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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: Jool on Tuesday 09 April 19 19:53 BST (UK)

Title: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Jool on Tuesday 09 April 19 19:53 BST (UK)
I have spotted a Cabinet Card for sale on Ebay and I would appreciate any opinions on the age of the lady in the photograph.  Written on the back of the photograph is Mrs. Dodson March 23rd 1884 and the photographer was Mrs. Williams of Wolverhampton.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VICTORIAN-1884-CABINET-PHOTO-MRS-DODSON-WOLVERHAMPTON-WILLIAMS-PHOTOGRAPHER/312554104741?hash=item48c5ad27a5:g:akoAAOSwaKVclS7-

I am wondering if this lady may be my OH's GG Grandmother Martha Dodson (nee Kendrick) who was born March Q 1840 and lived in Wolverhampton.  I cannot see another Mrs Dodson in Wolverhampton at the time who would fit the photo.

I would be grateful of any opinion or observations on the lady.
Thank you in advance for any help.

Jool

Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Viktoria on Tuesday 09 April 19 22:19 BST (UK)
Hair still dark and not many wrinkles really,not as old as sixty but more than forty ,so let’s say fiftyish.
Sorry can’t be more specific,a very strong face .
Probably not a pretty girl but good strong features that would age well.
Hope you get a more exact opinion.
Viktoria.
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Treetotal on Tuesday 09 April 19 22:22 BST (UK)
Hi Jool...in my opinion she looks to be in her 40s...she doesn't appear to be going grey and her jawline still appears quite firm and has not yet developed jowls. People then did often look older than their years.
Carol
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Ruskie on Tuesday 09 April 19 22:36 BST (UK)
Before reading the earlier replies, I had settled on 40s too.

Added: I didn’t notice the dates you mentioned either Jool.  :) Seems to fit perfectly with your OH’s relative’s dates.  ;)
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Jool on Tuesday 09 April 19 22:37 BST (UK)
Thank you Victoria and Carol for your opinions on this lady' age.  I thought she looked in her 50's, but I always think people in old photographs look older than they are.  Good point about the hair not yet going grey.

I have had to stop myself from getting excited about finding this photo as I can't be sure that she is my Mrs Dodson.  If she is my Martha Dodson then she is the second wife of James Dodson in my avatar.

I am going to buy the photo anyway in case I can somehow prove who she is.  My F.I.L. has lots of unidentified family photos so I will see if I can find a match in his collection.

Thanks again for your input, I wanted to run it past Rootschatters first in case I was way off the mark with her age  ;D
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Jool on Tuesday 09 April 19 22:37 BST (UK)
Thanks for looking too Ruskie, another one voting for the right age  ;)
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Ruskie on Tuesday 09 April 19 22:41 BST (UK)
I think you should buy it. Not much to lose if it isn’t her and it’s a nice photo anyway.

Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Treetotal on Tuesday 09 April 19 22:44 BST (UK)
The age spots on the photo make her face look puffy which is aging, but if they were removed, I think she would look her true age. I would buy it Jool and compare the features with other photos to see if there is a family likeness.
Carol
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Jool on Tuesday 09 April 19 22:46 BST (UK)
I think you should buy it. Not much to lose if it isn’t her and it’s a nice photo anyway.

Yes I am just signing in to Ebay now.  For less than £2 including postage it's worth it  :)
I think I will also email the seller to ask where they got the photo and if there were any others with it.  I have checked their other items for sale but there is nothing else connected with the family.
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Jool on Tuesday 09 April 19 22:50 BST (UK)
The age spots on the photo make her face look puffy which is aging, but if they were removed, I thing she would look her true age. I would buy it Jool and compare the features with other photos to see if there is a family likeness.
Carol

Yes I agree, I thought the marks on the photo or the scan quality may have made her face look a bit puffy and lumpy.  If I squint at her it takes a few years off her  ;D
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Jool on Tuesday 09 April 19 22:54 BST (UK)
Just bought her, I can't wait to see the original now  :D
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Ruskie on Tuesday 09 April 19 23:12 BST (UK)
Just bought her, I can't wait to see the original now  :D

How exciting. I think we all dream of finding long lost photos of family on the internet. I really hope she is your Martha.  :)

Is her headwear "normal" headwear for the era or does it have some significance?
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Jool on Tuesday 09 April 19 23:19 BST (UK)
I was wondering about the headwear too Ruskie.  The seller suggested it may be a nurse's cap but I'm not sure.  I have no record of Martha ever being a nurse  :-\
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Ruskie on Tuesday 09 April 19 23:26 BST (UK)
I have just tried google but not yet found any similar headwear.

