RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: BillyF on Friday 22 March 19 09:58 GMT (UK)
-
A second series of a House through Time is going to be shown soon, this time set in Newcastle. I`m looking forward to it already !
-
Thanks for the reminder; really enjoyed the first series.
-
Oooo! This looks wonderful! :)
I have not heard of this series so thank you for alerting me to it. I have to try to get hold of it now.
-
I see this has the same presenter as the first series. I hope he leaves his prejudices off screen this time.
-
I see this has the same presenter as the first series. I hope he leaves his prejudices off screen this time.
I have never heard of this chap - it will be interesting to see how I "get along" with him. An unsuitable presenter can ruin a very good programme and force me to switch off which has happened in the past. I like the sound of this series so I hope he is not too off-putting. :)
-
Any idea when this will be shown??
-
Any idea in which street in N/C the house is in. I'd like to pop there and have a look.
-
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/whats-on/arts-culture-news/house-time-newcastle-alder-ravensworth-15198097
-
Definitely one to watch out for :D
Carol
-
I see this has the same presenter as the first series. I hope he leaves his prejudices off screen this time.
I have never heard of this chap - it will be interesting to see how I "get along" with him. An unsuitable presenter can ruin a very good programme and force me to switch off which has happened in the past. I like the sound of this series so I hope he is not too off-putting. :)
Yes It is worth giving it a go. I did stick with the previous series to the end despite the presenter because I wanted to see how it panned out.
-
That area of N/C has some lovely houses but has a few problems now. It will be very interesting to watch.
-
Sorry, Davidft, I have no idea what you are alluding to. I found the first series fascinating and thought the presenter was very good.
William
-
Sorry, Davidft, I have no idea what you are alluding to. I found the first series fascinating and thought the presenter was very good.
William
That's Ok I was deliberately not specific so as to not sway people to my way of thinking.
-
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/whats-on/arts-culture-news/house-time-newcastle-alder-ravensworth-15198097
Fabulous house. But what on earth have they built butt up against it?
How was that allowed? :'(
I’ve never heard of Joshua Alder, so look forward to learning about him, as well as his house. :)
-
I see this has the same presenter as the first series. I hope he leaves his prejudices off screen this time.
I have never heard of this chap - it will be interesting to see how I "get along" with him. An unsuitable presenter can ruin a very good programme and force me to switch off which has happened in the past. I like the sound of this series so I hope he is not too off-putting. :)
Yes It is worth giving it a go. I did stick with the previous series to the end despite the presenter because I wanted to see how it panned out.
I binge watched the first series today. :) quite enjoyable.
I couldn’t take my eye off the presenter’s crooked glasses though ..... :P :)
I was expecting a little more about the house (structure, builder, features and so on) as well as the inhabitants, though that is not a criticism of the series - I just did not know what to expect. ;)
I feel that he spent a little too long on some inhabitants but this was understandable as there would have been a lot more to be found about some than others.
I thought that he (or whoever wrote the script) jumped to a few many conclusions in some cases, and filled in a few too many gaps, with what may or may not have been true, based on the limited facts available. I found him a little opinionated aand judgemental. :)
I looked up the sale prices and dates for the property and found it quite interesting
https://www.zoopla.co.uk/property/62-falkner-street/edge-hill/liverpool/l8-7qa/12213921
Overall ... interesting, and I think the new series will be worth a look too. :)
-
The presenter of this programme was on Radio4's 'Saturday Live' this morning. Broadcast date given as 8th April 9pm. BBC2 I think.
Tony.
-
Just to say I too thought the presenter was good - no histrionics or 'dressing up' in period costume etc. He's a proper historian. I am very much looking forward to the second series.
Melbell
-
I enjoyed it too. I wish they would also bring back The Secret History of Our Streets / My Family - such great programmes
-
My grandmother was living in this Newcastle street on the 1891 census and I've often been down there to take photos. The area, although surrounded by challenging streets, is now the Summerhill conservation area. The conservation area character statement can be seen online at https://www.newcastle.gov.uk/sites/default/files/wwwfileroot/legacy/regen/plantrans/conservation/Summerhill.pdf photos too!
A few years ago I chatted to a lady who lived in a nearby house, she says as far as she knew the houses were still residential without the glut of lawyers and architects offices that these areas seem to attract. So we shall see whether that has now changed.
Gen in NBL UK
-
Not sure if anyone has already flagged this up, but 'A House Through Time' is on BBC2 at 9pm on Monday 8 April. If you remember the last series followed the history of a house in Liverpool. This series will be following a house in Newcastle
I really enjoyed the last series so hopefully this will be as good
Chris
-
I've set it to record, thankyou, I enjoyed the last series too.
-
Hi Chris :)
It came up a while ago:
Threads merged.
I'm really looking forward to it.
Gadget
-
Hi Chris :)
It came up a while ago:
Threads merged.
I'm really looking forward to it.
Gadget
Thanks Gadget. I thought someone would have mentioned it. I must have somehow missed the thread
Chris
-
I really enjoyed the last series and this time it's from Newcastle where the presenter David comes from.
-
Enjoyed the first series, I will be watching. Thanks for the reminder Chris.
-
Googled it. That looks right up my street! Wonder if it'll ever be on netflix?
-
Interesting but I see it's another large posh house that has been chosen for study. Hardly representative of the type of housing most peoples ancestors would have lived in.
A BBC 'presenter, writer and historian' would probably live in a house like this now though ;D
-
They need it to be a house that has plenty of official records It would be no good choosing a small terrace that only comes up on a census every 10 years!
-
The Liverpool house in the previous series at one stage was split into flats and was occupied by ordinary working class people.
Prior to that the rooms were rented, once again to ordinary people, so a bit of a mixed bag.
If you look at the recent sale prices of the Liverpool house it would be within the price range of many of the people on "Escape to the Country." ;D
-
They need it to be a house that has plenty of official records It would be no good choosing a small terrace that only comes up on a census every 10 years!
