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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: gemmanoon on Monday 08 April 19 04:31 BST (UK)
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Help!
My ancestor, Mary Ellis, was born in Liverpool about 1860, according to the census records I have for her post-marriage. I have her marriage certificate to John Emmett in 1789, which includes the name of her father, and his occupation as a labourer. There is some disagreement among the family researchers as to whether it says Robert or Herbert for his name (or, if you listen to my husband, Bobest :-\)
(aside, I'm fairly certain this is the correct marriage certificate as John's address matches his family's home, but both he and his father are listed as carpenters when they were both shipwrights, and I'm not sure why).
I originally thought it said Herbert (based on them choosing the name for her son, and because there was a Herbert Ellis living nearby), and my cousin thinks it is Robert - which is definitely more common in the time period. SO there are several family trees out there which show completely different ancestors for the Mary Ellis that married John Emmett. All I know for cerftain is that they were both literate, and John came from a fairly well off family.
Thing is, I can't find Mary prior to her marriage - with either Herbert OR Robert as a dad. She does not list an occupation on her marriage certificate, although she is living in Goring Street in 1879. According to her marriage certificate, she was born in 1860, but her death certificate (she died after John) has her as born in 1856. On every census after her marriage she is listed as born in Liverpool, but I cannot find her birth certificate conclusively. I have one possibility, but it has her born in 1855. If her spouse really did think she was 19 at their marriage she must have had really good skin, is all I'm saying.
Oh and John lied about his age, too. HE was 19, not 21, so maybe their ages got mixed up? ARGH
Anyway, please help. I'm going around in circles with this lady, and I think I'm at that stage where I talk myself out of any of the records until I'm not convinced she ever existed :o
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I think the name looks like Robert but I can see why you think it might be Herbert, though the r is missing. Are there any other capital Rs or Hs on the certificate for comparison?
Do you know the name of Mary's mother?
There is a family in Liverpool in the 1861 census with father Robert, mother Sarah, daur Mary aged 5 and a step son aged 10. Robert is 30 and a Labourer, born in Wales. Sarah is 40. Step son is Thomas F aged 10. Not quite the age you expected Mary to be .... :-\
Have you already seen and dismissed this family?
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There are no Rs or Hs on the rest of the certificate, although it also looks remarkably like the B in Banns, hence my husband's helpful suggestion of bobest.
I've not dismissed that Mary, but I'm not sure how to tie her into the tree to be sure, as there is a second Mary Ellis living in Toxteth, about the same age, who doesn't marry until later on - and has a father called Robert.
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I just double-checked all the census records, including the 1891 when her husband is a stray. She consistently has her ago supporting a 1860/61 birthday.
However, when she died in 1938 , her daughter (my great nan) reported the death and listed her age as 82 years. John had been dead for 16 years at this point. From family mythology, my great-nan didn't get on with her mum in the least, but all I've got is the recollections of my then-90-year-old great-great-aunts to base that on. I just have no idea if my great-nan just got her mother's age wrong, or if Mary might have admitted to being older than she'd claimed at some point after 1911.
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A couple of thoughts ...
Shipwright and carpenter are parallel occupations.
Mary might have fibbed about her age when she married - if she was 21 she did not need parent's permission.
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she has her age as 19 on the marriage certificate - it's John who fibs and pretends to be 20 when he was only 19. If her daughter is correct and Mary lied about her age, then wouldn't her parents have potentially been in on it? Her dad isn't listed as deceased - but the witnesses are both names that are not in our tree, so possibly friends?
You know, maybe tracking down Goring St might help. I'm certain this is the right couple becaue of John's address. He lived on Wellington Street rather than Wellington Road, but it's close enough in the name for me to be confident it's him.
Edit! Yay - managed to include the marriage certificate info! Then re-edited to not break crown copyright!
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There is a Wellington Road in Wavertree.
John saying he is 20 when he was 19 is not significant so does not seem like a lie - at least there would be no reason to lie. It would have been different if he had claimed to be 21. Are you sure he had not had his birthday?
