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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Cardiganshire => Topic started by: pdaviesoz on Thursday 11 April 19 04:11 BST (UK)
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Hi all, messaging from Oz (Australia),
My Paternal G-G Grandmother Catherine Jones married Charles Davies (Gardener) May 23 1879, in Aberystwyth (Vol. 11b, p91). She was listed in the paper as residing "Bridge Street, Aberystwyth". They then emigrated to Australia 1880.
We cannot find her death record in NSW to confirm her parents, though recently found an old family postcard from Thomas Stephen Jones to "Uncle Charles and Aunty Catherine". Tom's father was Henry Morris Jones, who we THINK was Catherine's brother, with father (from death notice) Stephen Jones and mother Elizabeth Joseph.
I cannot find any census info (MyHeritage or Ancestry) linking the names, and have no other clue than Catherine's residence before marriage (above).
I would REALLY appreciate any clues that may exist at your end. I've tried searching online Newspapers in Wales with no success so far.
Thanks in advance,
Paul Davies ;D
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Hi
Aberystwyth is in CARDIGANSHIRE.
Emyr
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I was just about to post the same.
An additional note from the marriage is that it was at Bethel Chapel, Aberystwyth.
The marriage certificate might be the best way forward, to confirm the father's name and his occupation etc
David
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My Paternal G-G Grandmother Catherine Jones married Charles Davies (Gardener) May 23 1879
Does it give her age?
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Sorry, Welsh Geography is not my strong point. Nevertheless, what is the likelihood of travel between shires?
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Buy a copy of her marriage cert which will give her fathers name and occupation and also her age. If father is Stephen then you have your answer
With a surname like Jones - you at least need to have a rough idea of her birthyear
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Also here:
Threads merged.
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Marriages March qtr 1843
JONES Stephan Aberystwith 27 27
JOSEPH Elizabeth Aberystwith 27 27
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Births March qtr 1858
Jones Catharine Aberystwith 11b 61
Mothers maiden name was Joseph
No Henry Morris Jones with mmn Joseph
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Cambrian News 30 May 1879
DAVIES - JONES May 23 at the Bethel Chapel, Aberystwyth by the Rev J A MORRIS, Charles DAVIES, gardener, School-lane, Aberystwyth, to Catherine JONES, Bridge-street, Aberystwyth.
JONES and DAVIES are really common names in Wales. You need to see the marriage certificate to see how fathers are named, also names of witnesses.
What children did they have in Australia....where...when....
When and where did Charles and Catherine die.
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Possible death of Stephen
Deaths June qtr 1868
Jones Stephen 50 Aberystwith 11b 49
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1851 census for Broncastellan (Cardiganshire - Aberystwyth RD). All children shown as b Bowstreet Cardiganshire
Stephen Jones 31 b Clarach - Cardiganshire - miner
Elizabeth 37 b Llanbadarn-Fawr - Cardiganshire
Anne 8 b Bowstreet
John 5
Eliza 2
Thomas 1
HO107 Piece 2485 Folio 390 Page 3
The 1861 for Broncastellan is missing
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/articles/census-for-england-wales-and-scotland-missing-pieces
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When and where did Charles and Catherine die.
We cannot find her death record in NSW
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QLD BDM births
1881 C6328 DAVIES Elizabeth parents Charles / Catherine JONES
1883 C7531 DAVIES Edward John parents Charles / Catherine JONES
1886 C4527 DAVIES Charles Stephen parents Charles / Catherine JONES
1889 C5802 DAVIES Catherine Maria parents Charles / Catherine JONES
QLD BDM death
1975 B62398 DAVIES Archibald Cearadoc parents Charles DAVIES / Catherine JONES
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"..postcard from Thomas Stephen Jones to "Uncle Charles and Aunty Catherine". "
Can we have some information about this postcard. Any dates or address on it?
What is the image on the card?
If you can scan both sides of the card and show it here, it would be useful.
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Thanks guys for your quick answers. We have all the BDM stuff for Australia EXCEPT Catherine's death.
CaroleW - awesome finding the birth record - Thanks. Where does it show the mother's maiden name? I can only see the reference through MyHeritage (11b 63). Don't know how to see the actual record AT 11b 63. Is there a way to do that without paying for a Certificate?
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Attached scans of the PC from Thomas Stephen (Banjo) Jones m Annie Surtees. We have his BDM, and his father's (Henry Morris Jones). Need to try and confirm Catherine's link to the same father as HMJ (Stephen Jones)
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Again, Sorry. Original post was in the wrong shire :-[. We don't do a lot of Welsh geography in Oz....
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Children of Charles and Catherine: We have filled in nearly all the blanks and contacted long-lost cousins. All on Davies/Dearman Family tree on MyHeritage.