I see your point, but they could easily choose workers housing built by a local factory or coal mine owner. Many official records related to this would be in local archives. I found a plan of the street and the house my great uncle, and his extended family lived in, it is online and also used as a text book example of cramped back to back terraced housing in the West Riding. Another member of my family lives in an old miners 'cottage' to this day, the local mines sometimes employed child orphans or the children of paupers. Those young labourers are named in indenture records, the plans for the housing still exist, as do records for person who built them.
Though many were demolished during slum clearance, this type of housing is still occupied in some cities and towns in the north. The census also provides a great deal of information about each individual and those people would be in other records as well. Also many rural agricultural labourers cottages still survive.
Mine, and factory, owners are named in records across the country. Plans and deeds are recorded for workers terraced housing as well as for larger houses. Local industrial unrest and reform movements throughout the 19th century are recorded in the newspapers of the time. Labourers are also named in criminal records and newspaper articles related to reform movements, for example sedition, unlawful meetings, drilling and swearing illegal oaths and this is during the time of the census as well. An interesting programme could easily be made about one of these older labourers houses, if they looked hard enough.
-
I agree that it would be interesting and enlightening to have a similar series related to more humble dwellings and their inhabitants over the decades. It could even be expanded to include a terrace of worker's dwellings, giving details of the families who lived there.
In some areas which have been 'gentified' these houses have now passed into the hands of quite wealthy people .... so a bit of a turn around really. :)
-
The Liverpool house in the previous series at one stage was split into flats and was occupied by ordinary working class people.
Prior to that the rooms were rented, once again to ordinary people, so a bit of a mixed bag.
It's only the second series but David Olusoga seems to be choosing the type of housing many of us will remember as 'bedsit land' in the 1970's and 80's. The type of housing split into rooms or flats for students, some recent immigrants and single male labourers.
Previously originally built for the wealthy merchant class. I expect some of these merchants wives as widows would have rented out a room out, but those rooms would have been let to single men who maybe worked as clerks or as say a manager in an office. Not to your average 19th century industrial labourer
If you look at the recent sale prices of the Liverpool house it would be within the price range of many of the people on "Escape to the Country." ;D
Yes ;D
-
There's just been a little preview and interview with David on our local BBC North East and Cumbria.
-
I've just looked at a preview online. And he seems to be doing like he did before. In this instance (in the 1 min clip I was able to view) he's discovered there was a theft from the house and he is quite interested in the two lads who stole from the house, and so wants to investigate them further. So, I guess interesting, but not I feel directly related to the history of the house. This is what I found with the Liverpool house, how shall I say... he kept going 'off piste'.
Anyway... let's see what the full programme brings!
CD
-
I agree CD.
I was hoping for more about the physical house, it's architecture, the changes it went through over the years. It was touched on, but not quite enough I don't think. :) He did go off on tangents and I felt spent too much time on interviews.
I was not keen on the way he embellished the 'stories' and made judgements about people who lived hundreds of years ago - I suspect that will continue in the new series. :
Still, it is quite interesting and very watchable but I hope he has sorted his glasses out .... ::)
-
Saw nearly all of it last night - had to stop unfortunately, but will finish today.
I think the principle of the programme is that we all 'borrow' our houses, even though we do think of them as 'ours' and that if it's possible to find the history of the various previous occupants then this adds to our understanding of the house's history.
So not necessarily either an architectural programme, or indeed one which focuses on internal decorations of the various eras. Although I do seem to recall in the previous series that some of the domestic layout was covered.
Here the expert did remind us of the 'vermin' and 'insect' life in the kitchen which was not great to be reminded of. My mother lived in a much smaller house, in the poorest part of London, and she spoke of the 'smell of the bed bugs' which were, at the time, impossible to get rid of.
I think it's nearly impossible not to imagine stories around the discoveries one makes. Coming from a humble background, I also find it hard - despite knowing the cultural norms of previous times - to feel sympathetic to those with a modicum of money who looked down on those who had not.
Whether this should be done more in a 'one theory for these circumstances could be....' or 'one wonders whether' type of story-telling is another thing.
The thought of trying to find something to eat by stealing, when there was not much chance of getting anything any other way, and being punished by being transported at the age of 14 is horrendous whichever way.
I find the social history fascinating.
-
Good thoughts Igor - I understand and agree with what you are saying.
One particular example from the previous series which grated with me a bit, was the way he spoke about the man who ended up moving to America, and “abandoning” his family and he “promised to look after his family/step daughter/s.” Unless the presenter was privy to some information which he did not share in the programme, we don’t know what the man’s motives were, what sort of relationship he had with his step daughter/s, what they wanted, or what other events occurred in his or their life which led him to make the decisions he made.
I just felt that the presenter was a bit harsh in some of his comments. ;)
-
Hi Ruskie
Agree wholeheartedly with both your sets of comments! He seems to impose his feelings about various situations as if they were fact - For example we were told that there was no police force but in the next breath how harsh it was for the two boys to be up 'before the beak'. How do we know that the boys were not part of some 'Fagin' like gang (as in Oliver Twist!) perhaps this type of larceny was rife in the area! They may have been caught before and let off with a warning (btw - the lad probs had a better life in Tasmania!)
I was also interested that he did not think that finding a 'mullatto' person would be usual. Given Newcastle and its sea faring history I would have thought it a very cosmopolitan place, with lots of ethnicity's coming into contact via the seafarers coming and going from the port?
I also find it an odd way to research (starting with a field...moving to 2019) I guess doing family history research my mind is programmed from starting from the here and now and working backward. :-\
CD
-
I hope I didn't come across as being too critical of the presenter (I tried to hold back a bit ;) ), but I'm glad I am not alone in my thoughts about some of the conclusions he jumps to. :)
-
Due to my 'historical' interests... I enjoyed the programme.. but did find his statements regarding the Police and Mulatto a little dumb.. as is said earlier... uhm... a big sea port???
But yes some interesting bits and pieces and a pleasant enough chap...
Need more family information.. I am sure more could be found about the umbrella boys.
And the Doctor that seemingly only took a half interest in his job at the Workhouse.
