RootsChat.Com

Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: goldie61 on Sunday 07 April 19 06:25 BST (UK)

Title: Latin probate 1640
Post by: goldie61 on Sunday 07 April 19 06:25 BST (UK)
I'd appreciate it if anybody can see any other names in here apart from 'Vrian Orton'. The name carries on through several generations, and I've seen it sometimes transcribed as 'Vrian', and sometime 'Urian', so I really don't know what the name would have been. Neither of them sound terribly easy.
Difficult when 'U' and 'V' were the same letter in those days!

Thanks very much
Title: Re: Latin probate 1640
Post by: Bookbox on Sunday 07 April 19 10:14 BST (UK)
No-one else is named in this extract. Administration was granted to the executor named in the will, who was sworn in person.

The image on FindMyPast is much clearer. The testator's first name is transcribed there as Brian, but that's not what's written. It looks like U/Vriani, which in English would give U/Vrian, as you've said. I wonder if that translates into Brian? I haven't come across it before, and it's not listed in Trice Martin.

ADDED - Vrianus seems to be a name from Arthurian legend ...
https://www.electricscotland.com/history/sacred.htm
Title: Re: Latin probate 1640
Post by: goldie61 on Sunday 07 April 19 11:16 BST (UK)
Many thanks Bookbox, and the link to Arthurian legend.

I forgot to ask - does it give a place of residence for Vrian?

There is a nuncupative 'will' for a Vrian Orton of Broxton (near Tattenhall in Cheshire), in 1633 with no executor specifically mentioned. Also an inventory for it taken April 1633.
I'm unsure if this is going to be the same person. It is a very unusual name.
Perhaps the probate was not decided until 1640 for some reason.

Title: Re: Latin probate 1640
Post by: Bookbox on Sunday 07 April 19 11:23 BST (UK)
Looks to me like he was of Edge de flint (start of line 2), but I haven't checked to see if such a place existed in Flint.
Title: Re: Latin probate 1640
Post by: Bookbox on Sunday 07 April 19 11:36 BST (UK)
Sorry, just realised it's ... de Edge defunct(i) = of Edge, deceased. So not Flint at all. Duh :-[
Title: Re: Latin probate 1640
Post by: arthurk on Sunday 07 April 19 14:06 BST (UK)
There is a nuncupative 'will' for a Vrian Orton of Broxton (near Tattenhall in Cheshire), in 1633 with no executor specifically mentioned. Also an inventory for it taken April 1633.

Edge and Broxton are townships in the parish of Malpas - both some distance from Malpas itself and in the same direction, possibly adjacent.

There's a burial in Malpas on 5 April 1633 which seems to match the above will - Vrian(?) Orton of Broxton. The PR is faint but possibly improvable, but the BT is much clearer.

The fact that there's some record of the 1633 nuncupative will and inventory suggests that it went to probate. If further assets came to light there could have been a further probate in 1640, though if that were so, would there be some reference to this in the document we're working on?

On the other hand, FamilySearch offers two children of Urian Orton baptised in Malpas in 1662 and 1669/70, which suggests the name was being passed down the family and another one might have died in 1640. I haven't checked the originals for these two baptisms, though it might not be possible to tell if they have Urian or Vrian. (FS also have a few 17th century baptisms in other parts of Cheshire where the child is Urian/Vrian, and they too seem a bit uncertain which it is.)
Title: Re: Latin probate 1640
Post by: Bookbox on Sunday 07 April 19 14:34 BST (UK)
The fact that there's some record of the 1633 nuncupative will and inventory suggests that it went to probate. If further assets came to light there could have been a further probate in 1640, though if that were so, would there be some reference to this in the document we're working on?

I was wondering that too. The puzzle is that the 1640 probate refers to a named executor, but there isnít one in the 1633 nuncupative will (as shown online). If the 1640 probate is not for the 1633 will, where is the other will, with named executor, that went to probate in that year?

For what it's worth, I've transcribed the 1640 probate below. Iím not certain if itís a male or female executor/executrix, because the endings for the key Latin words (exec... and iurat...) are abbreviated too heavily to tell.

xxvjto No(vem)bris 1640
Testam(en)tu(m) cum Inven(tario) bonoru(m) Vriani Orton nup(er) dum vixit
de Edge defunct(i) p(ro)bat(um) &c Comissaq(ue) fuit adm(inist)racio bonor(um)
prefat(i)[?] defunct(i) Exec(utori[?]) in eod(em) no(m)i(n)at(o[?]) primitus de bene &c
p(er)sonaliter iurat(o[?]) Salvo &c

26 November 1640
The will with inventory of the goods of Vrian Orton, lately whilst living of Edge, deceased, was proved etc.; and administration of the goods of the aforesaid[?] deceased was granted to the executor named in the same, who was first sworn in person to well [and faithfully] etc.; saving [the rights of whomsoever] etc.
Title: Re: Latin probate 1640
Post by: arthurk on Sunday 07 April 19 17:21 BST (UK)
Burial in Malpas 20 July 1640: Urian Overton of Malpas

Surely the same person? Bear in mind dialect forms of over including ower, and the poetic o'er, and it's easy to see how Overton and Orton could be variants of the same surname.
Title: Re: Latin probate 1640
Post by: Bookbox on Sunday 07 April 19 17:50 BST (UK)
Burial in Malpas 20 July 1640: Urian Overton of Malpas

Surely the same person? Bear in mind dialect forms of over including ower, and the poetic o'er, and it's easy to see how Overton and Orton could be variants of the same surname.

