RootsChat.Com

Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Cardiganshire => Topic started by: pdaviesoz on Thursday 11 April 19 04:11 BST (UK)

Title: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: pdaviesoz on Thursday 11 April 19 04:11 BST (UK)
Hi all, messaging from Oz (Australia),
My Paternal G-G Grandmother Catherine Jones married Charles Davies (Gardener) May 23 1879, in Aberystwyth (Vol. 11b, p91). She was listed in the paper as residing "Bridge Street, Aberystwyth". They then emigrated to Australia 1880.

We cannot find her death record in NSW to confirm her parents, though recently found an old family postcard from Thomas Stephen Jones to "Uncle Charles and Aunty Catherine". Tom's father was Henry Morris Jones, who we THINK was Catherine's brother, with father (from death notice) Stephen Jones and mother Elizabeth Joseph.

I cannot find any census info (MyHeritage or Ancestry) linking the names, and have no other clue than Catherine's residence before marriage (above).
I would REALLY appreciate any clues that may exist at your end. I've tried searching online Newspapers in Wales with no success so far.
Thanks in advance,

Paul Davies ;D

Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: EmyrBorth on Thursday 11 April 19 11:17 BST (UK)
Hi
Aberystwyth is in CARDIGANSHIRE.
Emyr
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: DCB on Thursday 11 April 19 11:22 BST (UK)
I was just about to post the same.

An additional note from the marriage is that it was at Bethel Chapel, Aberystwyth.

The marriage certificate might be the best way forward, to confirm the father's name and his occupation etc

David
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: Milliepede on Thursday 11 April 19 11:42 BST (UK)
Quote
My Paternal G-G Grandmother Catherine Jones married Charles Davies (Gardener) May 23 1879

Does it give her age?
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: pdaviesoz on Thursday 11 April 19 21:53 BST (UK)
Sorry, Welsh Geography is not my strong point. Nevertheless, what is the likelihood of travel between shires?
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: CaroleW on Thursday 11 April 19 22:43 BST (UK)
Buy a copy of her marriage cert which will give her fathers name and occupation and also her age.  If father is Stephen then you have your answer

With a surname like Jones - you at least need to have a rough idea of her birthyear
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: Gadget on Thursday 11 April 19 22:52 BST (UK)
Also here:

Threads merged.
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: CaroleW on Thursday 11 April 19 22:58 BST (UK)
Marriages March qtr 1843   
JONES    Stephan         Aberystwith    27   27    
JOSEPH    Elizabeth         Aberystwith    27   27    
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: CaroleW on Thursday 11 April 19 23:04 BST (UK)
Births March qtr 1858   
Jones    Catharine        Aberystwith    11b   61

Mothers maiden name was Joseph

No Henry Morris Jones with mmn Joseph
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: wivenhoe on Thursday 11 April 19 23:07 BST (UK)
Cambrian News       30 May 1879
DAVIES - JONES   May 23 at the Bethel Chapel, Aberystwyth by the Rev J A MORRIS, Charles DAVIES, gardener, School-lane, Aberystwyth, to Catherine JONES, Bridge-street, Aberystwyth.

JONES and DAVIES are really common names in Wales.  You need to see the marriage certificate to see how fathers are named, also names of witnesses.

What children did they have in Australia....where...when....

When and where did Charles and Catherine die.
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: CaroleW on Thursday 11 April 19 23:10 BST (UK)
Possible death of Stephen

Deaths June qtr 1868   
Jones    Stephen    50    Aberystwith    11b   49
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: CaroleW on Thursday 11 April 19 23:29 BST (UK)
1851 census for Broncastellan (Cardiganshire - Aberystwyth RD).  All children shown as b Bowstreet Cardiganshire

Stephen Jones    31 b Clarach - Cardiganshire - miner
Elizabeth     37 b Llanbadarn-Fawr - Cardiganshire
Anne 8 b Bowstreet
John 5
Eliza 2
Thomas 1
HO107 Piece 2485 Folio 390 Page 3

The 1861 for Broncastellan is missing

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/articles/census-for-england-wales-and-scotland-missing-pieces
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: CaroleW on Thursday 11 April 19 23:41 BST (UK)
Quote
When and where did Charles and Catherine die.