But the wonderful Slug man.. his life must have been full of anecdotes... loved his book ---
That is all my immediate memory remembers... so I will watch it again to take it all in... fully.
worth while.
I then turned over and watched a recording of 'Murder in my Family' that too was interesting.
xin
-
But the wonderful Slug man.. his life must have been full of anecdotes... loved his book ---
The ‘Lit. and Phil.’ where you saw him looking at the book is the most wonderful place.
http://www.litandphil.org.uk/information/about-us/
-
and so wants to investigate them further. So, I guess interesting, but not I feel directly related to the history of the house. ... with the Liverpool house ... he kept going 'off piste'.
To me it is the political, economic & social history which is the most interesting feature of the programmes; in a way the house and its residents are just hooks for hanging these on. By doing this the presenter can in fact deal with more than a middle layer of society.
I agree in being critical with some of his judgements using today's values - talking about the boys in the dock as being children - 14 yr olds were of working age at that time; and of making his musings about people's motives and emotions appear as fact.
-
But the wonderful Slug man.. his life must have been full of anecdotes... loved his book ---
The ‘Lit. and Phil.’ where you saw him looking at the book is the most wonderful place.
http://www.litandphil.org.uk/information/about-us/
It looks amazing JenB.
I think I will have to stop reading this thread now - I haven't seen the new series yet and don't want to spoil any surprises. :)
Josey, I think maybe he could be called "opinionated"? ;) :)
-
I watched this, as I watched the first series, hoping it would be good, it seemed such a good premise to build a programme or series around.
But I feel the same minor irritations with the presenter that others have mentioned ... and the jumping around .... and the tinkly music, with no real need or connection.... getting me just the same as the first time. I also was surprised the presenter was not as aware of the racial mix likely in a port area at that time. I also felt the "surgeon" came over as less than competent - wonder what his private practice was like?
I'm fascinated by the physical changes and structures of houses and the way they move up and down the social scale, and was really prepared to give this a go, but sadly I can already feel my interest waning...
-
oh yes
'Lit and Phil' is that short for Literature and Philosphy ? (tired head)
xin
-
oh yes
'Lit and Phil' is that short for Literature and Philosphy ? (tired head)
You weren't paying attention last night ;D
The full title is the The Literary and Philosophical Society of Newcastle upon Tyne, but it's always locally known as the Lit & Phil.
-
Ah... Right.. no full attention diverted as there was ..... let me say a 'discussion' as to whether we watched the 'Pullitzer Prize' or this.. I won but had to watch quietly :) :)
xin
-
I enjoyed this with the same reservations as others. But felt he could have added more.
He said who the land was sold to but not who owned the land? Why was it called Ravensworth Terrace?
It turns out the 1st Baron Ravensworth http://bit.ly/2KlV0q1 was a coal mining magnate and uncle of Alice Liddell of Alice in Wonderland fame photographed as well by Lewis Carroll! Ravensworth was also patron and employer of George Stephenson whose family was mentioned in the programme as fellow residents in the terrace alongside the Swan ship building family (don’t know if Joseph Swan http://bit.ly/JosephSwan credited as the inventor of the light bulb was of the same family but he first demo’ed his invention st Newcastle Literary & Philosophical Society!).
Which makes it a little strange that he skipped over Richard Swan the first owner of no 5!
Entirely agree that 14 years old was working age. Even the first education legislation had children leaving school at 10 or 11! Also queried how rare mixed race was in a port. Of course with youngsters one does wonder who the mother/parents were? And maybe they were stranded cabin boys? Or not. It made me investigate more about umbrellas tho’ as, although I have an ancestor who made umbrellas, I’ve never looked into it. It’s seems umbrellas were a luxury item which also could be used as a mainly defensive weapon and also as an essential item for photographers!
It seems Joshua Alder took a fall with his investment in a local regional bank but was kept afloat by his friends and had an able companion in his sister who was more than a housekeeper according to the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography http://bit.ly/JoshuaAlder accompanied and assisted him. A bit like poet William Wordsworth and his sister Dorothy who received a grant from the Civil List at the same time as Joshua Alder.
And the medic also seems to have been kept afloat blaming pensionless women workers for his predicament.
I did wonder whether the pension/insurance cartels of shipping and the navy had come on land and professionals and the merchant class had similar forms of insurance/pension arrangements with an interest in keeping colleagues afloat and helped fuel the development of these housing booms?
-
I was surprised at the Size of pension from Civil List given to Joshua Alder.
I was also surprised that his sister had Independent means.
Larger houses have both staff and family, so there is a mix of poor and wealth.
I would have liked to see detail of auction or private sale of house when it was changing hands.
Loved the programme, did not see any of first series.
Jfch
-
Given that the presenter, David Olusoga, is a historian, presumably he was fully aware of all the additional detail that he and the researchers found - you can only assume that in order to achieve the target running time, the team were subject to editorial restraints and had to cut back on a number of interesting elements.
Probably a joint decision, with the programme's producer having the final call on what went in, and what didn't.
It's always the same - in Who Do You Think You Are, we're all shouting at the screen when we spot those interesting elements on a (briefly shown) Census entry, which are not then subsequently covered.
And these issues about what was acceptable in previous years are all difficult. I mentioned before that it's possible to query ancestors' judgements in either a moderate way ('one might wonder if he ever considered....') rather than with the merit of hindsight.
Those umbrella-stealing boys were 14, and evidently had had to look after themselves for some time in an era where children did start work early. But anyone who's met a 14 year old knows that though they may give the appearance of maturity, they aren't grown up (whether in the Victorian age or now).
And I bet the lawyer who insisted (doubtless for justifiable reasons in his own mind) that they be tried, knowing they'd likely be transported, would have regarded his own children as far too young at 14 to go through something like that. One law.....and all that.
We perhaps shouldn't judge, but we can learn.
-
Interesting points, goldnutmeg. And welcome to rootschat :).
I agree IgorStrav, time available limits range and detail. Probably every tenant & their stories in each episode could fill a programme of their own.
