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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Leicestershire => Topic started by: treegirl on Saturday 13 April 19 17:52 BST (UK)
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Hello!
I was wondering if anyone could help me with trying to track down my great grand aunts?
Harriet SMITH was born in Newark around 1867 was the second daughter born to Thomas and Maria SMITH (also known as SMITH JOHNSON).
Maria SMITH was born in Derby around 1870 and was the third daughter of Thomas and Maria.
By 1881, the family were living in Leicester and Mary and Robert (my g grandfather) had been born too. In this census Maria is recorded as being 10 and Harriet is 14.
By 1891, they have both left the rest of the family.
I think that Harriet married David SPENCER and was living in a court off Caroline Street, Leicester.
There is a possibility that Maria married Herbert SIMPSON and was living in Calais St.
Would anybody be able to check these marriages and subsequent census returns if this is correct?
My Nan didn't know any that her father (Robert) had any siblings and it came as a huge surprise to her when she discovered that he had 5 sisters that she didn't know about years after his death. I would love to try and work out who all the sisters were - although the name Smith is proving problematic!
Many thanks in advance!
TreeGirl :)
ps The eldest daughter, Sarah, was born in Newark around 1865 and I can't find ANY trace of her after 1881 ..... Help!
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Hi
If Thomas Smith, the father, was a Maltster then Harriet married David Spencer on 29 September 1890 at St Saviour, Leicester.
David was a shoe finisher, son of William Spencer, a labourer and Harriet gives her profession as a cigar maker.
Witnesses were Thomas and Mary Smith
On the 1891 census Harriet and David are at 3 Court B, 22 Caroline Street as you think and it looks like the same people. David born Anstey, Leicestershire
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I think Harriet is deceased by 1901 as it looks like David has remarried.
1901 Census has David, a Shoe finisher, born Anstey, Leicestershire with another wife, Amelia and 4 children, some of whom of course could be Harriet's:
William T Spencer, aged 9
James W S Spencer, aged 4
Edith E Spencer, aged 3
Mary A Spencer, aged 1
Hmmmmm.....I have just checked David and Amelia (Gibson or Sibson) marriage on 30 August 1897 at Anstey and he is saying he is a bachelor. Father's details are the same as the marriage to Harriet though as is David's occupation...maybe separated from Harriet?
I will see if I can check out the kids to see if any of them are born to a mother Smith
Edited:
William Thomas Spencer, born Leicester 1891 mother Smith
James currently AWOL
Edith Emily Spencer, born Barrow on Soar 1897 mother Sibson (guess that solves the Gibson bit...)
Mary Ann Spencer, born Barrow on Soar 1899 mother Sibson
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Harriet Spencer death recorded October/November/December 1894 at Barrow On Soar, gives an approximate birth year of 1867.
Don't know why David is saying he is a bachelor though, when strictly he was widowed
Possible more children for David and Harriet ----
Alice, born June Quarter 1893 Barrow on Soar, giving mother as Smith
Robert, born 1894 Barrow on Soar, giving mother as Smith
Robert's birth is in the same quarter as Harriet's death (December) so maybe she died in childbirth?
On the face of it looks like David and Harriet had children William Thomas, Alice and Robert before Harriet died although 1901 suggests only William Thomas survived and indeed it looks like Alice died September Quarter 1893 at Barrow. Robert too died December Quarter 1894 at Barrow
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Thank you, rutht22000 -
I had some of these details and thought that Harriet was mother to William Thomas, but had no idea about Alice. Guessing she died before the 1901 census?
Wonder what happened to William T by 1911 - do you have access to those records at all?
Is it really unusual for David SPENCER to claim to be single when he was a widower? Or just a slip of the tongue/innocent mistake?
The irony of this all is that i think that Amelia SIBSON was a cousin of my 2xg grandmother on my Dad's paternal side!
Thank you for your help!
TreeGirl :)
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Replies overlapped - you answered some of my questions... thank you.
TreeGirl :)
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I will see what I can find about William T
I think David and Amelia had more kids too....be back in a second ;D
Then will have look at Maria and Sarah! ;D
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Thank you, rutht22000 -
I had some of these details and thought that Harriet was mother to William Thomas, but had no idea about Alice. Guessing she died before the 1901 census?
Wonder what happened to William T by 1911 - do you have access to those records at all?
Is it really unusual for David SPENCER to claim to be single when he was a widower? Or just a slip of the tongue/innocent mistake?
The irony of this all is that i think that Amelia SIBSON was a cousin of my 2xg grandmother on my Dad's paternal side!