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yup he was born June 18th so was three months shy of 20, but I suppose it's not significant.
His family lived in Wellington Street, Toxteth, for 30+ years. I'm assuming that "St Michael's, Toxteth," is St Michael in the Hamlet, which is close enough to the Dingle to make sense if I assume that the Goring St Mary Ellis lists in her address is the one that used to be in that area back before the war.
She's frustrating, I'll say that for her :-/
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interesting thread for me personally - my granny was Martha Ellis - Garston family - and there is also an Emmet Garston family - would you like me to post any Ellis family in my tree - Marys dad may well have been a Garston man ?
my earliest was Edward Ellis b 1799 who had 9 children
ADDED
have a look through this and see if anything looks likely for A CONNECTION
https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&localeSubcountryName=Lancashire&query=%2Bsurname%3Aellis~%20%2Bany_place%3Agarston~%20%2Brecord_country%3AEngland%20%2Brecord_subcountry%3A%22England%2CLancashire%22
The Ellis family came to Garston to work in the Copper Works - English didn't know enough about Copper - so they brought Welshmen in who did ..
:)
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There are no Rs or Hs on the rest of the certificate, although it also looks remarkably like the B in Banns, hence my husband's helpful suggestion of bobest.
There is an R in Road. It is very similar to the probably written more quickly first letter in Robert
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Census 1881 at 11 Barclay Street Toxteth Park Lancashire
EMMETT John 27yrs ship wright
EMMETT Mary 20yrs wife
EMMETT Florence 1yr dau all born Liverpool
Census 1891 at 14 Haylock Street Toxteth Park Lancashire
EMMETT Mary 30yrs
EMMETT Florence 11yrs scholar
EMMETT John 9yrs
EMMETT William 7yrs
EMMET Herbert 5yrs
EMMETT Walter 3yrs
EMMETT Isabelle 2yrs all born Liverpool Lancashire
Census 1901 at 26 Hodges Mount Toxteth Park Lancashire
EMMETT John 42yr
EMMETT Mary 40yr
EMMETT Florence 21yr
EMMETT John 19yr apprentice shipwright
EMMETT William A 17yr ships steward
EMMETT Herbert 15yr ships steward
EMMETT Walter 14yr grocers errand boy
EMMETT Bella 12yr
EMMETT Lillie 4yr all born Liverpool Lancashire
In 1911 John, wife Mary and daughters Isabella and Lillie are at 8 Barclay Street.
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A couple of Roberts from elsewhere in the same marriage register
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Hi,
In looking for Goring Street, in the 1881 census if you look for a William Peet born 1854 Toxteth - there is a Rootschat posting for this family - you will see that family in Goring Street. - Toxteth Park District 38.
In 1871 the Robert and Sarah Ellis (and Mary) mentioned earlier were in the same district number - it is extremely difficult to read but looks like a part of Upper Mann Street. Interestingly Robert's occupation is shown as Labourer - the same as on Mary's wedding certificate.
Alan
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Hi,
In looking for Goring Street, in the 1881 census if you look for a William Peet born 1854 Toxteth - there is a Rootschat posting for this family - you will see that family in Goring Street. - Toxteth Park District 38.
In 1871 the Robert and Sarah Ellis (and Mary) mentioned earlier were in the same district number - it is extremely difficult to read but looks like a part of Upper Mann Street. Interestingly Robert's occupation is shown as Labourer - the same as on Mary's wedding certificate.
Alan
It is odd that the places of birth for the family on the 1871 census are different from the 1861. Robert born in Ireland rather than Wales, and Sarah born in Shropshire rather than Liverpool. "Wife's son" is Thomas Francis and Mary is aged 13. Ages are a bit out for all of them. :-\ At first glance it seems like the same family ..... :-\
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Hi,
Unsure of the country as you point out - 1861 it says Robert from Gurley, Wales; 1871 says from Cargurly, Ireland! Can't see any such places but for me the fact that his wife is shown in 1861 as being from Ellesmere, Shropshire and 1871 Shropshire is relevant.