It made me investigate more about umbrellas tho’ as, although I have an ancestor who made umbrellas,
Off topic I know -but I also have umbrella making ancestors [from 1810 - 1920s]. I have a few fascinating books about the subject. When you have made 2 more posts goldnutmeg - just reply twice more to this post if you like - we could exchange a personal message (PM) and I can give you the references.
-
I agree IgorStrav, time available limits range and detail. Probably each of the tenants & stories in each episode could fill a programme of their own.
They could gain a lot more time if they didn’t keep repeating things, and having that long winded introduction
-
I really enjoyed the programme. It must be a difficult decision for the producers as to which bits to include and which bits to leave out. They have to make the programme enjoyable for the general public. I like the presenter and thank goodness he doesn't feel the need to dress up in period costume or try out activities as some presenters do! I find the social history of each period of time very interesting too. All in all a definite thumbs up from me
Chris
-
The Alders were the children of Joshua Alder, a Cheesemonger and his wife Mary. Joshua senior's will is not online, but that of his widow Mary is. She left £1200 , plus a half share in all her household goods and a further £400 secured in mortgaged properties to Mary.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6QDX-TH?cc=2358715
-
Have tried googling but was No 5 just at the end of a terrace - it looks as if it is joined to some sort of renovated industrial building rather than similar houses.
Pheno
-
On one of the maps which appeared too quickly, I thought I saw the word ‘synagogue’ on the adjoining site.
-
It looks as though Ravensworth Terrace Synagogue used to be joined on, but according to Me Google it closed in 1969
Chris
added: Looks like it's an advertising agency now
-
Thoroughly enjoyable programme.
We did wonder about the property next door, which was quickly spotted by Ainslie.
It looks like it may have been renovated about 1924 when it opened as a synagoue., as they were built as a terrace.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=synagogue+ravensworth+terrace&so
-
Hi all
Some of you might be interested in this blog by Northumberland Archives which tells the story of Nos 6-8 Ravensworth Terrace:
https://www.northumberlandarchives.com/2019/04/10/diocesan-training-home-refuge-for-friendless-girls-ravensworth-terrace-newcastle-upon-tyne/
CD
-
That`s very interesting, the whole row could have been included !!!
-
Thoroughly enjoyable programme.
We did wonder about the property next door, which was quickly spotted by Ainslie.
It looks like it may have been renovated about 1924 when it opened as a synagoue., as they were built as a terrace.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=synagogue+ravensworth+terrace&so
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=19&lat=54.9711&lon=-1.6272&layers=168&right=BingHyb
Looking at the continuation of the terrace beyond, the thing in the middle looks to have been remodelled/clad or generally messed about with at some point. You would expect that it would have originally looked like the rest of the terrace.
-
What a pity the earliest ownership, the Lewis Carol link, the use of the adjacent properties, etc was not followed up! All at least as interesting as the stuff that "made the cut".
We wondered if the slug illustrations had been done by the chap himself, or his spinster sister?
-
I enjoy this programme too, hope they do more.
-
It looks like it may have been renovated about 1924 when it opened as a synagoue., as they were built as a terrace.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=synagogue+ravensworth+terrace&so
Yes, it seems that the re-build of the next-door houses took place in the 1920's.
Conversion of a Victorian Terrace (formerly a Diocesan Home for Girls, HER 10686) by Marcus Kenneth Glass in 1924-5. It was almost an entire rebuild. The houses had been left to the Newcastle United Hebrew Congregation. The building is cement rendered and painted cream with bands of red brick. Its façade has two tiers of tall round-headed windows and a doorway at the western end. The synagogue closed in 1969 and reopened as a design studio in 1981. The Luhot (Tablets of the Law, double-headed stone bearing an abbreviated form of the Ten Commandments) outside has been painted out. A large Star of David window over the main entrance remains however. Totally refurbished inside in 1997.
http://twsitelines.info/SMR/10848
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01nn7/
-
Given that the presenter, David Olusoga, is a historian, presumably he was fully aware of all the additional detail that he and the researchers found - you can only assume that in order to achieve the target running time, the team were subject to editorial restraints and had to cut back on a number of interesting elements.
<<Of course I totally agree with you on that!! but that there are ways of summing up stuff in a phrase, even so, and it’s not always a question of amount of content but emphasis. So he skipped over the first Swan but still mentioned the Swan family later (without even a brief comment over the earlier Swan) as well as George Stephenson’s family (without mentioning even briefly that Baron Ravensworth was his employer and patron). I’m certain he knows all this but some of his points did seem like assumptions while others with more evidence were not mentioned or followed up. The half hints & over emphases did get a little irritating, as someone has said. It is an interesting programme nevertheless. Perhaps something happened in the editing?>
-
Interesting points, goldnutmeg. And welcome to rootschat :).
I agree IgorStrav, time available limits range and detail. Probably every tenant & their stories in each episode could fill a programme of their own.
It made me investigate more about umbrellas tho’ as, although I have an ancestor who made umbrellas,
Off topic I know -but I also have umbrella making ancestors [from 1810 - 1920s]. I have a few fascinating books about the subject. When you have made 2 more posts goldnutmeg - just reply twice more to this post if you like - we could exchange a personal message (PM) and I can give you the references.
Hi there, I’m not such a newbie but have returned after a long time. I had to do ‘forgot password’ and it has me down now as a newbie! Makes me feel young again! ;) :D lol I’d love to know more about — umbrellas! Thank you!!! :D https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1tfv8Jvp3R0 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1tfv8Jvp3R0)
-
The Alders were the children of Joshua Alder, a Cheesemonger and his wife Mary. Joshua senior's will is not online, but that of his widow Mary is. She left £1200 , plus a half share in all her household goods and a further £400 secured in mortgaged properties to Mary.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6QDX-TH?cc=2358715
It suddenly occurred to me that one source of these provision merchants’ income was the provisions for ships. Of course didn’t it all come from the expansion and heyday of Empire as was the export of convicts to Australia, South Africa and also to the USA when it was a colony and the accompanying growth of financial companies and financial instruments. Of course the programme couldn’t cover all that but it seemed an omission to overlook Baron Ravensworth, mining magnate, yet mention coal and Newcastle? Could the early residents all have had connections to the Ravensworth household? Maybe the clues are in the mortgages, if that is what they used? After all, until relatively recently only companies and tradespeople had bank accounts. Didn’t others keep their savings elsewhere?
