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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: coombs on Thursday 04 April 19 13:53 BST (UK)
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In the 1600s, I have found a number of my Essex ancestors were vicars. Humphrey Cole of Tillingham, Essex (c1547-1624) and I think I may have found another ancestor who was a Reverend. Isaiah Sutcliffe who was a vicar in Essex in the 1620s and 1630s. Sutcliffe is a Yorkshire/Lancashire name and I wonder if Isaiah came from that way originally. A William Sutcliffe of Grimsby was posted as a vicar to Essex in about 1620. No known connection to Isaiah yet. Not sure if all vicars went to university in those days or did some other training.
Anyone else come across ancestors who were in the clergy? Some were even buried inside the church such as inside the chancel etc.
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I presume you have seen this:
http://theclergydatabase.org.uk/
You can search via names, and it provides further information.
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This site gives you an Outline History
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Clergy_of_Church_of_England_(in_England)
Use http://www.rootschat.com/links/01nm6/ instead
Stan
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"By the 1630s, however, it seems that most parishes, at least in the south of England, had a clergyman with a university education. Most stemmed from the middle ranks of society. In the north of England and the north Midlands, however, many clergy came from humbler social backgrounds, were educated locally,"
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Clergy_of_Church_of_England_(in_England)
Use http://www.rootschat.com/links/01nm6/ instead
Stan
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I presume you have seen this:
http://theclergydatabase.org.uk/
You can search via names, and it provides further information.
Many, many thanks for this Stan.
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Stan, I get the following message from clicking on your links:
Clergy of Church of England (in England
There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, or search the related logs, but you do not have permission to create this page.
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Stan, I get the following message from clicking on your links:
Clergy of Church of England (in England
There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, or search the related logs, but you do not have permission to create this page.
I don't know why that link does not work but if you click on http://www.rootschat.com/links/01nm6/
it should take you to the page.
Stan
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The Clergy Database normally indicates when someone went to university, but it's often a good idea to check lists of alumni anyway. For most pre-19th century English clergy this would be Oxford or Cambridge, but I recently came across one who went to Glasgow (late 17th century).
Many of the alumni lists are in printed volumes which can be found at the Internet Archive, but Cambridge can also be accessed at
http://venn.lib.cam.ac.uk/acad/2018/search-2018.html
(The direct link to the database looks as though it changes from time to time. If that one doesn't work, you should be able to get there from the introductory page at http://venn.lib.cam.ac.uk/)
This includes entries for Humphrey Cole and William Sutcliffe, with notes of other biographical sources which may be useful.
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I cannot seem to find Isaiah Sutcliffe. I did read that he was a Reverend. He died in 1655 in Rettendon, Essex and was said to be a clerk.
A google books lists Isaiah as a Rev isaiah Sutcliffe. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8JcbV309c5UC&pg=PA522&lpg=PA522&dq=%22rev.+isaiah+sutcliffe%22&source=bl&ots=kwmGJ_GS9b&sig=ACfU3U28Nlt84smiqCm-qb4KqLk0PEvP-Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiCt-mI3LbhAhXXQxUIHTlID8QQ6AEwAnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22rev.%20isaiah%20sutcliffe%22&f=false
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One thing to watch out for with the Clergy Database is that they can mix up the details of two different men with the same name. I noticed this with a clerical father and son who had identical first and middle names as well as surname.
Carol
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I can't find anything at all about Isaiah Sutcliffe at the Clergy Database, though I think I read somewhere that it wasn't 100% complete. There are certainly some clergy who appear only as names from bishops' act books or registers, without links to further details, but a site search sometimes finds these. In this case it doesn't, but I'll keep trying.
Meanwhile, a bit more on Isaiah here:
https://archive.org/details/ancestryofwillia00erwi/page/260
ADDED:
I've checked the lists of entries from the act books etc of the Bishops of London from 1611 to 660, and there weren't any mentioning either Rettendon or Sutcliffe.
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I can't find anything at all about Isaiah Sutcliffe at the Clergy Database, though I think I read somewhere that it wasn't 100% complete. There are certainly some clergy who appear only as names from bishops' act books or registers, without links to further details, but a site search sometimes finds these. In this case it doesn't, but I'll keep trying.
