been looking in Llanstephan.
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sorry, I don't share your feelings about that John Williams in Llansteffan. According to the census, he was a mariner and the marriage cert has labourer. He did have a son called Thomas, but he was 12 in 1841.
Village, Llanstephan HO107/1382/22 folio 16 page 6
John Williams 35 mariner
Mary 35
Thomas 12
Evan 9
James 6
David 3
John 3 months
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Hi Osprey,
Does the Census say where Thomas was born?
Between that Census and marriage, there is 14 years; Thomas would be 26 and John's employment could have changed, or not given accurately.
But if he were living in Llanstephan, it is easy to attend the wedding, so why would Jane Killa be the witness. It is much easier than from Newcastle Emlyn. I could row across to Llanstaffan in 30 minutes, and quicker than going by road today.
I will keep looking into this family.
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1841 census doesn't give places of birth, just whether they were born in county, in Ireland, Scotland or Foreign parts. For that family, all born in county.
1851 Llanstephan Village HO107/2472 folio 371 pg 1
Mary William head mar 47 mariner's wife
David son 13
John son 9
Annah dau 7
George son 4
all born Llanstephan
George baptised in Llanstephan Oct 1846 son of John, mariner, and Mary. Possible birth regs in sept qtr 1846 have mother's maiden name as Jones or Davies.
Possible marriage 26 Dec 1825 in Llanstephan for John Williams & Mary Davis, both marked, both otp, and witnessed by David Lewis & John Davies, both signed.
can't see parish baptisms in Llanstephan for any of the other children.
Don't assume that parents are likely to be witnesses, in the families I've followed, it's more often siblings or friends.
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Thanks Osprey, The information provided I had not found. Although I can see this is not the family I will look further as Mariner from Newcastle Emlyn may open a path. Her father Jonah Howell was also a Labourer, but in the 1841 Census is a Mariner.
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Had typed this up, census entry & marriage of the other Thomas
1861 census Llanstephan Village RG9/4138 folio 52 pg 13
Thomas Williams head mar 32 carrier
Rachel wife 29
John son 16 months
all born Llanstephan
Later census entries family is in Llanelli
Marriage 9 Dec 1858 in Abergwili parish church
Thomas Williams full bachelor carrier Llanstephan father John Williams, Sailor &
Rachel Lewis full spinster Penybank, father John Lewis, labourer
witnesses Henry Jones & Richard Williams, all signed except Rachel
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death notice for Margaret from newspaper dated 12 June 1908, still in Gosport Street
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3763585/3763590/48/
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Her broken gravestone is where the Philadelphia Independent Chapel stood. I could read 8th Damaged 1908, so now I know it is June. Also on the gravestone is their daughter also Margaret aged 22 years. The oldest daughter Esther was baptised in Llansadurnen, but after that they supported the new chapel much further away, but each baptism says they were still living in Llansadurnen.
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The Jane Killa I gave you was the same age as Margaret and a neighbour.
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1901 census has a possible entry for Thomas working as a navvy in a lodging house in Llanelli RG13/5089 folio 121 pg 16, And there's this from a newspaper 9 Feb 1906 which may be son Thomas not maintaining his mother
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3584072/3584076/21/
1901 Portfield, Haverfordwest RG13/5130 folio 50 pg 6
Thomas Williams head mar 30 hawker b. Laugharne
Martha wife 29 b. Walton West
Martha dau 7
Thomas son 6
John son 4
Agnes Richards wife's sister 16
all others born Haverfordwest
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more info from a previous court appearance - under maintenance order
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4358316/4358322/43/
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Thomas Son 6 is my grandfather
Martha is Martha Jane Richards
From a newspaper article when Thomas (Head) died it also named Violet May Williams and Florence as daughters.
There are links within my family between Haverfordwest and Laugharne. Thomas (son) married Margaret Elizabeth Victoria Brown of Laugharne in 1915 at Merthyr Tydfil; they were cousins.
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Interesting article:
'She had a husband living at Llanelly. He was a drunken, worthless man, doing nothing, arid had gone to the Union.' I have a death of Thomas Williams of the Union Workhouse in Llanelli, but could not link it to my family. Now I know where and when he died. It does sound like my family. Closer generations spent plenty of time drunk followed by Court sessions and threats of jail.
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you can search for newspaper articles here, up to 1919. If you use the advanced search with Thomas Williams in one search box and Laugharne in the other, there are more articles.
https://newspapers.library.wales/
;)
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Thanks Osprey, Until you posted articles I was not aware the Carmarthen Journal could be accessed online. Following your first article, I started searching, but not the Advanced Search, so was wading through all permutations. Now searching correctly I am finding some interesting articles.
At present the Reference Library and Archive Services are not available in Carmarthen because of building work/refurbishment, in bringing the two services together, which will not happen before September 2019. I now have a contact email for one of the archivists and will ask about Thomas Williams in the Union Workhouse, Llanelli; when admitted, why and the exact date he died.
Although I have only found the name of his father, I have learnt so much more about Thomas Williams, his wife and children. Laugharne was split into two social areas, upper with grand houses along the main road they were referred to as Lords and Ladies, whereas lower Laugharne with rough terraced cottages were Cats and Dogs. I though it was only my grandfather who was always in trouble, but his father and grandfather were the same, much to do with drink.