Quote
We cannot find her death record in NSW
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: wivenhoe on Thursday 11 April 19 23:49 BST (UK)

QLD BDM births
1881   C6328   DAVIES Elizabeth          parents   Charles / Catherine JONES
1883   C7531   DAVIES Edward John           parents   Charles / Catherine JONES
1886   C4527   DAVIES Charles Stephen   parents   Charles / Catherine JONES
1889   C5802   DAVIES Catherine Maria   parents   Charles / Catherine JONES

QLD BDM death
1975   B62398   DAVIES  Archibald Cearadoc  parents   Charles DAVIES / Catherine JONES
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: wivenhoe on Friday 12 April 19 00:56 BST (UK)

"..postcard from Thomas Stephen Jones to "Uncle Charles and Aunty Catherine". "

Can we have some information about this postcard. Any dates or address on it?

What is the image on the card?
If you can scan both sides of the card and show it here, it would be useful.
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: pdaviesoz on Friday 12 April 19 03:42 BST (UK)
Thanks guys for your quick answers. We have all the BDM stuff for Australia EXCEPT Catherine's death.

CaroleW - awesome finding the birth record - Thanks. Where does it show the mother's maiden name? I can only see the reference through MyHeritage (11b 63). Don't know how to see the actual record AT 11b 63. Is there a way to do that without paying for a Certificate?
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: pdaviesoz on Friday 12 April 19 04:06 BST (UK)
Attached scans of the PC from Thomas Stephen (Banjo) Jones m Annie Surtees. We have his BDM, and his father's (Henry Morris Jones). Need to try and confirm Catherine's link to the same father as HMJ (Stephen Jones)
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: pdaviesoz on Friday 12 April 19 04:19 BST (UK)
Again, Sorry. Original post was in the wrong shire :-[. We don't do a lot of Welsh geography in Oz....
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: pdaviesoz on Friday 12 April 19 04:28 BST (UK)
Children of Charles and Catherine: We have filled in nearly all the blanks and contacted long-lost cousins. All on Davies/Dearman Family tree on MyHeritage.
Elizabeth b 1881 Charters Towers Qld m Stephen Paull 1900
Edward John b 1883 (my G-Grandfather)
Charles Stephen b 1885 Charters Towers Qld
Catherine Maria (later Gillon) and Lily May (later Butterworth) TWINS b 1889 Charters Towers (though lily is registered in NSW ????)
Morris Llewellyn Davies b 1892 Nundle NSW
Archibald Caradoc b 1895 Nundle NSW
Gladys b 1898 d 1899
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: wivenhoe on Friday 12 April 19 05:27 BST (UK)
What death information do you have for Charles DAVIES?

QLD BDM births
1881   C6328   DAVIES Elizabeth      parents Charles / Catherine JONES
1883   C7531   Edward John             parents Charles / Catherine JONES
1886   C4527   Charles Stephen              parents Charles / Catherine JONES
1889   C5802   Catherine Maria              parents Charles / Catherine JONES

BDM NSW births
16389/1890    DAVIES  Lily M           parents   Charles / Catherine   @ Hillgrove
34284/1892    DAVIES  Morris S        parents   Charles / Catherine   @ Tamworth
7923/1895     DAVIES  Archibald C     parents   Charles / Catherine   @ Tamworth
14977/1897   DAVIES  Gladys G        parents   Charles / Catherine    @ Nundle

BDM NSW marriage
1330/1900   DAVIES Elizabeth          marr.  PAULL Stephen                 @ Gundagai
11243/1908 DAVIES Catherine M      mar    GILLON Alfred H               @ Lithgow
11187/1917 DAVIES Lily M               marr.   BUTTERWORTH Alfred E   @ Petersham

BDM NSW death
3729/1934   DAVIES  Catherine           parents Stephen M / Catherine   @ Marrickville (10 March)
5589/1960   GILLON  Catherine Maria  parents Charles / Catherine        @ Campsie 
25862/1937 GILLON  Alfred Henry       parents  Thomas / Jane              @ Bankstown


Use QLD BDM search to find the other people you have mentioned......Thomas Stephen/s JONES....Henry Morris JONES.......marriages...deaths.......good information to construct family for these people in Queensland.

Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: wivenhoe on Friday 12 April 19 06:49 BST (UK)
Removed
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: CaroleW on Friday 12 April 19 17:06 BST (UK)
Reply 15 refers

I found her mmn using the GRO website and searching for Jones births with a mmn of Joseph from 1843 to 1864

 https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp  registration and searching is free

The one I posted fitted Aberystwyth but there were no entries for a Henry Morris Jones using that combination of names.   There is also no birth reg for that name in the Aberystwyth RD

You need to be aware  there is another possible Jones/Joseph marriage in Aberystwyth in 1855 so without buying the birth cert it's not possible to say which family the 1858 birth for Catherine belongs to

Each of the children on the 1851 census I posted show up with a mmn of Joseph so it is the right family for Stephen & Elizabeth

Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: pdaviesoz on Saturday 13 April 19 04:47 BST (UK)
CaroleW - Thanks so much for that clue. I didn't know that source.

Is it possible that the "Morris" middle name wasn't official? I know Charles "gave" himself a middle name "W..?" which isn't on any official docs.

The other possibility is that Tom calling Catherine "Aunty" wasn't a blood relationship, yet she called one of her sons "Morris". Or even that she and Henry were cousins not siblings.

I really appreciate your help. I can now try and confirm other people on the UK side.
PaulD
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: pdaviesoz on Saturday 13 April 19 04:49 BST (UK)
Wivenhoe,

Charles died 1931 Manly at his son's house.

PaulD
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: pdaviesoz on Saturday 13 April 19 04:55 BST (UK)
CaroleW,

The Census info doesn't name Catherine. Was that implied in the search, or is it possible its a different family as you suggested by the other marriage 1855?

PAuLD
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: wivenhoe on Saturday 13 April 19 06:26 BST (UK)
NSW BDM death
9772/1931 DAVIES  Charles parents John / Catherine  @ Manly

Can you list all the information on this certificate please.


FreeBDM SepQ  1879  Aberystwth  Vol 11B / page 73
JONES Henry marr. OWENS Hannah

GRO births
JONES, Thomas  Stephens  mms. OWENS 
1878  DecQ  Aberystwyth  Vol 11B  Page 71 

JONES, John Morris    mms.   OWENS 
1883  MarQ  Aberystwyth  Vol 11B  Page 66

QLD BDM births
1885   C4724   JONES   John David   parents     Henry / Hannah OWENS
1889   C6257   JONES   William Henry   parents     Henry / Hannah OWENS

QLD BDM death
1884   C2247   JONES   John Morris          parents     Henry JONES / Hannah OWENS
1886   C1934   JONES    John David     parents     Henry JONES / Hannah OWENS
1913   C2293  JONES  Henry Morris         parents    Stephen JONES / Elizabeth JOSEPH
1933   B20843  JONES   Thomas Stephen  parents     Henry Morris JONES / Hannah OWENS

QLD BDM marriage
1912   C1959  JONES Thomas Stephen  marr.    SURTEES   Annie   


https://graves.brisbane.qld.gov.au/  (Brisbane Cemeteries)

Toowong Cemetery                    same plot
JONES Thomas Stephen             buried 16 Jun 1933   54yrs
JONES Annie                      buried 3 Nov 1942

QLD BDM death
1942   C5041 JONES Annie          parents  John SURTEES / Mary Ann BROPHY
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: CaroleW on Saturday 13 April 19 12:27 BST (UK)
Reply 24 refers

Catherine wasn't born until 1858 so will only appear in the 1861 census onwards. See my earlier reply that the 1861 for Broncastellan is missing.

If I have the right death for Stephen - he will not appear on the 1871 census.  I have searched that census extensively but no trace of him so I suspect it was the right death.

I cannot correctly identify Catherine on the 1871 as there is no entry with a mother Elizabeth.

The 1855 marriage I mentioned was Simon Jones but no 1861 or 1871 entry for a Catherine with a father Simon.

Unfortunately - the  only way forward is to purchase the 1858 birth cert but you can buy a pdf version for 7GB 

Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: MaureeninNY on Saturday 13 April 19 12:48 BST (UK)
Does anyone think that the family started using the surname MORRIS on census records post 1851?

There's a MORRIS family in Elerch on the 1861 (parents Stephen and Elizabeth) that sort of  "fits".
By 1871 Elizabeth is a widow (still as MORRIS).

Also,Henry and Hannah with son Thomas just might be the MORRIS family living in Ceulan Y Maesmawr in 1881.

Maureen
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: wivenhoe on Saturday 13 April 19 22:24 BST (UK)
This is the purpose of your enquiry -

"...We cannot find her death (Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth) record in NSW to confirm her parents,"

This death certificate for Charles, husband of Catherine, will give a clue to his marital status. It will identify his burial place, which might also be cemetery for Catherine.