Elizabeth b 1881 Charters Towers Qld m Stephen Paull 1900
Edward John b 1883 (my G-Grandfather)
Charles Stephen b 1885 Charters Towers Qld
Catherine Maria (later Gillon) and Lily May (later Butterworth) TWINS b 1889 Charters Towers (though lily is registered in NSW ????)
Morris Llewellyn Davies b 1892 Nundle NSW
Archibald Caradoc b 1895 Nundle NSW
Gladys b 1898 d 1899
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What death information do you have for Charles DAVIES?
QLD BDM births
1881 C6328 DAVIES Elizabeth parents Charles / Catherine JONES
1883 C7531 Edward John parents Charles / Catherine JONES
1886 C4527 Charles Stephen parents Charles / Catherine JONES
1889 C5802 Catherine Maria parents Charles / Catherine JONES
BDM NSW births
16389/1890 DAVIES Lily M parents Charles / Catherine @ Hillgrove
34284/1892 DAVIES Morris S parents Charles / Catherine @ Tamworth
7923/1895 DAVIES Archibald C parents Charles / Catherine @ Tamworth
14977/1897 DAVIES Gladys G parents Charles / Catherine @ Nundle
BDM NSW marriage
1330/1900 DAVIES Elizabeth marr. PAULL Stephen @ Gundagai
11243/1908 DAVIES Catherine M mar GILLON Alfred H @ Lithgow
11187/1917 DAVIES Lily M marr. BUTTERWORTH Alfred E @ Petersham
BDM NSW death
3729/1934 DAVIES Catherine parents Stephen M / Catherine @ Marrickville (10 March)
5589/1960 GILLON Catherine Maria parents Charles / Catherine @ Campsie
25862/1937 GILLON Alfred Henry parents Thomas / Jane @ Bankstown
Use QLD BDM search to find the other people you have mentioned......Thomas Stephen/s JONES....Henry Morris JONES.......marriages...deaths.......good information to construct family for these people in Queensland.
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Removed
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Reply 15 refers
I found her mmn using the GRO website and searching for Jones births with a mmn of Joseph from 1843 to 1864
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp registration and searching is free
The one I posted fitted Aberystwyth but there were no entries for a Henry Morris Jones using that combination of names. There is also no birth reg for that name in the Aberystwyth RD
You need to be aware there is another possible Jones/Joseph marriage in Aberystwyth in 1855 so without buying the birth cert it's not possible to say which family the 1858 birth for Catherine belongs to
Each of the children on the 1851 census I posted show up with a mmn of Joseph so it is the right family for Stephen & Elizabeth
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CaroleW - Thanks so much for that clue. I didn't know that source.
Is it possible that the "Morris" middle name wasn't official? I know Charles "gave" himself a middle name "W..?" which isn't on any official docs.
The other possibility is that Tom calling Catherine "Aunty" wasn't a blood relationship, yet she called one of her sons "Morris". Or even that she and Henry were cousins not siblings.
I really appreciate your help. I can now try and confirm other people on the UK side.
PaulD
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Wivenhoe,
Charles died 1931 Manly at his son's house.
PaulD
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CaroleW,
The Census info doesn't name Catherine. Was that implied in the search, or is it possible its a different family as you suggested by the other marriage 1855?
PAuLD
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NSW BDM death
9772/1931 DAVIES Charles parents John / Catherine @ Manly
Can you list all the information on this certificate please.
FreeBDM SepQ 1879 Aberystwth Vol 11B / page 73
JONES Henry marr. OWENS Hannah
GRO births
JONES, Thomas Stephens mms. OWENS
1878 DecQ Aberystwyth Vol 11B Page 71
JONES, John Morris mms. OWENS
1883 MarQ Aberystwyth Vol 11B Page 66
QLD BDM births
1885 C4724 JONES John David parents Henry / Hannah OWENS
1889 C6257 JONES William Henry parents Henry / Hannah OWENS
QLD BDM death
1884 C2247 JONES John Morris parents Henry JONES / Hannah OWENS
1886 C1934 JONES John David parents Henry JONES / Hannah OWENS
1913 C2293 JONES Henry Morris parents Stephen JONES / Elizabeth JOSEPH
1933 B20843 JONES Thomas Stephen parents Henry Morris JONES / Hannah OWENS
QLD BDM marriage
1912 C1959 JONES Thomas Stephen marr. SURTEES Annie
https://graves.brisbane.qld.gov.au/ (Brisbane Cemeteries)
Toowong Cemetery same plot
JONES Thomas Stephen buried 16 Jun 1933 54yrs
JONES Annie buried 3 Nov 1942
QLD BDM death
1942 C5041 JONES Annie parents John SURTEES / Mary Ann BROPHY
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Reply 24 refers
Catherine wasn't born until 1858 so will only appear in the 1861 census onwards. See my earlier reply that the 1861 for Broncastellan is missing.
