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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Jang on Wednesday 03 April 19 08:31 BST (UK)
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I've come across a family of siblings, all single, living together in Limerick. The two brothers, age 31 and 27, gave their religion as Church of Ireland, their sister, age 25, Catholic, and wondered if this was unusual?
Jan
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Without knowing the family history and specific details I can't be sure, but perhaps it just shows that one of the siblings didn't just blindly follow the religion of his parents. It always amazes me that people, if they are religious just carry on with the religion that they were taught about in their childhood. It seems common sense to see what other religions are available, just like changing your utility suppliers.
Martin
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Thanks Martin, I didn't think to check the rest of the family. The parents were RC but the other daughter born 1882 was Church of Ireland in 1901, like her brothers.
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Are they the same in 1911?
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Not common but also not unusual, often children of a mixed marriage were baptised in one of the churches of either parent along gender lines.
In this case were both parents RC before they married?
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Yes, Heywood, they were the same in 1911.
Sinann, I haven't found the marriage of the parents yet. They were James Lane and Anne Keating, having children from 1867 to 1886 in Limerick.
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Don't see a likely one on in the Civil Reg index so they may have an RC marriage before 1864.
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1901, mother Anne is Catholic.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Limerick/Garrane/Knocknagranshy/1489185/
Is this the family?
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Yes, that's the family. I found Anne's death in Feb 1911 in Knocknagranshy. She was a widow so her husband, James died before then but nothing's coming up in Croom. Perhaps he was Church of Ireland ...
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1901, mother Anne is Catholic.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Limerick/Garrane/Knocknagranshy/1489185/
Is this the family?
Annie was already a widow in 1901. Both sons, aged 22 and 17 were C. of I. as was elder daughter, Katie (19) and a servant. Younger daughter, Annie, aged 14 was R.C. I guess that father was C. of I. If he died in younger daughter's early childhood, mother may have had more influence over younger daughter's religious upbringing. On the other hand the parents may have decided that the girls would be Catholic but elder daughter preferred otherwise. As well as searching for baptisms of the girls as babies, look for possible later baptisms.
"The role of Ne Temere in the decline of an Irish custom regarding the religious affiliation of the children of mixed marriages" by Jesse Buck sets out the argument that the 1908 promulgation of "Ne Temere" the Papal decree on marriage led to a decline in mixed marriages and in the custom of sons of those marriages following the father's religious affiliation and daughters, that of the mother.
The custom may have been in part a remnant of penal laws when Catholics were discriminated against when it came to land ownership, inheritance and professional life.
One study I read showed that children of a mixed marriage were more likely to be R.C. if the mother was Catholic. (I can't recall name of the study or dates.)
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Thanks Maiden Stone, that makes it a lot clearer.
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There was a daughter Margaret 1877. It would be interesting to see which church she was baptised.
I can't see a birth registration for Katie/Catherine or a marriage registration for parents in Ireland. Who was eldest child?
Informant of 3 births was Elizabeth/Eliza/Lizzie Lane, sister. Was she sister of the babies or of the father?
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Baptism Fedamore Parish - Catholic - I have translated from Latin
2nd June 1867
Richard - parents James Lane Protestant and Ann Keating. Sponsors Edmond Keating and Margaret Keating
14th November 1868
Elizabeth -parents James Lane and Ann Keating. Sponsors Edmund Keating and Catharine Moloney.
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Links for Heywood's baptism finds on Catholic registers
Richard LINK (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634982#page/135/mode/1up) middle of left hand page Jun 02 1867
Elizabeth LINK (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634982#page/137/mode/1up) middle of left hand page Nov 16 1868
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Links for Heywood's baptism finds on Catholic registers
Richard LINK (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634982#page/135/mode/1up) middle of left hand page Jun 02 1867
Elizabeth LINK (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634982#page/137/mode/1up) middle of left hand page Nov 16 1868
Thanks. I got them from another site and then had to go and make the meal :)
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Here is James Lane in the Calendar of Wills. Death given as 19th July 1900 but I haven’t found the death :-\
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014912/005014912_00136.pdf
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Do think this could be him - Michael Lane?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1900/05741/4621054.pdf
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Did you see this Keating family in 1901 in Knocknagranshy? Perhaps they are related.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Limerick/Garrane/Knocknagranshy/1489186/
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https://pure.qub.ac.uk/portal/files/13821188/queenswp.pdf
See page 10 on this link about religion of children of mixed marriages.