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glad to be able to help! Local newspapers can be a mine of information about family, especially the sort that wouldn't have been passed down the family!
::)
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I searched FreeBDM for a 1838 birth of Thomas Williams and found the Jan-Mar 1839 entry, then ordered the certificate from GRO. Assuming a birth very late in the year, could have been registered in January.
After, I used the GRO search for 1838 and Newcastle in Emlyn, with a 2 year range. It only offered three options. I know his father is John Williams from the marriage certificate, so I will wait for the birth certificate to arrive.
Thomas Williams . Mother Delves . Apr-Jun 1838 . Newcastle . Volume 17 Page 85
Thomas Williams . Mother Thomas . Jan-Mar 1839 . Newcastle in Emlyn . Volume 26 Page 621
Thomas Williams . Mother Jones . Jul-Sep 1839 . Newcastle Emlyn . Volume 26 Page 664
Could Newcastle, with mother’s name Delves, be a different one to Newcastle Emlyn? As the Delves surname originates from Cheshire/Staffordshire, I feel it might refer to Newcastle under Lyme.
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volume 17 did cover the area including Newcastle under Lyme. There's always the possibility that the birth wasn't registered as it was the early days of registration.
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When I used Family Search for John Williams with the different spouses, it only offered me one marriage in Newcastle in Emlyn Jan-Mar 1838 Volume 26 Page 698, with possible spouse Mary Griffiths or Anne Jones. That would fit with Thomas Williams . Mother Jones . Jul-Sep 1839 . Newcastle Emlyn . Volume 26 Page 664. I may have ordered the wrong certificate.
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the registration district of Newcastle In Emlyn covered these parishes
https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/newcastle%20in%20emlyn.html
The town of Newcastle Emlyn was in the parish of Cenarth
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CMN/Cenarth
His parents may have married before civil registration or in another area. There is a marriage in Cenarth 25 March 1824 of John Williams of Bwlchmelyn and Judith Thomas of Newcastle. Judith Williams appears to be a widow in 1841 with 2 daughters, no sign of a son Thomas.
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I will obtain the John Williams and Anne Jones marriage certificate and if that leads nowhere it is time to stop. As both Thomas Williams and his father John Williams state they were born at Newcastle-in-Emlyn, Cardigan, I have not looked for a marriage elsewhere. A bonus has been finding John Williams. Instead, I will find more about those already found, maybe even spreading out further, as many married into what I would call ‘Laugharne’ families.
With the reference library and archive services unavailable until September, I could only send an email asking about Thomas Williams in the Union Workhouse. The closure also restricts me to Family Search.
The information I struggle with is combining Mariner with Newcastle Emlyn, as its river does not seem navigable for anything larger than a Coracle and is a distance to work in Cardigan where I associate Mariners. Both may have moved when Thomas was young and he then became a Mariner, which means on the marriage certificate he could have any employment. There are at least three Mariners in my family, of the same generation, and all changed later in life to be Labourers. I assume as road transportation took over, fewer Mariners were required.
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This morning, I had a response from Carmarthenshire Archives to my email asking about the Union Workhouse in Llanelli. The majority of records have been lost, including all relating to Thomas Williams. With other sources saying the records were with Carmarthenshire Archives, I do question when the documents were lost; and who were the custodians at the time.
I wanted to establish when the Williams family moved to Laugharne. Having found my grandfather was born in Haverfordwest, I initially thought my question had been answered, but I then found his father, also Thomas Williams was born in Laugharne. Two generations earlier, and another Thomas Williams, I found born at Newcastle in Emlyn, but I needed to be sure that he was the first, which was confirmed with John Williams. This page can now close.
My interest has switched to finding more about the spread of this family. Those who know I am researching my family tree, feel I should write the history, as so much has been written about those of ‘upper’ Laugharne and nothing about the fishermen and cocklewomen, but for it to be a warts and all, including the court appearances. Some relating to my grandfather are a great read.
Thanks Osprey for your support.
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the records will have been lost/destroyed before the advent of the archives. If you look at this site, you'll find how few records survive
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/NewcastleInEmlyn/
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Cardiff/
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It is the www.workhouses.org.uk website that says the records at the Carmarthenshire Archives. I imagine at the time, no one considered they would be of any interest, especially as the inmates had no worth to society.
I have the 1901 Census, with Thomas Williams living in Llanelly, boarding with 12 other males and he was working as a Navvy. Then by 1911 he is an inmate of the Union Workhouse. But in October 1901, an article says he has once more absconded. That suggests he was admitted between March and October, though it would have been good to find a date and formally why he was detained.
When I re-read the marriage certificate, it says Thomas Williams was living in Laugharne at the time of the wedding, though I cannot find him in 1861 or earlier. Also that he was a Labourer, as was his father-in-law Jonah Howell, with both going on to be Mariners, so it was not until he lived in Laugharne that he became a Mariner. One record says he was a Seaman, which could mean being away for long periods, but there is nothing for Margaret Williams in 1861, when they were married and first daughter Esther had been born. I have found her in 1841 as Margret aged 7, so in 1851, she could be working in-service somewhere, though I cannot find her parents in 1851 either.