Good thinking. In support of your theory, there is a Cheshire probate document of 1635 for a Henry Overton alias Orton, of Bunbury.

It would be good to find a will and inventory (as referenced in the probate) for this Urian Overton buried in Malpas in 1640.
Title: Re: Latin probate 1640
Post by: arthurk on Sunday 07 April 19 19:34 BST (UK)
It's at FamilySearch (will on this page, inventory the next):

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-67W7-MN5?i=530

Lots of relations named, which might help to confirm his identity and what was going on with the surname variants. Note that the will has it as Overton, so maybe it was the executor(s) who preferred Orton.

The document we've been deciphering looks like an entry in the calendar, and possibly the only record of the probate.
Title: Re: Latin probate 1640
Post by: Bookbox on Sunday 07 April 19 20:44 BST (UK)
Excellent find, arthurk, well done! This will surely help goldie61 sort out the various Orton family members.
Title: Re: Latin probate 1640
Post by: goldie61 on Sunday 07 April 19 21:19 BST (UK)
Bookbox and arthurk.
Thank you for all your beavering on my behalf whilst I've been asleep at this end of the world!  :)

I had not considered 'Overton' as an alternative to Orton, but a great idea.

I shall go and look at the 1640 will and see if it all becomes clear!



Title: Re: Latin probate 1640
Post by: goldie61 on Tuesday 09 April 19 06:06 BST (UK)
Well that didn't make things any clearer at all!
Although Edge and Broxton are only a few miles apart, there doesn't seem to be any cross-over of names in these two wills.
One would have thought there would be some relationship somewhere down (or up) the line.
More delving to do.

Although not making any difference to the people in the wills, do you know what this phrase might be in the preamble?
through the mirrites of Jesus Christ my saviour it shalbe Received into the Joyes
of heaven, when he shall caule for it out of his tabernacle of ?


Not a phrase I've come across before. Perhaps 'Glory?'
Many thanks
Title: Re: Latin probate 1640
Post by: goldie61 on Tuesday 09 April 19 06:19 BST (UK)
The National Archives seem to transcribe the name as 'Urian".
I wonder if they now something we don't?  :)

No less than 3 men named 'Urian' in this document form 1471.
So quite a popular name at that time.

Reference:    DCH/C/341

Description:   
MORTGAGE to secure 33/4 by Urian de Cawreden to William Kereson, of a messuage in which William Overton now dwells with lands which the said William holds of the said Urian in the township of MALPASSE.
 
Witnesses: Urian Davinport, rector of a moiety of the church of Malpas, Randle son of Urian Brereton and Humphrey Brereton.
 
Given at Malpas, 18. Apr. 147
1.

I know the Brereton family were knights, and served as grooms of the kings chamber later on.
Title: Re: Latin probate 1640
Post by: horselydown86 on Tuesday 09 April 19 06:23 BST (UK)
Can we see the next line, please.

I think it begins with:  C-l-e

See Christ & Church.

Also:  ..this tabarnacle...
Title: Re: Latin probate 1640
Post by: horselydown86 on Tuesday 09 April 19 06:28 BST (UK)
A phrase used in Christianity:  Tabernacle of Clay

ADDED:

All the references from an internet search point to the LDS Church.
Title: Re: Latin probate 1640
Post by: goldie61 on Tuesday 09 April 19 07:43 BST (UK)
Hi HD
Here is the next line - it starts a new bequest -
Itm I bequeth my bodye to be buried........

I thought it was a 'Cl' at the beginning - but can't see what the rest might be. I can't really see 'Clay' - can you?
The 's' at the end of 'Malpas' confuses it further.

This will is from 1640.

Title: Re: Latin probate 1640
Post by: arthurk on Tuesday 09 April 19 17:13 BST (UK)
I think it could be this tabarnacle of clea.

It's a fairly standard biblical analogy to refer to the human body as made of clay, and this could be a non-standard spelling, of which there seem to be a few. Note that it's this rather than his, meaning it refers to something earthly rather than heavenly.

(According to Joseph Wright's Dialect Dictionary, 'clea' is also found in Cheshire as a variant of 'clee', which is itself a variant of 'claw'. Claw wouldn't make sense here, but the similarity might have given rise to some confusion over spelling.)

Then I think the next line is:
Ite: I bequeath my Bodye to be Buried in the Churchyard of Malpas in
in some Convenient place ther:

(repeated 'in' as per the original)
Title: Re: Latin probate 1640
Post by: horselydown86 on Tuesday 09 April 19 17:48 BST (UK)
Agree with Arthur that it is probably spelt:  Clea

If you compare the s in malpas to those in Jesus and Joyes, it is apparent that our problem word doesn't have any component below the line.

What remains of the word after the e is an a with the straight part slightly separate from the curved part, and an uptick at the end of the straight part.
Title: Re: Latin probate 1640
Post by: goldie61 on Tuesday 09 April 19 23:48 BST (UK)
Thanks HD and Arthur.
'Tabarnacle of Clea' it is then, aka Tabernacle of Clay.