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Wow! Thanks so much everyone for the feedback. Great info, so much to follow up.
I have the civil registration for Margaret Lane but will check for her baptism, also Katie/Catherine's.
I think Richard Lane was the eldest child, born 25 April 1867, registered Adare. It was great to have his baptism, proving his father was Protestant. I still can't find the marriage of James Lane and Anne Keating.
Great to have James Lane's death date from his will. I do think that the death for Michael Lane in Limerick Infirmary is him - the dates are only 1 day apart but I guess it's not 100% conclusive.
I'm not sure but I think Eliza Lane was the sister of the babies. She later married James Joseph Keating in 1893. He was her mother(Anne Keating)'s cousin.
The Keating family at Knocknagranshy in 1901 (and 1911) are definitely related - they are the children of Anne (Keating) Lane's brother, James Keating, so she was their aunt.
Talk about tangled webs!
Thanks so much for all your help - much appreciated :-)
Jan
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https://pure.qub.ac.uk/portal/files/13821188/queenswp.pdf
See page 10 on this link about religion of children of mixed marriages.
Thanks. That was one I've read previously but couldn't remember what it was.
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After checking Elizabeth and feel this is the family as far as I can see with Civil Records in links
1867 Richard LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1867/03479/2278527.pdf)
m Agnes SPARLING Feb 11 1896 LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1896/10485/5818632.pdf)
1869 Eliza LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1869/03366/2234251.pdf)
m James KEATING Nov 15 1893 LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1893/10619/5869024.pdf)
1872 William LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1872/03241/2187658.pdf)
c1875 James
m. Aug 25 1896 Rebecca LLOYD LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1896/10503/5825320.pdf)
noting witnesses were Edmond and Richard
1877 Margaret LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1877/03016/2105282.pdf)
possibly died in 1898 LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1898/05825/4649440.pdf) further proof required
c1882 Katie as on 1901 census but no record
1879 Edmond LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1879/02924/2071523.pdf)
m Margaret MOLONEY may 01 1924 LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1924/09163/5314125.pdf)
noting one witness was Maggie Lane implying suggested death may not be correct,
however this may be another relative
1884 Jeoffrey LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1884/02696/1992965.pdf)
note sister Eliza was the informant and registration district is mistranscribed as Cork
m Mary Anne CHAMBERLAINE Apr 27 1920 LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1920/09264/5353883.pdf)
1886 Anne LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02586/1955788.pdf)
note sister Lizzie was the informant
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There was a 14 year-old Keating niece in the Lane household on 1911 census.
Have you looked for a marriage of James (or Michael) and Anne in Britain?
Anne might have been a form of another name.
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It always amazes me that people, if they are religious just carry on with the religion that they were taught about in their childhood.
That's because the children are often basically brainwashed....and not allowed to consider any alternative.
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There was a 14 year-old Keating niece in the Lane household on 1911 census.
Have you looked for a marriage of James (or Michael) and Anne in Britain?
Anne might have been a form of another name.
If I recall, she was the daughter of a Lane/Keating marriage -the cousins referred to previously.
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It always amazes me that people, if they are religious just carry on with the religion that they were taught about in their childhood.
That's because the children are often basically brainwashed....and not allowed to consider any alternative.
More complex than that.
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Of course it is, I was being a bit flippant, sorry.
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A couple of thing I noticed re Richard and Elizabeth.
Richard was born April 1867 according to birth registration. I can't read exact date. He was baptised in June. Catholic babies were usually baptised soon after birth. I assumed eldest son would have been baptised into father's denomination.
Elizabeth was baptised 14th Nov. 1868. The Elizabeth of the birth registration posted by myluck reply #21 was allegedly born in December 1869. ??? One Elizabeth or 2? :-\
Informant of Margaret's birth 1877 was Elizabeth Lane. A responsible child if it was young Elizabeth, aged 8 or 7. :)
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myluck! thanks so much for putting this family together, especially the links to the civil records and the marriages. Fantastic!