If I have the right death for Stephen - he will not appear on the 1871 census. I have searched that census extensively but no trace of him so I suspect it was the right death.
I cannot correctly identify Catherine on the 1871 as there is no entry with a mother Elizabeth.
The 1855 marriage I mentioned was Simon Jones but no 1861 or 1871 entry for a Catherine with a father Simon.
Unfortunately - the only way forward is to purchase the 1858 birth cert but you can buy a pdf version for £7GB
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Does anyone think that the family started using the surname MORRIS on census records post 1851?
There's a MORRIS family in Elerch on the 1861 (parents Stephen and Elizabeth) that sort of "fits".
By 1871 Elizabeth is a widow (still as MORRIS).
Also,Henry and Hannah with son Thomas just might be the MORRIS family living in Ceulan Y Maesmawr in 1881.
Maureen
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This is the purpose of your enquiry -
"...We cannot find her death (Catherine Jones married Charles Davies 1879 Aberystwyth) record in NSW to confirm her parents,"
This death certificate for Charles, husband of Catherine, will give a clue to his marital status. It will identify his burial place, which might also be cemetery for Catherine.
Can you list all the information on this certificate please.
NSW BDM death
9772/1931 DAVIES Charles parents John / Catherine @ Manly
This is possibly her death
BDM NSW death
3729/1934 DAVIES Catherine parents Stephen M / Catherine @ Marrickville (10 March)
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Wivenhoe,
We don't have Charles' death certificate, though that clue may be worthwhile. Catherine was not listed in any Newspaper reports (Trove) concerning his death, and is not buried with him (Photo of the grave on BillionGraves and MyHeritage). Interestingly it's literally at the end of the street where my dad grew up across the road from his primary school and he never knew. Family rumour from recently-contacted lost cousins says that there was a "matriarch" of the family who lived to a very old age in Scone NSW. I have contacted the Scone Historical society but no luck so far.
However, your link to Stephen and Catherine sparks a memory. I THINK I saw a Census link for Stephen M and Catherine in 1861. Could Stephen have remarried in between Henry (whose death cert. lists Elizabeth as mother) and Catherine?
We did think that Catherine could be the 1957 death listed in Burwood with parents John and Margaret Jones, but the Census info lists the Wales Catherine in 1881, when ours was in Qld.
Thanks for Henry Morris' other children - I hadn't thought about that before.
PauLD
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Wivenhoe,
The listing for Charles' mother is incorrect (typo?) - his wife was Catherine, his mother was Maria Davies (nee Hatfield) m John Davies in Knighton in 1854 (7 Months before Charles was born). We believe they had another son William died age two (1858 from memory) and then daughter Elizabeth b 1861, before John ran off and ended up in New Zealand. Maria then is attached to Thomas Meredith, and the Census lists Elizabeth under that family name.
We have John and Maria's marriage certificate.
Though this typo suggests that Catherine was still alive at the time.
PauLD
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Have you seen reply 26
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JONES, ELIZABETH 38
GRO Reference: 1855 M Quarter in ABERYSTWYTH Volume 11B Page 70
Wondering if Stephen may have remarried between Henry and Catherine's births? Suggested name for Catherine's mother is Catherine. The above GRO ref is the correct age.
JONES Stephen Aberystwyth 11b 139
Marriages Jun 1855 (>99%)
JONES Stephen Aberystwith 11b 103
I've found these possibles, but cannot find exactly where on GRO to look for a match.
PaulD
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Catharine James
Marriage date: Jan-Feb-Mar 1855
Marriage place: Aberystwyth, Cardiganshire, Wales
Volume: 11B
Page: 103
This is a possible. Clue?
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JONES, CATHERINE JAMES
GRO Reference: 1859 D Quarter in ABERYSTWYTH Volume 11B Page 52
??????
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Your research will always be difficult because you do not have......
*** marriage certificate, 1879, which will name Catherine's father, his occupation, names of witnesses...possibly residential addresses...
*** death certificate for Charles DAVIES, died 1931, Manly. It will identify him as widower if Catherine is dead. Who is the informant?....could be Catherine if she is alive.....
You need to see some documentation for events in the lives of the people you are researching.
Have you discounted this death....and why?
BDM NSW death
3729/1934 DAVIES Catherine parents Stephen M / Catherine @ Marrickville (10 March)
How do you know that Catherine is not buried with Charles?
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Discounted no. Issues are the extended family comments that she lived to a ripe old age in Scone, and the mother's name. That's why I was looking at the possibility that Catherine had a different mother to Henry.
Charles is the only mention on the headstone AND the Cemetery records. Also, his mother is listed as Catherine, not Maria, suggesting she was still alive.
At $34 for an email, the death record is beyond us at the moment.
PauLD