Meanwhile, a bit more on Isaiah here:
https://archive.org/details/ancestryofwillia00erwi/page/260
ADDED:
I've checked the lists of entries from the act books etc of the Bishops of London from 1611 to 660, and there weren't any mentioning either Rettendon or Sutcliffe.
Thanks.
While not definite, I did find an Isack Sutcliffe baptised in 1594 in Rochdale, and he had a brother Nathan. Sons of Henry. Reverend Isaiah had a son called Nathaniel. I have a feeling that Isaiah Sutcliffe was not from Essex. Seems he was in Rayleigh in 1629.
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I have a feeling that Isaiah Sutcliffe was not from Essex. Seems he was in Rayleigh in 1629.
I wondered about that because he was said to have married there in 1629, but I can't see anything about him in Rayleigh either.
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I have a feeling that Isaiah Sutcliffe was not from Essex. Seems he was in Rayleigh in 1629.
I wondered about that because he was said to have married there in 1629, but I can't see anything about him in Rayleigh either.
Perhaps as you say, the Clergy list is not yet complete. He is said to be a Rev in several documents including that page of that book.
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"Anyone else come across ancestors who were in the clergy?"
My tree is simply heaving with clergymen; not CoE, however.
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"Anyone else come across ancestors who were in the clergy?"
One of my aunts married a missionary in Kenya (and became one herself); and another married into a line of hereditary protestant bishops in Ireland. Not first-division stuff, but different .....
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Anyone else come across ancestors who were in the clergy?
I have several Methodists including my grandfather but perhaps the most illustrious, although indirect, ancestor was Bernard Gilpin 'The Apostle of the North'. He was a Protestant based at Houghton-le-Spring (after several smaller places) and was arrested & sent to London for trial under Mary I. On the journey he broke his leg and while recovering Mary I died so he was reprieved. I am descended from his older brother William. Another brother, George, was ambassador to Elizabeth I
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PCC Will of Izaiah Sutcliffe, Clerk of Rettendon, Essex
19 June 1655
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D799701
Later, connected??
Lease for 9 years
George Carew of London, merchant, to Isaiah Sutcliffe of Reckendon, yeoman
20 Sep 1694
https://www.essexarchivesonline.co.uk/result_details.aspx?ThisRecordsOffSet=1&id=184207
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Thanks. I have a sub to Anc, and I think PCC wills are online there. I did not think to check Anc for any wills or anything. I shall take a look.
I wonder if Isaiah is related to Matthew Sutcliffe who wed Thamazin Warden in 1639 in Heybridge. A Mary Sutcliffe was baptised there in 1637, I think by his first wife Mary.
The William Sutcliffe who was from Grimsby who was posted as a vicar to North Fambridge may have been a cousin of his. His dad was John of Grimsby and Melroyd which was a small part of Halifax, down the road from Rochdale.
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Stan, I get the following message from clicking on your links:
Clergy of Church of England (in England
There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, or search the related logs, but you do not have permission to create this page.
I don't know why that link does not work but if you click on http://www.rootschat.com/links/01nm6/
it should take you to the page.
Stan
Thanks Stan. I thought it must be something I was doing wrong. I’ll try again. :)
Added: Yes, that link worked (some useful info there too)
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Coombs, the Clergy Database is indeed far from complete, and as mentioned above riddled with errors.
If you know where your Isaiah was the clerk, you can do a place search. When you get to the parish, it will give you a list of vicars, and in a lot of instances you will find gaps.
Some of my newly found clergy ancestors are not on there either.
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Clergy, especially those who died in post, seem quite often to have been interred in the chancel, or at least to have had something like a memorial plaque put there. seems quite logical, to me, actually.
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Clergy, especially those who died in post, seem quite often to have been interred in the chancel, or at least to have had something like a memorial plaque put there. seems quite logical, to me, actually.
... and with their heads to the east end, of course.
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Coombs, the Clergy Database is indeed far from complete, and as mentioned above riddled with errors.
If you know where your Isaiah was the clerk, you can do a place search. When you get to the parish, it will give you a list of vicars, and in a lot of instances you will find gaps.
Some of my newly found clergy ancestors are not on there either.
Thanks. Seems it is work in progress. One day I may get a lead on Isaiah's origins.
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Another ancestor of mine Samuel Bush was the vicar of Ringland, Norfolk. I found his Cambridge Uni entry.