-
Hi Ruskie
Agree wholeheartedly with both your sets of comments! He seems to impose his feelings about various situations as if they were fact - For example we were told that there was no police force but in the next breath how harsh it was for the two boys to be up 'before the beak'. How do we know that the boys were not part of some 'Fagin' like gang (as in Oliver Twist!) perhaps this type of larceny was rife in the area! They may have been caught before and let off with a warning (btw - the lad probs had a better life in Tasmania!)
I waited to see whether there were any other posts on this topic as I had a few in a row. But since no one else has posted ...
In large part inspired by this programme and also Josey who also has umbrella makers in the family, I decided to do a bit more googling. Umbrella making was by no means a monopoly but one famous maker was James R Smith and there is still a Victorian umbrella shop bearing the name in New Oxford Street, London which is a landmark I used to pass on myway to work. So I did a google and found a history
https://lapada.org/art-and-antiques/gentlemans-walking-stick-1/
‘In 1830 James Smith founded the famous firm of James Smith and Sons at Foubert Place in London’s West End. His son moved the business to New Oxford Street in 1857; he also opened six other businesses including a hatter’s and a barbershop. He had eight sons and a daughter, and when he moved to Tasmania with two of his sons to take up farming, he left the others to run the business at home. In 1930 it was his grandson Mr Mesger (great grandson of the founder) who moved back from Tasmania to take over the running of the business.’
Allied with this:
‘https://www.european-umbrellas.com/umbrella-history.html
‘Due in some part to tariff-free raw materials from its colonies, England was able to produce inexpensive umbrellas - with production costs often below a penny. In Charles Dickens’ novel "The Pickwick Papers" voters in Eatonswill were bribed with expensive gifts for their wives in the form of "45 green umbrellas for seven shillings and sixpence".’
And finally in Tasmania itself
https://www.nationaltrust.org.au/places/old-umbrella-shop/
Looking up the Shott family who opened up the umbrella shop in 1920, I found they previously made hardwood souvenirs and Tasmania is famed for its huge hardwood forests.
I did wonder whether, although the manufacture of umbrellas was not a monopoly, the export of wood from Tasmania was in the hands of only a few families?
-
I did wonder if descendants of the two boys would be here on Rootschat! (Stranger things have happened)
I think that time is a huge constraint on what can be shown on tv, but personally it has given me some ideas for research of my own family tree! Dare I say it, that many of us have experience in family history, and the programme is, maybe, directed at those who have no knowledge of looking into family history and it is there for pure entertainment. We are, therefore, critical when it dos not come up to our expectations! - And yes, it is frustrating !
FS
-
Watched it last night (BBC iPlayer). Wish I had seen the previous series, but it was very enjoyable.
Am also a fan of Who do you Think you Are?
Ms_Canuck
-
I haven’t seen this series yet, but if the boy’s names were given there may be records of them in Tasmanian convict records. It woukd be interesting to see what became of them..
-
I haven’t seen this series yet, but if the boy’s names were given there may be records of them in Tasmanian convict records. It woukd be interesting to see what became of them..
Richard Ferguson and Edward Stuart both 14 in 1835. The presenter said it was hard to find much on Edward but did tell you what happened to Richard until he gained his freedom. (Richard was the mulatto or half cast - both terms used in the programme)
-
Thanks David. Maybe rootschatters will be able to find more about Edward than the presenter. ;)
There may have been more of a story to be woven around Richard’s life than Edwards, so more effort was made? :-\
I haven’t looked for some time but I think FindMyPast are fairly good for convict records.
-
Edward to NSW on the Lady Kennaway arr 12 Oct 1836
(Richard was to Tasmania as per programme)
Edward cert of freedom - is it really dated 1847? Or does that relate to something else.
5ft 5, sallow complexion brown hair and grey eyes. Lots of tattoos and scars.
Has him slightly older with dob of 1817 rather than 1821
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record/browse?id=anz%2fausrec%2f1017%2f00654
For those with Ancestry . They say its 1844 but the two fours are not alike.
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1689&h=27977&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=AiN3&_phstart=successSource
-
Edward to NSW on the Lady Kennaway arr 12 Oct 1836
(Richard was to Tasmania as per programme)
Edward cert of freedom - is it really dated 1847? Or does that relate to something else.
5ft 5, sallow complexion brown hair and grey eyes. Lots of tattoos and scars.
Has him slightly older with dob of 1817 rather than 1821
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record/browse?id=anz%2fausrec%2f1017%2f00654
For those with Ancestry . They say its 1844 but the two fours are not alike.
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1689&h=27977&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=AiN3&_phstart=successSource
There are a couple of records on Ancestry http://ancstry.me/2Kz6feS
He was Roman Catholic, from Newcastle and a miner. Sallow complexion, grey eyes, brown hair. ‘A perpendicular scar betwixt the eyebrows, scar outer corner of left eyebrow, anchor, sun, heart and darts. D and dot back of right hand, sun and mermaid, inside lower left arm, T back of left hand.’
I also found a newspaper announcement in 1869 for the arrest of Edward Stuart for absenting himself from hired service aged 50. It states there he is an Irishman (could be he was born in Ireland and then moved to Newcastle). I found it but now can’t find it again!
-
also found a newspaper announcement in 1869 for the arrest of Edward Stuart for absenting himself from hired service aged 50. It states there he is an Irishman (could be he was born in Ireland and then moved to Newcastle). I found it but now can’t find it again!
Physical description doesn’t match. I think this is a different man.
5ft 8 or 9. Cf 5ft 5
Light hair cf Brown hair
And no mention of all the tattoos
-
also found a newspaper announcement in 1869 for the arrest of Edward Stuart for absenting himself from hired service aged 50. It states there he is an Irishman (could be he was born in Ireland and then moved to Newcastle). I found it but now can’t find it again!