The other thing that suggests it is the same family is the presence of Thomas Francis who appears to be Sarah's child from a previous relationship.
Alan
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Hi,
Unsure of the country as you point out - 1861 it says Robert from Gurley, Wales; 1871 says from Cargurly, Ireland! Can't see any such places but for me the fact that his wife is shown in 1861 as being from Ellesmere, Shropshire and 1871 Shropshire is relevant.
The other thing that suggests it is the same family is the presence of Thomas Francis who appears to be Sarah's child from a previous relationship.
Alan
Although it does not specify "Ellesmere Shropshire" on the 1861 census, it fits with the 1871 giving her pob as Shropshire. I was thinking she was born in Ellesmere Port which is closer to Liverpool but I think you are right.
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Wow this was all amazing to wake up to! Thank you, and it just shows that fresh eyes make a whole world of difference.
I am going to sheet out my kids and get them to school, then come back to this on a few hours. Thank you all so much, hopefully I can make some progress with Robert and Sarah to see if I can confirm a relationship to my Mary Ellis.
I might have to wait until later census are released to see if Mary changes her age, but it's the best lead I have had in a a while. Thank you !
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There are a lot of Robert Ellis and Sarah marriages in a possible time frame. If this is the right family and Sarah came from Shropshire they may have married there, so the net would need to be widened further.
I was not going to bother mentioning the following as I had nothing to offer as proof, but if you look at that particular Robert and Sarah in the 1861 census there seem to be three families living at the same address which looks like 50 Skirving Street (?).
One of these is a John and Ellen Rowland. I don't know if it is relevant but I found a marriage in 1853 in Ruthin :-\ for a Robert Ellis and a Sarah Rowlands. I have no idea if this is the 1861 and 1871 Robert and Sarah nor do I know if they are your Ellis family, but I thought I would throw it in anyway. Likely to be a red herring .... :)
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1861 it says Robert from Gurley, Wales; 1871 says from Cargurly, Ireland!
Oddly similar.
(Someone may be able to suggest more likely place names).
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Edit! Yay - managed to include the entire marriage certificate!
[/quote]
You need to remove the Marriage Cert. as you may only include a portion of it on here and not the whole certificate due to copyright ;)
Carol
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Garstonite: I’ve no idea but I’ll start looking!
Rosie99: I don’t know how I missed the fact there is another R on that document for years. :-[
Wivenhoe: yup that’s the family. I’ve got photographs of Florence, Mary and Bella, which is pretty cool. ;D
ShaunJ: Thank you for that – It didn’t occur to me to look for other Roberts from the same register, so I think that proves I’ve had the wrong name all this time. :-\
Tall Al: Oh that’s fantastic! Thank you! I have some old photos of Upper Mann Street, I should go and look at the online archive again…
Ruskie: is it bad to hope for Wales? I’m so tired of losing ancestors once they are Ireland :'(
Tall Al/Ruskie: Um I also assumed it was Ellesmere Port at first!
Ruskie: everything is a red herring with this family at the moment, I don’t even have conclusive evidence that Sarah is the name of Mary’s mother at this stage, so your help is very much appreciated. I'm going to go back through her kids names as a couple have unusual middle names and see if that ties in anywhere.
Treetotal – THANK YOU! I’ll do that now!
All: Here is a snip from Mary Emmett's death certificate in 1938, which shows the age discrepancy. I know that John Emmett had a will where he left everything to Mary as it's no the index, but would it potentially be worth getting to see if there are any clues to her family, do you think?
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Did your John Emmett die in 1922 with a home address in Aigburth? If yes Mary Emmett was the executor of the will. To see who John left his estate to you need to get a copy of the will.
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Gibel, yes that's him. The index says "Probate Liverpool 20 March to mary Emmett Widow. Effects 723. 4s. 2d."
Does that mean she was the executor rather than the sole inheritor? I think I wrongly assumed it was the latter so hadn't prioritised getting a copy of the will.