BUSH, SAMUEL. Matric. sizar from Trinity, c. 1596; B.A. (? 1602-3). Ord. deacon (Norwich) Mar. 25, 1602, age 25; 'B.A.', C. of Banningham, Norfolk; priest, Dec. 21, 1603. V. of Ringland, 1605.
Looks like her was a clerk of Banningham in 1603. He was posted to Ringland in 1605.
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Will of Samuel Bush of Ringland, Clerk
Norwich Consistory Court, 1626
Copy will here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSGN-M9ZJ-W?i=155&cat=278818
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Will of Samuel Bush of Ringland, Clerk
Norwich Consistory Court, 1626
Copy will here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSGN-M9ZJ-W?i=155&cat=278818
Jon, I did not know the wills for Norfolk (and presumably the parts of Suffolk covered by the court) were online, quite bizarre that the Norfolk Archives wills page makes no mention of it
https://www.archives.norfolk.gov.uk/Help-with-your-research/Family-history/Wills-and-probate (https://www.archives.norfolk.gov.uk/Help-with-your-research/Family-history/Wills-and-probate)
I've posted a query in the Norfolk forum, perhaps you'd be kind enough to post an answer there
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=811168.new#new (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=811168.new#new)
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Will of Samuel Bush of Ringland, Clerk
Norwich Consistory Court, 1626
Copy will here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSGN-M9ZJ-W?i=155&cat=278818
Thanks. Had a read and it mentions his brother in law John Brooke, so maybe his wife's brother, or his sister's husband. Mentions his children. I descend from Cuthbert.
I did think originally the Samuel Bush born in Hardingham in 1571 may be mine. But the Hardingham one married in 1600 in nearby Deopham to Rose Reynolds. I think my Samuel was still at university at Cambridge at the time. Also my Samuel was said to be 25 in 1602 when he was ordained so he was born c1577. The Hardingham Samuel had a daughter Lidia Bush in 1602 in Hardingham.
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Coombs, not sure how much you know about your Isaiah Sutcliffe, but I did a Google search and came up with several interesting hits. Just the name, no title or place.
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Coombs, not sure how much you know about your Isaiah Sutcliffe, but I did a Google search and came up with several interesting hits. Just the name, no title or place.
Certainly an interesting man. Also as his surname is a Lancashire/Yorks name I am sure he or his family came from there. Vicars were often posted far away from their birthplace, dispelling the myth that 99% of our ancestors never moved more than 10 miles of their birthplace.
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Coombs, not sure how much you know about your Isaiah Sutcliffe, but I did a Google search and came up with several interesting hits. Just the name, no title or place.
Certainly an interesting man. Also as his surname is a Lancashire/Yorks name I am sure he or his family came from there. Vicars were often posted far away from their birthplace, dispelling the myth that 99% of our ancestors never moved more than 10 miles of their birthplace.
That's very true. And that's one of the reasons why we get the spelling variants for our ancestors' surnames: vicars unfamiliar with local names and accents.
I have a similar situation in my wife's tree. She is descended from Thomas Bentham Bishop of Lichfield and Coventry. As far as I can discover he was from Yorkshire.
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http://theclergydatabase.org.uk/
My ancestor Rev Ralph Loughborough was Vicar of a church in Pirton in Hertfordshire for most of Queen Victoria's reign, yet I couldn't find him on that church database. Can anyone suggest why this is?
Martin
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See Why can’t I find my clergyman ancestor on your website? http://theclergydatabase.org.uk/how-to-use-the-database/faq/
Stan
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Stan, thank you, I don't use icons but if I did I would have one that shows my tail between my legs.
Thanks for your help.
Edit. Two minutes later, I also realise that it only goes up to 1835 anyway. I shall try Crockfords.
Martin
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Martin, there are many gaps in some parishes. Two of my ancestors, father and son, were vicars of Combe Raleigh in Devon, one after the other. Unfortunately there is nearly a 100 year gap in the records on the Clergy Database.
Speaking of clergy, the cleric at Colyton in Devon in the late 1700's must have been an amateur genealogist. He gives two or three generations of detail in each entry in the burial register.