Physical description doesn’t match. I think this is a different man.
5ft 8 or 9. Cf 5ft 5
Light hair cf Brown hair
And no mention of all the tattoos
Hi,
Can you put the link or pm me if more appropriate?
-
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60883/44407_b219514-00160?pid=23454&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D60883%26h%3D23454%26tid%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DPLi1%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=PLi1&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true
-
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60883/44407_b219514-00160?pid=23454&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D60883%26h%3D23454%26tid%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DPLi1%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=PLi1&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true
Thanks for that! I take your point but I don’t think you can totally rule this one out. He’s the right age and it sounds as if the master always saw him fully clothed (no,no I don’t mean that!!!) and so the tattoos were not prominent. Jus’ speculatin’ ... :)
-
Playing the devils advocate..
If he was freed in NSW why would he go to Tasmania?
-
For non-Brit's the first series is available online:
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6j0ipw (https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6j0ipw)
-
Playing the devils advocate..
If he was freed in NSW why would he go to Tasmania?
If you google the surname of the Tasmanian employer, Lillico, it’s a family from Scotland and Northumbria including Newcastle upon Tyne ... Jus’ speculatin’ ...
-
They could have talked about this for a good 5 minutes on the programme. :)
-
I watched this on catchup this afternoon. A couple of questions and points occurred to me.
This thread answers all my questions, and (mainly) agreed with my points.
Thanks to all - for unknowingly helping me!
BugBear
-
They could have talked about this for a good 5 minutes on the programme. :)
;) ‘Richard was transported to Van Diemansland, now Tasmania, which was a major exporter - tariff free as part of the Empire - of wood including ironically - for umbrellas ... [rest of Richard’s story]. The newspaper seems to have embellished Stuart’s story. He was a 16 year old miner described in later paperwork as [Stuart’s description]. He may be the Edward Stuart, freed by this time, who at the age of 50 worked for another family from the North East but absconded from his work as a hired hand and, according to the local newspaper, was on the run from the law.’ :)
Obviously the presenter is a bone fide historian who could have done the research and written the script. But he is also a ‘poster boy’ and I suspect may have been handed a script which he then executed very convincingly. I doubt whether bone fide archivists etc would have spiced up the script with fictional Dickensian tabloid details. But somewhere someone may have done the deed (‘It doesn’t matter, they’re all dead...’) between the research and the finished script ...
-
Thanks Nova67 for link to previous series.
I got to watch two episodes on a cold & wet Sunday morning.
Excellent series.
Jfch
-
I am actually watching the first series on You Tube
-
For us down unders has episode 2 shown yet? Any further challenges to solve?
-
For us down unders has episode 2 shown yet? Any further challenges to solve?
Yes shown on Monday 15 April. No real challenges I think although several grandchildren of a family that fell on difficult times ended up in NZ and Aus. It seems the comfortably off grandmother sent them there to get a new start in life and did provide for them financially.
What seems to be the main thread is at
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=811141.63
but no one seems to have felt the need to comment on this episode. Funnily enough I thought the second episode was better than the first, still what do I Know ….. ;)
-
Did I overlook something in both programmes? Did the residents of the house own or rent? The presenter brought up about the landlords in the second episode, seeming to assume we knew who they were?
Interesting that Dr Hardcastle’s wife was Mary Colbeck’s daughter. Her other son-in-law was a timber merchant before entering in the bottling trade - touching wood once again, altho’ not necessarily for brollies! :)
His name was Frederick Swan Todd - only one ‘n’ but still wonder whether he was connected to the Swann shipping family altho’ it may be a coincidence. Some of the children went to New Zealand and Australia which may mean there were relatives there already.
Did anybody catch the middle name or surname of the fine upstanding pillar of the community solicitor who Freddy was convicted of stabbing? Something beginning with ‘T’? I got the Gilbert bit!
-
Did anybody catch the middle name or surname of the fine upstanding pillar of the community solicitor who Freddy was convicted of stabbing? Something beginning with ‘T’? I got the Gilbert bit!
The solicitor's name was George Tallantyre Gibson.
Stan
-
Did anybody catch the middle name or surname of the fine upstanding pillar of the community solicitor who Freddy was convicted of stabbing? Something beginning with ‘T’? I got the Gilbert bit!
The solicitor's name was George Tallantyre Gibson.
Stan
Hey, thanks Stan!
-
The Electoral Registers have George Tallentire Gibson
Stan
-
The Electoral Registers have George Tallentire Gibson
Stan
Yes. Thanks again! Info on this page about the spellings (the ‘y’ is probably correct) http://tallentire.one-name.net/
‘Most living TALLANTIREs and TALLONTIREs appear to be descended directly from the Cumbrian family. TALLANTYREs also originate from Cumbria, or from a branch which settled in Haltwhistle, Northumberland before 1700.
‘The TALLENTYRE variant, on the other hand, originates from Teesdale families or from a branch which settled in Ravensworth, North Yorkshire in the mid-1700s’
Blimey is 5 Ravensworth Terrace part of a Baron Ravensworth tontine?!!! ;)
‘The surname TALINTYRE is used only by the descendants of a family from Newcastle upon Tyne.’
-
Not sure, but wasn`t Hannah Hauxwell connected to the Tallentires ?
I though this second epsiode covered a lot of stories including spititualism. I didn`t realise that there had been so much glassmaking in Newcastle.
-
Hi davidft,
I thought this episode a lot more interesting also, although I did not watch it out completely. I still think he was making quite a lot of assumptions with regard to the grandchildren. I was not sure about the fact that 2 or 3 of the younger children had been put up for adoption but later we were told that all the grandchildren had been mentioned in the Grandmother's Will. Given they may have been adopted I can't understand how they might have benefited from her Will. I can understand how the older children who had gone to Aus may have benefited. Anyway, I changed over half way to watch the new show called GHOSTS made by the Horrible Histories lot. I just thought David was going to annoy me with more assumptions. :P The premise of Ghosts is quite funny.