It's interesting about Margaret Lane's possible death in 1898. The age and place fit, but I need to see if there's another Maggie Lane connected to the family.
Maiden Stone, Richard gives his religion as Church of Ireland on the 1901/1991 census so perhaps his baptism was delayed as his parents "discussed" his religion?
You're right about the gap between Eliza's baptism and birth registration. She died on 15 Oct 1941 age 71 which suggests the December 1869 birth is correct.
I think Eliza was about 15 at the time of her brother Geoffrey's birth and 17 when her sister Annie was born so that's feasible but to be the informant on Margaret's birth aged 7ish is a bit of a stretch. I'd love to see her signature on the original document! I'm guessing that this Lizzie Lane is an aunt. On the later births, it does say "sister" but not on this one.
Jan
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I'd love to see her signature on the original document! I'm guessing that this Lizzie Lane is an aunt.
No certificates I have seen of this time have a signature for informant, just the name & address written by registrar or clerk. I have an informant aged 13 on her mother's death certificate in 1855 London [father had died a week previously].
I suspect your guess of an aunt is likely to be correct.
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The informant for Richard, 1867 was Lucy Lane.
Here is a marriage in 1883, Lucy Lane, full age with father Richard Lane and Thomas Smith. A witness is James Lane.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1883/10930/5993461.pdf
1901 census here is likely for Thomas and Lucy Smith - 48yrs born abt 1853.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Limerick/Roxborough/Lemonfield/1495957/
This death supports the year of birth
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1907/05535/4551685.pdf
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There is a death here for Richard Lane 70yrs in 1885 - residence Ballycahane. The informant is Lizzie Lane, granddaughter.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1885/06274/4797340.pdf
And his widow Eliza with informant Eliza Lane, granddaughter.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1886/06245/4787970.pdf
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Maiden Stone, Richard gives his religion as Church of Ireland on the 1901/1991 census so perhaps his baptism was delayed as his parents "discussed" his religion?
You're right about the gap between Eliza's baptism and birth registration. She died on 15 Oct 1941 age 71 which suggests the December 1869 birth is correct.
I think Eliza was about 15 at the time of her brother Geoffrey's birth and 17 when her sister Annie was born so that's feasible but to be the informant on Margaret's birth aged 7ish is a bit of a stretch. I'd love to see her signature on the original document! I'm guessing that this Lizzie Lane is an aunt. On the later births, it does say "sister" but not on this one.
I also imagined discussions about which church Richard should be baptised at. I also imagined his mother saying nothing about baptism until she was able to take him to church herself. She may have come under pressure from her relatives, friends or a priest. It may have depended on whether both parents were equally attached to their religion at the time. Influence of grandparents can also bear weight.
The Elizabeth Lane who registered Margaret's birth didn't sign, she made her mark.
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I shouldn't try to do this late at night - I can't believe I overlooked the X on Margaret's birth cert.
This morning I'm wide awake :-) And thanks to your suggestion, Maiden Stone, I think I've found the marriage of James Lane and Anne Keating - in Westminster London!
James Lane Sept Qtr 1866 Westminster 1A 769 Anne Keating
It's not conclusive as there's another possible bride mentioned (Ann McCoy) but the year fits. I can just imagine them taking off to London to marry because of opposition from both sets of parents. What do you think?
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heywood, great finds for Richard and Lucy Lane - thanks so much - great to have James' parents. Lizzie Lane was certainly kept busy being informant on all those certificates!
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That marriage looks interesting.
The other couple are Andrew Kechie and Ann McCoy.
I can see a parish record - Catholic Westminster but have no access on that paid site and there is a corresponding entry for Ann McCoy.
There is a birth in 1872, for John Kechie, St George Hanover Square, London with a mother’s name McCoy :)
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I like the birth for a Kechie/McCoy child :-) - thanks for finding it. I think confirms the other couple as Lane/Keating.