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Somehow the further back I am able to go, the more diverse my ancestry gets, and the more I find vicars, landowners and a knight, plus a physician. Although their early origins (ie parents, birthplaces) can be as hard to trace as people who had very humble lives and occupations.
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Very true, Coombs. Although I still have some family lines that are ag labs all the way I've found so far. Ag labs, or miners as is the case with my Cornish ancestors.
An eclectic mix of ag labs, miners, yeoman farmers, tradespeople (one female ancestor is recorded as having 400 laceworkers working for her), clergy and landed gentry. That's my lot, and I'm sure it is the same for others as well.
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As more comes online, the easier it gets to use our laptops or PC's or mobiles as a "record office".
Seems Isaiah Sutcliffe did not go to Oxford or Cambridge but was later qualified as a vicar.
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An eclectic mix of ag labs, miners, yeoman farmers, tradespeople (one female ancestor is recorded as having 400 laceworkers working for her), clergy and landed gentry. That's my lot, and I'm sure it is the same for others as well.
I think you have covered most of the categories of occupation for people outside industrial towns in the 19th century. Many rural people (ag.labs.) would have lived in tied cottages and presumably existed self-sufficiently to a large extent. A Northumberland family on my wife's tree moved year to year between farms, which we can follow with a large-scale map and a succession of baptisms giving their abode.
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Another vicar ancestor. Thomas Jolye c1540-1599. Was appointed vicar of Thundersley in Essex in 1569. According to Newcourt, he was appointed 15 Nov 1569, and the patron was a Thos. Wright.
I have a feeling Thomas Jolye was from Yorkshire originally. In 1599 he left a will mentioning kinswoman Ann Hage, and cousin Henry Wright of Bury. Henry Wright also mentions his cousins Jollye from Thundersley in Essex when he died in 1609, probably Thomas Jnr (c1565-1619, son of Thomas who died in 1569). I think cousin was often a term for a kinsman, such as nephew or niece, or others relative. Henry Wright in his will mentions a Henry Simpson of Skipton.
Henry Wright was originally of Skipton in Craven according to a visitation where his daughter Alice married Robert Sandwith. Henry mentions another cousin Thomas Smith, and Thomas Jolye died 1599 mentions cousin Thomas Smith, a skinner.
It does seem Thomas Jolye was a relative of Henry Wright from Skipton. A Thomas Jolye was vicar of Skipton in 1549, whether he is a relative of my Thomas Jolye is uncertain as of yet.
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In my Trant line, my earliest ancestor was Gabriel Trant who seems to have come from from nowhere in 1695 to be appointed Vicar of Lowther in Westmorland (although some contemporary reports indicate he may have been French). At least 3 of his 5 sons trained as Priests at Oxbridge.
In another line, I have William Marsh who was Vicar of Bolsterstone, Yorkshire from 1674 - 1685 and again from 1696 to 1704. During the gap in his ministry he was in York Jail for conducting illegal marriages.
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When my ancestor was made vicar of Thundersley in 1569, the patron was Thomas Wright and it said P.H.V afterwards which means "pro hac vice" which means for or on this occasion only.
Still trying to establish Thomas Jolye's exact link to Henry Wright of Skipton Yorks died 1610 in Suffolk, but when you get back that far, in the 1500s, it is not easy, as many vicars still came from humble origins.
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UPDATE:
Thomas Jolye, vicar of Thundersley, had a son Ingram Jolye who died in 1572 in Thundersley. In 1563 a Thomas Jolye was sued as an administrator of the account of Ingram Jolye, gent of Skipton. Also, Ingram Jolye and his wife Elizabeth were subject to a land debt in Skipton in Craven.
I am now sure Thomas Jolye c1540-1600 was from Skipton originally, and his "cosen" Henry Wright was of Skipton.
I have a feeling the Thomas Jolye, vicar of Skipton, was his father. He wrote to Lord Clifford in 1537 and was vicar.
There was an Ingram Clifford born c1516 and Ingram Percy born c1510 who were children of barons of Skipton, but I do not think Ingram Jolye who died c1560, born c1520 was a relative, even if the Jolye and Clifford family knew one another. No mention of the Percy's of Clifford's (or their mothers siblings) marrying a Jolye.
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Not vicars but one ancestor did pay for two churches to be built in memory of their daughter who had died aged 11.
Cheers
Guy