CD
-
I was not sure about the fact that 2 or 3 of the younger children had been put up for adoption
The three youngest children were sent to Orphanages, not put up for adoption. Seven of the nine grandchildren emigrated, and two died in England
Stan
-
Not sure, but wasn`t Hannah Hauxwell connected to the Tallentires ?
I though this second epsiode covered a lot of stories including spititualism. I didn`t realise that there had been so much glassmaking in Newcastle.
I confess to not having heard of Hannah Hauxwell until now but looking up her obit https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2018/feb/01/hannah-hauxwell-obituary
You’re correct - her mother was Lydia Tallentire!
There appears to be two threads on this programme - it’s a shame they can’t be amalgamated?
-
"Given they may have been adopted " So you know that that weren't? They were at the mercy of the institution where they were placed. And, yes before you advise further I do know that 'official' adoption was not in place before 1927
CD
-
Ten months after the death of Margaret Todd, in 1867, Mary Colbeck sold the last of her properties and listed all nine of her grandchildren who would benefit from the sale. The list shown has all the grandchildren's surnames as Todd, so no sign of adoption. According to the programme the seven used the money from the Grandmother to emigrate to Australia or New Zealand.
Stan
-
There is a very wealthy ( but also very private) family in NZ. “The Todd Family”. I wonder......
-
I was interested in the glassmaking info.
My 2x gt grandfather was born in Newcastle. His father was a glassmaker.
At one time they lived on Glasshouse Bridge.
Kooky
-
I was interested in the glassmaking info.
My 2x gt grandfather was born in Newcastle. His father was a glassmaker.
At one time they lived on Glasshouse Bridge.
Kooky
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/look-back-newcastles-historic-glass-1401520.amp
https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Cooksons
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Newcastle_upon_Tyne#Glassmaking
https://englandsnortheast.co.uk/ChemicalsandGlass.html
-
With regard to Colbeck naming each of her grandchildren in the sale of her property; this may have been done well before she died. Colbeck died in 1874 by which time at least one of the grandchildren had died, and any others may have married or 'been adopted' by another family, but they would still appear in the paperwork/Will under the names they were known by when the Will/paperwork was drawn up. Stan points out the programme says 7 of the grandchildren emigrated to Aus or NZ. However, they may have done this independently of each other. Perhaps more detailed information has ended up on the cutting room floor. Wouldn't it be interesting if the wealthy Todds' in NZ descended from the bunch?
CD
-
All sorts of suppositions and assumptions can be made about the family, but the only fact that was made in the programme was that the three youngest children were sent to Orphanages, there is no mention of adoption.
Stan
-
I am enjoying - because it is opening up a different view for me...
I love Historical exploration of all kinds...
xin
-
can these two threads be added together please :) I am confused
xin
Threads merged.
-
Thanks Goldnutmeg for the glass making links :)
I will check them all tomorrow!
Kooky
-
thanks for the merge... will re-digest
xin
-
Just watching this on catch up - love the idea of the programme itself but the presenter is majorly annoying me!! My "favourite" assumption of his what that the coroner man (one of the first occupants) who died of a fit after two days of having tremors was obviously an alcoholic!!! Because obviously alcoholism is the only thing that causes fits and as we all know, those early death certs are always bang on with their causes of death!!! 🙄 Rant over lol I'm still gunna watch the rest of the programme though, Lisa
-
I was shaking my head over that too lisalucie. I have only seen the first episode so far and will probably persevere with the series, though I am finding him increasingly irritating. :-\
-
I liked the part with the unveiling of the plaque to Alder. He was the one to identify & name tiny sea creatures. The artwork in his books was exceptional.
Jfch
-
I was shaking my head over that too lisalucie. I have only seen the first episode so far and will probably persevere with the series, though I am finding him increasingly irritating. :-\
Although I had some minor niggles, overall I found the entire series fascinating, and (in my opinion) there are many far, far more irritating presenters than David Olusoga.
-
Although I had some minor niggles, overall I found the entire series fascinating, and (in my opinion) there are many far, far more irritating presenters than David Olusoga.
Totally agree, Jennifer.
Maybe living in the area made it more interesting. I thought it was far better than the Liverpool one; perhaps the residents had better histories.
I learnt some new little nuggets of history about N/C and I've lived here 'off and on' since the late 1960s - for e.g. I didn't know that Dukes Moor was where the old airport was :)
-
Just watching this on catch up - love the idea of the programme itself but the presenter is majorly annoying me!! My "favourite" assumption of his what that the coroner man (one of the first occupants) who died of a fit after two days of having tremors was obviously an alcoholic!!! Because obviously alcoholism is the only thing that causes fits and as we all know, those early death certs are always bang on with their causes of death!!! 🙄 Rant over lol I'm still gunna watch the rest of the programme though, Lisa
You need to watch again. Yes, cause of death was an epileptic fit, but after two days of "delirium tremens," which is a symptom of alcoholism. So the "annoying presenter" was quite correct!
-
I`ve enjoyed both series; I think we have to remember the time period that is covered and all the work that goes into it. There is most likely a team of researchers involved, but they are needed, just look at the amount of previous residents lives that were uncovered.
-
[quote author=lisalucie link=topic=810385.msg6726660#msg6726660 date=1556659356
You need to watch again. Yes, cause of death was an epileptic fit, but after two days of "delirium tremens," which is a symptom of alcoholism. So the "annoying presenter" was quite correct!
Fair enough - and yes the "dt's" are a symptom of alcohol withdrawal but I just felt that - as with the previous series - he makes major assumptions and judgments based on (from the bits we are shown anyway) very little information....and also judgments from today's perspectives. However it's just my opinion for what it's worth, and I'll still continue to watch it. Lisa
-
[quote author=lisalucie link=topic=810385.msg6726660#msg6726660 date=1556659356
You need to watch again. Yes, cause of death was an epileptic fit, but after two days of "delirium tremens," which is a symptom of alcoholism. So the "annoying presenter" was quite correct!