Though there is nothing like Mrs Dodson's here I found this quite interesting:
https://www.mimimatthews.com/2015/08/30/fashionable-caps-for-19th-century-matrons-both-young-and-old/
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Ruskie on Tuesday 09 April 19 23:31 BST (UK)
I just had a thought .... I think nurses had to be single, so you would not find a nurse who was a "Mrs".... unless the matrons were called "Mrs" as housekeepers were, even if they were unmarried. :-\

Someone else might be able to clarify that and give suggestions about the headwear.  :)
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Jool on Tuesday 09 April 19 23:50 BST (UK)
Interesting link Ruskie, there are some lovely portraits on there.

My Martha Dodson didn't have an occupation listed on any of the censuses.  Martha's husband had his own drapers shop for years (before he became a postie, but that's another story) so I would expect her to have had access to good quality fabric for her clothes. It is a little difficult to tell on the Mrs Dodson photo how good or fashionable her outfit is.
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Ruskie on Tuesday 09 April 19 23:57 BST (UK)
Another observation. She is wearing earrings and a brooch. Nurses would not wear these would they? I am therefore guessing that Mrs Dodson is not a nurse and that is not nurse's headwear. :)



Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Jool on Wednesday 10 April 19 00:03 BST (UK)
I don't think it's nurse's headwear either, but I have no Idea what that hat is all about.  It reminds me a little of Queen Victoria.
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: McGroger on Wednesday 10 April 19 05:21 BST (UK)
Jool, would you mind if restorers gave your pic a clean-up ( a "facial lumpectomy" as it were ;D)?
Peter
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Viktoria on Wednesday 10 April 19 10:03 BST (UK)
The cap she wears is indeed like Queen Viktoria’s  Widow’s cap.
Whether she set the  fashion or it was tradition I am not certain.
Albert died 1861’December.
Enjoy your purchase.
Viktoria.
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Trishanne on Wednesday 10 April 19 10:08 BST (UK)
Jool, I think you are on the right track when you think Queen Victoria for the headdress. Evidently she started to wear this after Albert died, when she was only 42 and it became known as her widows cap.
It became a fashion item but I'm not sure if it was only worn by widows. Is it possible that Mrs Dodson was a widow?
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Trishanne on Wednesday 10 April 19 10:10 BST (UK)
Sorry Viktoria, we posted at the same time. Great minds think alike!!
 
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Jool on Wednesday 10 April 19 18:23 BST (UK)
Peter, it would be lovely to see the restorers give her a clean up.  I hope the scan is good enough for you to work with, and I suppose it's OK to use the scan now I have paid for the photo and it is in the post.

I had to laugh at "facial lumpectomy"  ;D
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Jool on Wednesday 10 April 19 18:26 BST (UK)
Viktoria and Pat, the fact that it may be a widow's cap does concern me a little.  If Mrs Dodson in the photo is a widow, then she is not my Martha.  Both Martha and her husband James died in 1905  :-\
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Trishanne on Wednesday 10 April 19 19:00 BST (UK)
Jool, I can only find information that Queen Victoria made this fashionable, but I can't find out whether it was just for widows or for all ladies around that time.
I have got rid of the lumps, I think she does look younger now, I've also given her a bit of colour.
Pat
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Jool on Wednesday 10 April 19 19:07 BST (UK)
Thank you Pat for those lovely restores, she does look younger with her lumps removed doesn't she.  I can see her features better now too.  I hadn't noticed that chain on the original photo, your colour restore had brought that out.  Thank you  :)
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Jool on Wednesday 10 April 19 19:49 BST (UK)
Pat, I've been doing some reading on Queen Victoria's widow's cap and so far I can't find any reference to women other than widows wearing it.  I am getting doubtful now that it is Martha but I wont give up yet.

