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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: bevj on Sunday 31 March 19 21:22 BST (UK)
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Hello
Can anyone please help with this record which is a baptism from Cummertrees, Dumfries, in 1807.
Thomas Herbertson the father is my 4 x great grandfather.
Jamsie, daughter of Thos Herbertson and _______ ______ Bapt., Sept. 1st 1807.
ScotlandsPeople have the mother as Birrell, with no Christian name. I can see Birrell, but what is the next word, and where is her Christian name?
(I have never been able to find a Herbertson - Birrell marriage)
Many thanks
Bev
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I think the other word may be Agnes
No it's not!
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The previous year they had a son, George, baptised (on same page as your snip). There is no other name mentioned on that entry but Birrell so I'm thinking that the other word might be where they are living.
Gadget
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Yes, George is my ancestor.
I did have a copy of the baptism record for him too but I can't find it :(
I am at a loss to know why there is no mother's Christian name but yes, I hadn't thought of the abode. Can you make it out? I see Hewries.
Thanks very much
Bev
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Might it be 'Harris'?
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There is a place called Howes just to the SE of Cummertrees but I think it might be in Annan parish :-\
George is a few lines above the entry you've given.
Gadget
Add - most of the other entries have abode in that location on the entry. George's entry doesn't
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Did any of Thomas' children live long enough that they would have statutory death records?
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Here's a snip of George's entry, further up the page.
Add - can't find a marriage!
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I'm a relative beginner at this but it looks like Stewins to me. If it's a capital H it's different from the others on the page.
I agree it's probably the place name, as the final word before “bapt” or “born” does look like a location on a couple of the other records. One seems to be Murraythwaite which is definitely a place in Dumfries. Although I can't find anywhere called Stewins.
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I've just looked at some of the listings on SP and it shows quite a few Birrells as first names.
As I said earlier, most of the other entries have a place of abode after the mother's name.
Gadget
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Here's a map that might be worth searching - I'll go over it too
https://maps.nls.uk/view/75503411
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A fair few of my Scottish Baptsms only name Father..
xin
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Here's a snip of George's entry, further up the page.
Add - can't find a marriage!
Thank you.
I only had the two snips, not the whole page.
This lot are a real mystery. I am sure that if Thomas and Ms Birrell had not been married, the Minister would have added some note about fornication or base born children.
Bbart, I can find no reference to Jamsie after this baptism.
I can't find any other children born to the couple.
I have never found a burial record for George, but he died well before statutory registration came into force. His last child was born in 1839, he isn't to be found in 1841 and in 1851 his wife is a widow.
George's first son and second daughter were called Thomas and Sarah, and there is indeed a Sarah Birrell around the right age, but I had hoped to get some confirmation from these baptisms.
Oh well, thank you for the help, I'll have a good look at the map and see if I can find a likely place.
Bev
P.S. Xinia, the thing is that every other entry has the mother's name, and it's odd that only the surname should be noted down here :(
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Bev, there is one death on SP in 1866:
Margaret Herbertson/Birrell
Age 75
Annan Dumfrieshire
Mother's maiden name Gibson
Have you discounted that one?
Although, there is this 1841 census entry which is a possibility for her:
George Herbertson 65 lab
Margaret Herbertson 50
Mary Herbertson 20
Address: Hawgell, Annan
Maybe the George above is the father in law...or maybe not! Added: 1851 shows her as wife to George.
Monica
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Just a thought, Bev - maybe the Kirk Sessions minutes might have something.
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Bev, there is one death on SP in 1866:
Margaret Herbertson/Birrell
Age 75
Annan Dumfrieshire
Mother's maiden name Gibson
The Margaret Herbertson, who died on 3 August 1866, aged 75, was the widow of a George Herbertson. Address - Howgill Bridge, Annan. Parents - George Birrell, Farmer and Mary MS Gibson, both deceased. Informant - John Herbertson, son, present.
This looks like the 1841 family, Monica
Gadget
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Thank you for your help!
I'm afraid that I'm not going to get anything out of these baptism records :(
My George was a butler. He moved to East Lothian and married there. His wife, daughters and son-in-law were all in the service of the Wemyss family at Gosford House so I think it's a fair bet that he worked there too.
There are a lot of Birrells in Gretna. Could there have been an irregular marriage?
Gadget, where would the Kirk Sessions be stored?
Thanks
Bev
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There are quite a few online at:
https://info.dumgal.gov.uk/HistoricalIndexes/
..but not Cummertrees or Annan, sadly. I had a quick look through the Dumfries ones last night but dozed off so.... :-X I did find some irregular marriage info about my people from Kells there. Also, you might find something here:
http://archives.dumgal.gov.uk/DServe/DServe.exe?dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Index.tcl
I think they would be able to be accessed via the larger Register Offices, as SP records are. I know there was a discussion about them going up on FindMyPast a while ago but nothing had been decided last time I looked. Forfarian would know.
Gadget
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Just found this from the D&G Archive ref that I gave in my last post:
https://tinyurl.com/yxo8xu9a
Unfortunately it only covers 1831-1846. It might have info about burials, etc. that might be relevant.