I've just found a reference to an Edward Lane at Knocknagranshy in 1943 - about a well on his land. It refers to my 4g grandfather James Keating in 1791!
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That’s a good find :)
It’s good to have more information. Here is some:
https://treecouncil.ie/treeregisterofireland/502.htm
https://www.duchas.ie/en/cbes/4922032/4920246/4949254
https://www.duchas.ie/ is really interesting - schools collections from 1930s.
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This morning I'm wide awake :-) And thanks to your suggestion, Maiden Stone, I think I've found the marriage of James Lane and Anne Keating - in Westminster London!
James Lane Sept Qtr 1866 Westminster 1A 769 Anne Keating
It's not conclusive as there's another possible bride mentioned (Ann McCoy) but the year fits. I can just imagine them taking off to London to marry because of opposition from both sets of parents. What do you think?
They may have gone there for work which was normal for young, single Irish people. Unmarried Irish women were domestic servants in England. Irish men worked on farms or in construction. Ireland had few industries so many young people chose inward migration to Britain to seek paid employment. It had the added benefit of potentially widening the marriage pool - meeting members of the opposite sex who weren't from your parish and your 3rd cousin, and making a personal choice of spouse . Marriage prospects in Ireland were limited in post-Famine decades in rural areas compared to pre-Famine.
You might find them on 1861 English census.
Have you got birth registrations for all children of the marriage? If not, check GRO for missing ones, in case James & Anne went back to England for a while. You can add mother's maiden name on search form for birth index. Some babies were never registered. A child in one of my Irish families who was born late 1860s seems to be missing from birth registrations; I found her baptism easily.
A pair of my Irish ancestors allegedly eloped because one of them was destined for an arranged marriage. This was also in 1860s.
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That’s a good find :)
It’s good to have more information. Here is some:
https://treecouncil.ie/treeregisterofireland/502.htm
https://www.duchas.ie/en/cbes/4922032/4920246/4949254
https://www.duchas.ie/ is really interesting - schools collections from 1930s.
If I were Jang I would want to hug that ash tree. I hope it lives for hundreds more years.
I've bookmarked those sites to explore.
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heywood, what great sites, especially the schools one. It's not the easiest to use but there's some great info there. I'm constantly amazed what's available on the internet nowadays.
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Maiden Stone, thanks for the suggestion about checking the English BDMs and 1861 census - a nil result but definitely worth doing. Their first child, Richard, was born on 25 April 1867 back in Limerick, so they didn't stay in London long after their marriage.
PS I wish I could hug that Ash tree - I didn't know about it in 2004 when we visited Limerick :-(
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heywood, what great sites, especially the schools one. It's not the easiest to use but there's some great info there. I'm constantly amazed what's available on the internet nowadays.
I've been dipping into it. Some reminiscence topics are the kind of thing my dad and uncles talked about. I saw an invitation to volunteer subscribers so I might have a go. Handwriting in the school exercise books is much easier to read than church registers.
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They are lovely, aren’t they MS.
The handwriting is often very beautiful and I love the phraseology.
It is especially good to read about places and names which are part of our history.
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Maiden Stone, thanks for the suggestion about checking the English BDMs and 1861 census - a nil result but definitely worth doing. Their first child, Richard, was born on 25 April 1867 back in Limerick, so they didn't stay in London long after their marriage.
Some of my Irish families went back & forth across the sea, depending on work, family situation and other factors. As a consequence, children were born in Ireland and England, alternate births in one family. One couple even crossed the Atlantic twice, had 2 sons in U.S, then settled permanently in Lancashire in late 1860s. Some children missing from censuses were with grandparents in Ireland.
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Gosh, Maiden Stone, it must have been difficult sorting them out!
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A big thank you to everyone for helping me with this family. I certainly didn't expect to get such great feedback when I posted my original question.
To find out that the Lane family farmed the same land that was originally occupied by the Keatings has got me thinking about what happened to it after the last mention I have - the death of Geoffrey Lane there in 1956. I found a newspaper article about the purchase of land at Knocknagranshy by Qatar Racing in November 2018 - now to fill in the missing years! I'll post a query on the Limerick board - maybe another Rootschatter might live nearby :-)
Jan