Fair enough - and yes the "dt's" are a symptom of alcohol withdrawal but I just felt that - as with the previous series - he makes major assumptions and judgments based on (from the bits we are shown anyway) very little information....and also judgments from today's perspectives. However it's just my opinion for what it's worth, and I'll still continue to watch it. Lisa
BIB - I fully agree with you there, and I don't think I am alone from what others have said. I think he is a poorer presenter because of this and his very obvious hang ups but like you I put them aside and still watch as I am interested in the histories of the properties shown in the series
-
Could you please specify the "very obvious hang ups " to which you refer? I think we must have been watching completely different programmes. I have found him a highly engaging presenter and hope the series returns in another location in the future.
William
-
Could you please specify the "very obvious hang ups " to which you refer? I think we must have been watching completely different programmes. I have found him a highly engaging presenter and hope the series returns in another location in the future.
William
No as all that will do is lead to the thread descending into arguments and me getting banned again.
-
Well I for one have enjoyed this series...I found the presenter engaging.
The number of people who have lived in the house over the past 200 years is staggering and to have researched them all must have been a mammoth task. Then they had to decide which ones to follow up in a little more depth even harder. I think they did a good job.
I also enjoyed hearing from the relatives of some of the house occupants interesting. The final episode in particular with the NCO Bell who had written those diaries I found emotional... they said they'd come from other members of his family so did his son not know about them I wonder?
The mystery of the last lady and older husband I also found very touching and seeing all the photos provided by a friend quite revealing. At least they got to the bottom of that mystery.
The programme is made for the wider population who are not necessarily looking at it with the eyes of being a family researcher and just enjoying it for what it is.
It's very easy to be critical when things are not covered to a fuller extent as we would all want but it has made some people on here do further research and enlighten us all further, not everyone would want such in depth information!
I hope there is another series that will reveal more about the lives lived in some of the older properties. The social history about each area helps with our own research too... as mentioned on here that some who have lived in N/C didn't know some of the info given... so it's not all bad!
Caroline
P.S. I looked up in the 1939 Register who had lived in my daughters house as I was interested as the houses were built in the 1930's... her road is Blondin Ave the next one is Niagara Ave! I would love to know the significance of those names in Ealing in the 1930's!
-
P.S. I looked up in the 1939 Register who had lived in my daughters house as I was interested as the houses were built in the 1930's... her road is Blondin Ave the next one is Niagara Ave! I would love to know the significance of those names in Ealing in the 1930's!
Caroline,
According to Wikipedia: "Blondin died of diabetes at his "Niagara House" in Ealing, London, on 22 February 1897, at age 72 and was buried in Kensal Green Cemetery."
A side by side map here:
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=19&lat=51.4977&lon=-0.3139&layers=168&right=BingHyb
which shows that Niagara House seems to have been located between Blondin Ave and Niagara Ave stand today.
Possibly, the house demolished (sadly), land subdivided, and houses built on the site in the 30s hence the names Blondin and Niagara?
Added: sorry this is a bit off topic.
-
Ruskie
Thanks so much for sending me the details about Blondin... I'd no idea that he'd lived in Ealing!
Great research.. should have done some myself really but much appreciated. I'll look into it a bit more now, my grandsons will be thrilled with the information.
As you say abit off topic but still about houses and what they used to be!
Caroline
-
I, too, have been encouraged to research the houses my family have occupied (in addition to the "normal" pursuit of family history!)
Unfortunately, only the first house my parents had is old enough to be on the 1939 - I lived there until I was 6 - but it will be an interesting tangent to go off onto.
I am also going make a start on the house my grandparents lived in - and they were there in 1939 along with my Dad.
Both houses are still standing, so I can see them on up to date references as well.
FS
-
I really enjoyed the series and the presenter. It was an area of Newcastle I knew nothing about.
-
Yes regarding the son not knowing his half sibs...
I think that is so.. or he just didnt want to know.
shame
ps What beautiful neat hand writing in the diaries..
xin
-
A fascinating programme which had my attention the whole time.
I really enjoyed the social history around the residents. I learnt a lot and that is what television is supposed to do surely?
Judy
-
Still got the last episode to watch but am so enjoying it.
Wouldn't we all love a programme like that about our own house history.
-
What's the betting that the next house will be in Manchester. He came to Tyneside from Ghana as a youngster. Went to University in Liverpool and is now a Prof at Manchester :D
-
oh yes... I wish he would travel the UK its a great programme.. and much needed from the 'dross' that is always readily available.
xin
-
Possibly Didsbury area? Lot of scope there.
-
I hope Deansgate and Spitalfield, that's where a lot of my Ancestors came from.
-
What's the betting that the next house will be in Manchester. He came to Tyneside from Ghana as a youngster. Went to University in Liverpool and is now a Prof at Manchester :D
In next weeks Radio Times they say that they are currently filming the next series.....in Bristol!
;D
-
He slipped a bit south then. Maybe a posh house in Clifton ;D
-
... be nice to see a country house rather than a town house .... something a bit older perhaps, to mix it up a bit (though probably not the next series if it is in Bristol). :)
Possibly fewer residents passing through country houses rather than town houses ... and with less interesting back stories?
-
Well if the next series is a house in Bristol I have no doubt he will manage to find a house where the odd owner or two were slave owners or dealt in the slave trade
In the first side of the slavery triangle, manufactured goods were shipped to West Africa and exchanged for Africans; the enslaved captives were transported across the Atlantic to the Americas in the Middle Passage under brutal conditions.[46] In the third side of the triangle, plantation goods such as sugar, tobacco, rum, rice, cotton and a few slaves (sold to the aristocracy as house servants) returned across the Atlantic.[46] Some household slaves were baptised in the hope this would mean their freedom in England. The Somersett Case of 1772 clarified that slavery was illegal in England.[47] At the height of the Bristol slave trade from 1700 to 1807, more than 2,000 slave ships carried a conservatively estimated 500,000 people from Africa to slavery in the Americas
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol
-
I'm hoping that the presenter approves of everyone who ever lived in the Bristol house - just to mix it up a bit. :)
-
Well if the next series is a house in Bristol I have no doubt he will manage to find a house where the odd owner or two were slave owners or dealt in the slave trade
+1
BugBear