Can you list all the information on this certificate please.

NSW BDM death
9772/1931 DAVIES  Charles parents John / Catherine  @ Manly


This is possibly her death
BDM NSW death
3729/1934   DAVIES  Catherine           parents Stephen M / Catherine   @ Marrickville (10 March)
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: pdaviesoz on Saturday 13 April 19 23:59 BST (UK)
Wivenhoe,

We don't have Charles' death certificate, though that clue may be worthwhile. Catherine was not listed in any Newspaper reports (Trove) concerning his death, and is not buried with him (Photo of the grave on BillionGraves and MyHeritage). Interestingly it's literally at the end of the street where my dad grew up across the road from his primary school and he never knew. Family rumour from recently-contacted lost cousins says that there was a "matriarch" of the family who lived to a very old age in Scone NSW. I have contacted the Scone Historical society but no luck so far.

However, your link to Stephen and Catherine sparks a memory. I THINK I saw a Census link for Stephen M and Catherine in 1861. Could Stephen have remarried in between Henry (whose death cert. lists Elizabeth as mother) and Catherine?

We did think that Catherine could be the 1957 death listed in Burwood with parents John and Margaret Jones, but the Census info lists the Wales Catherine in 1881, when ours was in Qld.

Thanks for Henry Morris' other children - I hadn't thought about that before.

PauLD
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: pdaviesoz on Sunday 14 April 19 00:05 BST (UK)
Wivenhoe,

The listing for Charles' mother is incorrect (typo?) - his wife was Catherine, his mother was Maria Davies (nee Hatfield) m John Davies in Knighton in 1854 (7 Months before Charles was born). We believe they had another son William died age two (1858 from memory) and then daughter Elizabeth b 1861, before John ran off and ended up in New Zealand. Maria then is attached to Thomas Meredith, and the Census lists Elizabeth under that family name.

We have John and Maria's marriage certificate.

Though this typo suggests that Catherine was still alive at the time.

PauLD
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: CaroleW on Sunday 14 April 19 00:12 BST (UK)
Have you seen reply 26
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: pdaviesoz on Sunday 14 April 19 00:33 BST (UK)
   JONES, ELIZABETH       38 
GRO Reference: 1855  M Quarter in ABERYSTWYTH  Volume 11B  Page 70

Wondering if Stephen may have remarried between Henry and Catherine's births? Suggested name for Catherine's mother is Catherine. The above GRO ref is the correct age.

JONES    Stephen        Aberystwyth    11b   139    
Marriages Jun 1855   (>99%)
JONES    Stephen        Aberystwith    11b   103

I've found these possibles, but cannot find exactly where on GRO to look for a match.

PaulD
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: pdaviesoz on Sunday 14 April 19 00:42 BST (UK)
Catharine James
Marriage date:   Jan-Feb-Mar 1855
Marriage place:     Aberystwyth, Cardiganshire, Wales
Volume:   11B
Page:   103

This is a possible. Clue?
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: pdaviesoz on Sunday 14 April 19 00:45 BST (UK)
JONES, CATHERINE       JAMES 
GRO Reference: 1859  D Quarter in ABERYSTWYTH  Volume 11B  Page 52

??????
Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: wivenhoe on Sunday 14 April 19 03:28 BST (UK)
Your research will always be difficult because you do not have......
*** marriage certificate, 1879, which will name Catherine's father, his occupation, names of witnesses...possibly residential addresses...

*** death certificate for Charles DAVIES, died 1931, Manly. It will identify him as widower if Catherine is dead. Who is the informant?....could be Catherine if she is alive.....

You need to see some documentation for events in the lives of the people you are researching.

Have you discounted this death....and why?

BDM NSW death
3729/1934   DAVIES  Catherine           parents Stephen M / Catherine   @ Marrickville (10 March)

How do you know that Catherine is not buried with Charles?

Title: Re: Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth
Post by: pdaviesoz on Monday 15 April 19 00:40 BST (UK)
Discounted no. Issues are the extended family comments that she lived to a ripe old age in Scone, and the mother's name. That's why I was looking at the possibility that Catherine had a different mother to Henry.

Charles is the only mention on the headstone AND the Cemetery records. Also, his mother is listed as Catherine, not Maria, suggesting she was still alive.

At $34 for an email, the death record is beyond us at the moment.

PauLD