Add - I put in Cummertrees in the search box and got up this listing:
http://archives.dumgal.gov.uk/DServe/dserve.exe
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Thank you so much.
Something to trawl through!
Bev
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Jamsie, daughter of Thos Herbertson and _______ ______ Bapt., Sept. 1st 1807.
ScotlandsPeople have the mother as Birrell, with no Christian name. I can see Birrell, but what is the next word, and where is her Christian name?
Bev and Gadget...this one has been on my mind today!
Jamsie is Jemma/Jemima! Jemima Herbertson married a John Wilson, grocer by trade. She died in Dumfries in 1897 at the age of 89. Her parents shown below on clip. Thomas less clear but Sarah Birrell it is.
This is her last census entry from 1891:
Jemima Wilson 84 b. Cummertrees
Mary L Wilson 31
James I Wilson 40
John Wilson 26
Mina J Wilson 13 grandchild
Address: 17 Queens Pl Dumfries
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Excellent, Monica :D
Is he* a Farmer - funny rs - also in Sarah
*Thomas
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Bev, I have seen a death quoted on family trees for Sarah Birrell of 10 AUG 1860. Have you followed this up at all. Can't easily see it on SP.
Her last census that I can see is from 1851 - www.scottishindexes.com/51transcript.aspx?houseid=81204067
And from 1841:
Sarah Herbertson 50
Marget Herbertson 24
Jannet Herbertson 22
John Herbertson 20 ag lab
Sarah Herbertson 12
Address: Rigfoot, Cummertrees
Curious about the young Sarah in this entry...as I think she may be the daughter of George Herbertson and Margaret Birrell from earlier...
Monica
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George Herbertson and wife Margaret Birrell in the early censuses:
1841:
George Herbertson 65 lab
Margaret Herbertson 50
Mary Herbertson 20
Address: Hawgell, Annan
And from 1851:
George Herbertson Formerly Cattle Dealer b. Dalton
Margaret Herbertson 60 b. Gretna
Sarah Herbertson 20 daughter b. Cummertrees...this is the Sarah I am curious about
John Herbertson 39 son b. Cummertrees
Jane Herbertson 11 grandchild b. Middlebie
Address: Howgill, Annan
Monica
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Gadget, the death cert you mentioned earlier for Margaret Birrell Herbertson, I wonder if a possible mistake was made on her mother's maiden name?
The Margaret Herbertson, who died on 3 August 1866, aged 75, was the widow of a George Herbertson. Address - Howgill Bridge, Annan. Parents - George Birrell, Farmer and Mary MS Gibson, both deceased. Informant - John Herbertson, son, present.
I am wondering whether brothers married sisters? Therefore, George Herbertson, from Dalton, being brother to Thomas. Their parents being a George Herbertson and Mary Gibson (MI to be found at Dalton Cemetery with their details and also son Thomas's burial with them). Wondering then whether Margaret's son gave his paternal grandmother's name (Mary Gibson) rather than his maternal grandmother's name (Mary Elliot).
Some guesses and assumptions on my part for now ;D
Monica
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Back to one of your original questions, Bev. What was the place name showing on George's birth entry in the OPRs.
I think it is where father Thomas died not too many years later in 1819 - Stenries.
From AKC's transcript of the stone at Dalton Cemetery:
....also of the Congregation of Dumfries also George Herbertson in Twathats who died 2nd February 1800 age 66 also Mary Gibson his spouse who died at Stenries-yet 18 Nov 1815 age 75 and of Thomas Herbertson their son who died at Stenries 1st Sep age 76 also John Herbertson merchant son of above who died at Maxwelltown 9 Dec 1883 age 67.[/b]
I think the age at death of Thomas Herbertson on the stone is obviously a mis transcript or maybe not clear on the stone - https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT1P-NN1
Clip from the 1807 OPR image below. Note the mark under the n is actually the flick of a J from the word below.
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Location of Stenries from late 1700s map (see http://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/parish/Dumfries/Cummertrees)
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Wow, brilliant!!
I will have to take my time and go through all this and compare it with what I have.
I do have that Thomas's father George was married to Mary Gibson and George Birrell was married to Mary Elliot.
And thank you for finding Jamsie for me too! I would never have guessed Jemima. And another son too. Between 1809 and 1821 there must be other children to be found.
What I'm not clear about is if the dates are transcribed correctly, Thomas was born in 1765 and yet had a son in 1821 (and obviously didn't die in 1819!) and was a lot older than Sarah - nearly 20 years older. Unusual but not impossible.
This has really given me something to work on and I'm really grateful for the fact that I haven't got to delete all the Birrells from my tree!
Many thanks to all and I'll get back to you with my findings.
Bev
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As always brilliant help for you on here..
The Birrell name is what has kept me interested...
deep in the depths of my tree I have a George Birrell but probably .. not connected ..
Xin
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There are lots and lots of Birrells, seem to be concentrated in the Gretna area. I have three Georges
Bev