Even if the lady in the photo is not my Martha, at least "Mrs. Dodson" has a home now and I will look after her.  I will have another look on Ancestry and FindMyPast later to see if I can find a widowed Mrs Dodson who may fit the bill.
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: McGroger on Wednesday 10 April 19 22:00 BST (UK)
My try. :)
Peter
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Treetotal on Wednesday 10 April 19 22:23 BST (UK)
Jool have you considered the fact that as a Draper's wife,  she may have made the cap, to advertise the materials available at the Draper's shop.
Carol
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Jool on Wednesday 10 April 19 22:42 BST (UK)
That's a lovely job Peter (a great facial lumpectomy ;D), thank you for taking the time to restore her.  She certainly looks younger than I first thought she was.  It's amazing how much detail comes out of a photo when it's restored.
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Jool on Wednesday 10 April 19 22:44 BST (UK)
Jool have you considered the fact that as a Draper's wife,  she may have made the cap, to advertise the materials available at the Draper's shop.
Carol

That's a good point Carol, I hadn't thought of that.  You have restored my faith in believing it may be Martha  :)
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Treetotal on Wednesday 10 April 19 22:50 BST (UK)
I also wondered whether James had any Brothers who married and died in that location.
Carol
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Jool on Wednesday 10 April 19 23:02 BST (UK)
I also wondered whether James had any Brothers who married and died in that location.
Carol

I did have a look to see if there were any other Mrs. Dodsons in the family that could fit, but no luck.

James and his siblings were born in Liverpool and he was the only one to move to Wolverhampton.  He had 2 brothers, one died in childhood and the other brother John died in 1886 in Chester.  John and his wife were living separately in 1881 and she remarried in 1887 in Liverpool.
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Treetotal on Wednesday 10 April 19 23:13 BST (UK)
Oh ok....we can rule out it being James's Sil then. I have to say that she does appear to be slightly amused as though she is suppressing a smile and doesn't look to be in mourning, you don't usually see jewellery worn during the morning period. Having said that,  From what I have read, it seems that the white mourning cap was worn in the later mourning period and the black one at the beginning. They were also seen to be a symbol of wealth, respectability and social standing.
Carol
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: sparrett on Wednesday 10 April 19 23:20 BST (UK)
Just an observation here.
The jewellery she is wearing is in very dark tones.  Hard to say in a black and white photo of course, but I would suggest the earrings are tiny flowers made in jet, the favoured gem for mourning jewellery.

Sue
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Jool on Wednesday 10 April 19 23:37 BST (UK)
Just an observation here.
The jewellery she is wearing is in very dark tones.  Hard to say in a black and white photo of course, but I would suggest the earrings are tiny flowers made in jet, the favoured gem for mourning jewellery.

Sue

Thanks for your observation Sue, the jewellery does look very dark.  Now that you mention it I have heard of jet being used for mourning jewellery.

I'm getting more confused by the minute  :-\ 
We have a Wolverhampton photo of a Mrs. Dodson who is wearing a widows cap and possibly jet mourning jewellery with a suppressed smile on her face, and the only matching Mrs Dodson in Wolverhampton at the time is Martha Dodson whose husband is very much alive  ;D
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Treetotal on Wednesday 10 April 19 23:48 BST (UK)
Will the real Mrs. Dodson please stand up  ;D ;D ;D
Carol


Added: There is also the option of looking for a Dodson death in that area and time frame...and on that note, I'll say goodnight and good luck Jool  ;D
 
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Jool on Wednesday 10 April 19 23:52 BST (UK)
Will the real Mrs. Dodson please stand up  ;D ;D ;D
Carol

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Jool on Wednesday 10 April 19 23:57 BST (UK)
Carol, I have already checked for Dodson deaths.... 

Between 1880 and 1884 there are only 2 Dodson deaths in the whole of Staffordshire, a 67 year old woman in Lichfield and a 7 year old boy in Dudley  ::)

A big thank you to everyone who has offered suggestions to help with Mrs. Dodson, and thanks again to Pat and Peter for the great restores.
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: arthurk on Thursday 11 April 19 11:35 BST (UK)
Could she be mourning a parent, who wouldn't be a Dodson?
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Jool on Thursday 11 April 19 18:59 BST (UK)
Could she be mourning a parent, who wouldn't be a Dodson?

Hi Arthur, thanks for the suggestion.
Martha's mother died in 1874 and her father in 1878, and all of her siblings died in the 1900's, so we can rule them out.

Her husband James had a spinster sister (also called Martha Dodson  ::)) whose death was registered in April Q 1884 in Liverpool. It's possible that she could have died in March which would fit the date of the photo.  Having said that, I'm not sure she would have had her photo took in a widows cap to mourn her sister-in-law.  From what I understand the widows cap was only for widows, not for mourning of other family. 