Oooh I have to get it now - family legend says my g-grandmother (their eldest daughter, Florence) fell out with them because she married "beneath" her. I had great fun with some wills on another branch of the tree so here's hoping there is something in this one! Thank you, Gibel!
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Hi,
In looking for Goring Street, in the 1881 census if you look for a William Peet born 1854 Toxteth - there is a Rootschat posting for this family - you will see that family in Goring Street. - Toxteth Park District 38.
In 1871 the Robert and Sarah Ellis (and Mary) mentioned earlier were in the same district number - it is extremely difficult to read but looks like a part of Upper Mann Street. Interestingly Robert's occupation is shown as Labourer - the same as on Mary's wedding certificate.
Alan
Hi Alan, it looks like it says 61 Court 4 house Upper Mann Street, and the maps of the time suggest very dense housing.
Now just to add something into the mix - does the 1881 census return for Sarah and Robert Ellis look likely to anyone else? Sarah is once again born in Shropshire, but this time it looks like Robert is from Cheshire?
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Picking up on an earlier point, St Michael in the Hamlet is in Toxteth but the Lancs OPC site, for all its many merits, persists in listing it as in Aigburth. In the 19th century and later the northern boundary of Aigburth was at Jericho Lane/Aigburth Vale.
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The 1881 census you mention appears to be the same couple. Ages are out (again) though. and Robert is now born in Chester! ::)
Yes, Court housing was grim. It's all gone now.
A little youtube vid here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGp39YIYV0o
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In case the Robert Ellis found in the censuses is yours, I have found a burial which seems to fit fairly well age wise:
Robert Ellis
DEATH 3 Aug 1888
BURIAL Toxteth Park Cemetery
PLOT Sec: H, Grave: 49
Age: 57 years
The Toxteth Park Cemetery website is down at the moment but that may specify his address and occupation. This information may also be available elsewhere such as Ancestry.
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Ooh I will take a look later. Thanks!
It's an interesting sighed comparison to see the variations on conditions that my Liverpool ancestors lived in, and so frustrating how much working class social history is lost. I found some lovely maps and a few contemporary sources, but i wish more was available and there was more money/time/resources to help archive all this fabulous stuff. With 160 years of history in the city on both sides of my tree, it is sometimes surprising to see how little there is.
Anyway back to the Ellis family:
I can't find a marriage for Sarah and Robert. I suspect they get together in Liverpool between 1881 and 1886 as her eldest son is born in Liverpool, as is Mary. However this won't be the first "married" couple in my tree that weren't legally hitched, so we will see if I can uncover anything.
I did find two possible births for Thomas Francis, so I plan to cross reference the mother's name with the three possible Mary Ellis births I have. It occurs to me that Sarah may needed have married, so birth records might be the way to go.
Of course this isn't going to help me prove I have the right Mary, but at least it will be very thorough even if ultimately wrong! If anything me he an idea of how I can tie or disprove Mary's parent one way or the other, I would appreciate the tip!
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There is (or was) quite a lot about Liverpool living conditions, social history etc on the internet. A lot of the links I had to excellent sites are broken unfortunately.
Ged Fagan's In A City Living - Yo Liverpool is a "go to" site though it has changed since I looked at it ages ago, so I don't know my way around it. It used to be full of wonderful images but I'm not sure if they are still there:
http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?168-Ged-Fagan-s-In-A-City-Living
I will see if I can find any live links and post any I find. :)
Added: Some good photos here (though I prefer the b/w ones):
http://streetsofliverpool.co.uk/page/6/
https://www.liverpoolpicturebook.com/p/l4-l5.html
Added: I think there are links on Ged Fagan's site too (which I have not investigated).
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https://designyoutrust.com/2018/10/powerful-photos-of-awful-liverpool-housing-by-nick-hedges-1969-71/
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Thanks Ruskie - my Dad is going through Liverpool Picture Book and we found a photo of the house he grew up in - long gone now, and the only photo we have of it, so that was really special! The Liverpool Maps have been invaluable, and I'm saving up so I can get a copy of the 1848 one shipped out to Canada.
Liverpool is definitely luckier than most places (I'm looking at YOU, Hull,) in terms of what's available online, I guess it's just I want specific streets and that's rather unreasonable... especially when I want them from 1850 or earlier ;D In fairness though, it doesn't look like there is any trace of some of the places my family comes from thanks to the Blitz, but I'm lucky that my dad used to patrol some of the areas back when he was a copper, so I've got access to a ready-made street directory.
I did also come across Ed Farrell's paintings of historical Liverpool and I'm desperately hoping that he makes them available to purchase soon in print form. Have you checked them out? His reconstruction of the Workhouse is particularly well done, as is the picture of the area between Marybone and Scotland Road in the early 1800s (other side of my tree from this lot).
Considering how much time I spent in Liverpool in my youth, and how much it's changed in the last twenty years, I shouldn't be surprised how different it was for each generation. Anyway, now I'm off to mourn the loss of Quiggins, and start mapping all the pubs that my parents and I have drank at over the years :-D
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Anything that the Blitz didn't take out clearances over the years probably did. Now there have been clearances of clearances of clearances I believe .... :( Last time I was in L'pool I saw some nice little terraces, easily renovate-able which were marked for demolition. Shame to lose all those characterful houses (and other buildings) that can be done up. :'(
I will have a little look at Ed Farrell's work. :)
Added: ooh yes, very interesting work - a lot of detail. you should him send a message asking about prints. ;)
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Hi
Regarding the Toxteth Park burial in 1888 for Robert Ellis found by Ruskin - this is not our man - he was a master mariner and was the husband of Eliza Jane Ellis.
Alan
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Hi
Regarding the Toxteth Park burial in 1888 for Robert Ellis found by Ruskin - this is not our man - he was a master mariner and was the husband of Eliza Jane Ellis.
Alan
That is a shame, but good to eliminate him anyway. Can I ask where you found the information. I was hoping it would be him as he lived in the area. His age varied through the censuses, so probably best to broaden the search. :)
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Hi Ruskie,
Yes - found it on Toxteth Park Cemetery Inscriptions (a site produced by Robert and Rose Anderson).
Just been trying to find possible deaths for Robert and Sarah - working from the 1881 census showing their ages a 54 and 55. Guesswork really without certificates, but a death for Sarah Ellis in Toxteth Park registration district in 1885 age 60 and possibly Robert Ellis in Liverpool registration district in 1890 age 64.
Nearest I can currently see, but as you say their ages vary greatly so it is a bit of a problem finding the right one..
Alan
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Thanks Alan. Lets just hope that Robert and Sarah are the right parents. ;)
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Hi,
Been trying to reconcile Robert Ellis's birth place ranging from Gurley, Wales to Cargurly, Ireland to Chester!
Nearest possibility I can see is CAERGWRLE in North Wales. This is a hamlet near to Wrexham and close to the England/Wales border - in fact it is 10 miles from Chester. Maybe in England it would be pronounced as Cargurly?
Alan
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Hi,
Some more food for thought -
1851 census in Flintshire - Hope - District 2d (which covers Caergwrle) -
Mary Ellis, Widow age 65 - Pauper - born Pulford, Cheshire
Catherine daughter age 27 - born Hope
Robert son age 26 - born Hope (occupation is a Labourer)
Mary daughter age 4 - whose daughter is she? - born Wrexham
Robert Davies visitor
Living in Caergwrle.
Worth exploring more?
Alan
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They are definitely worth exploring, Alan. I will take a look on a bit. I think I need to widen the net on Mary's potential births as well, if nothing else I can eliminate some options. I have ordered John Emmett's will as well, hopefully he really liked his brother in law or father in law and left them something!
I think the burial indexes for the whole of Liverpool are due to go on Ancestry at some point this year, so if nothing else I will have more options to search through.
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Lots of co-incidences with that family Alan, so definitely worth chasing them up in other censuses to track their movements :)