The original photo arrived in the post today and apart from the age spots it's in perfect condition, no dents or damage to the edges (the edges are gold).  It appears to have been in a photo album at some time, you can see a clean arched shape at the top above the age spots.  I don't think it's been in a frame as there are no indentations.

Anyway, the Martha mystery continues  :)
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: arthurk on Thursday 11 April 19 19:10 BST (UK)
Having said that, I'm not sure she would have had her photo took in a widows cap to mourn her sister-in-law.  From what I understand the widows cap was only for widows, not for mourning of other family.

Of course - you've all been writing about a widow's cap and I was unconsciously thinking of mourning in general. Sometimes I need to fully engage brain before replying  ::)
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Jool on Thursday 11 April 19 19:15 BST (UK)
Having said that, I'm not sure she would have had her photo took in a widows cap to mourn her sister-in-law.  From what I understand the widows cap was only for widows, not for mourning of other family.

Of course - you've all been writing about a widow's cap and I was unconsciously thinking of mourning in general. Sometimes I need to fully engage brain before replying  ::)

No problem Arthur, as there is no obvious Widow Dodson around we have to explore all possibilities  :)
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Treetotal on Thursday 11 April 19 20:20 BST (UK)
How about this for a scenario....Mrs D was bored so she went to Mr D's drapers shop to help out. Mr D was busy serving customers and Mrs D was busily sweeping and dusting and getting in his way, so, having just bought a shed load of over produced white lacy fabric at a knock down price, he sets her to work making Copycat versions of Queen Vic's Mourning Caps. That done, he promptly instructs her to take herself, cap in hand, off to the photographer's to have her photo taken in said handmade cap. Doing her very best to suppress her amusement she carried out his request. Having done as Mr D instructed she returns with a cabinet card photo of herself wearing said cap which Mr D proudly displays in his window to attract customers to come in and buy the latest, must have cap as worn by her Majesty.
However, rumours were soon to circulate that Mrs D was now sadly a widow, prompting an irate Mr D to remove the offending photo from his display and sell it on eBay

Carol
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Jool on Thursday 11 April 19 20:34 BST (UK)
Carol, It sounds perfectly plausible to me, I'm sure he must have had an account with Ye Olde Ebaye.  I'm going with your theory as there isn't another one  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: aus*jen on Monday 15 April 19 08:05 BST (UK)
The only comment I can make is that Mrs. Dodson's cap does not feature the 'widow's peak'
that is prominent in Queen Victoria's widow's cap.

Jen.
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Jool on Monday 15 April 19 20:04 BST (UK)
The only comment I can make is that Mrs. Dodson's cap does not feature the 'widow's peak'
that is prominent in Queen Victoria's widow's cap.

Jen.

Good point Jen (no pun intended ;D), the cap does have a more rounded front to it. 

I can't find anything else that it could be though.  It is a bit similar to some matron's caps I have seen but, as has already been mentioned, I don't think she would have been wearing jewellery if she was in the nursing profession and the only occupation she has listed was a General Servant in 1861 before her marriage.

Mrs. Dodson is making this hard work isn't she  :)
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Treetotal on Monday 15 April 19 23:05 BST (UK)
Jool have you tried doing a google image match?...there may just be another one out there of her or with similar headdress that has other information with it. Or, using the surname and place name in the pictures on Ancestry as someone may have a photo of her in their tree.
Carol
Title: Re: Help with the age of "Mrs. Dodson" please
Post by: Jool on Wednesday 17 April 19 19:52 BST (UK)
Jool have you tried doing a google image match?...there may just be another one out there of her or with similar headdress that has other information with it. Or, using the surname and place name in the pictures on Ancestry as someone may have a photo of her in their tree.
Carol

Carol, I tried google image match as you suggested but sadly nothing of any help came up. I had never heard of google image match before, thanks for the tip, it could be useful for other photos :)

I also tried various search terms on google images for other Wolverhampton photos with no luck, no joy on Ancestry photos either.

Thanks Carol for your interest in Mrs. Dodson, I think I will have to put her to one side for now until I can get my hands on F.I.L's family photo collection to look for a likeness of her.

On a positive note, by searching for more information on Martha Dodson (wife of James), I have made a breakthrough on another Martha Dodson (mother of James), so something good has come out of this  ;D