Thank you for your help!
TreeGirl :)
I did wonder if David was trying to hide something (i.e bigamous marriage) but Harriet's death disproves that. Maybe he just got it wrong.... I'd like to think innocent mistake :)
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I did wonder if David was trying to hide something (i.e bigamous marriage) but Harriet's death disproves that. Maybe he just got it wrong.... I'd like to think innocent mistake :)
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I'd lilke to think so too!!
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William T was with his father and stepmother in 1911 and it looks like he died March Quarter 1971 in Leicester, aged 79.
Edited: he left a Will. William T died on 18 January 1971 at 17 Asfordby Street, Leicester leaving £1,167. No executors named on the probate entry
Death registration gives a birth date of 15 September 1891 but that information is only as reliable as whoever registered the death so I wouldn't take it as correct until/when you get your hands on a birth certificate for him
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Drawing a bit of a blank on Maria Smith. Her marriage (and it does look like on the face of it it was to Herbert Simpson from the census') isn't on the same database as Harriet.
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Older sister Sarah may have married Richard William Whittle (aka William Whittle) and they had a string of kids if it is them from about 1886 in Leicester onwards but can't confirm marriage as yet
I think he might be William Whittle(s) as there is a marriage in 1884 in Leicester for Sarah Smith and William Whittles. 1901 has him as Richard W Whittle though.
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rutht22000 you are amazing!!
Thank you SO much for this - I'm going to check out some of these names with my aunties and see if they ring any bells :)
Could you let me know any names of Simpson/Whittle offspring that I could pursue just in case ... ?
Thank you again,
TreeGirl :)
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okay here we go: ;D
Simpson kids I have found are:
Fanny Elizabeth, b.c. 1890
William Thomas, b.c. 1893 (possible)
Frances Gertrude, b.c. 1895
Frank (Frances' twin) b.c. 1895
Whittle kids I have found are:
Herbert, b.c.1886
Florence, b.c.1889 (might have gone to Canada)
William, b.c. 1892
Walter, b.c. 1894 (might have gone to Canada)
Horace, b.c. 1897
Cyril, b.c. 1899
Baden, b.c.1901 (might actually be Henry Baden)
May, b.c. 1904
Edward, b.c. 1906
I will have proper look tomorrow for any more that I can find ;D
I've found a chunk of baptisms for the Simpson/Whittle offspring so will let you have them tomorrow
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okay here we go: ;D
Simpson kids I have found are:
Fanny Elizabeth, b.c. 1890
William Thomas, b.c. 1893 (possible)
Frances Gertrude, b.c. 1895
Frank (Frances' twin) b.c. 1895
Whittle kids I have found are:
Herbert, b.c.1886
Florence, b.c.1889
William, b.c. 1892
Walter, b.c. 1894 (might have gone to Canada)
Horace, b.c. 1897
Cyril, b.c. 1899
Baden, b.c.1901
May, b.c. 1904
Edward, b.c. 1906
I will have proper look tomorrow for any more that I can find ;D
Amazing! Thank you sooooooo much!
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No problem at all ;D
I think another Whittle offspring went to Canada too - Florence as Mrs W Robinson. Walter was going to live with her assuming its the right people
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Morning!
Right....baptisms here we go:
Whittles:
Thomas William, baptised 22 October 1884 Holy Trinity, Leicester (new one to last list)
Herbert, baptised 26 November 1886 St Saviour, Leicester
Leah, born 18 January 1888, baptised 5 September 1888 at St Barnabas, Leicester (new one)
Florrie, baptised 28 September 1890 St Saviour, Leicester (presume this is Florence)
William, baptised 11 January 1892 St John the Divine, Leicester
Walter, baptised 28 December 1900 St Luke, Leicester
Horace, baptised, 28 December 1900 at St Luke, Leicester
Cyril, baptised 28 December 1900 at St Luke, Leicester
Henry Baden, baptised 28 December 1900 at St Luke, Leicester
May, baptised 5 June 1903 at St Luke, Leicester
Edward, born 12 November 1905, baptised 30 November 1914 St Mark, Leicester
1911 census has William and Sarah having had 11 children, 9 alive at the time of the census and 2 deceased so this is the sum total of kids. I will see if I can find the 2 deaths although judging by the census' its Thomas and Leah that looks like they pass before 1911
Edited: death registration for Thomas William Whittle December Quarter 1887 in Leicester, aged 4 and also Leah Whittle September Quarter 1888 in Leicester aged 0
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Simpsons:
Fanny Elizabeth, baptised 28 September 1890 at St Saviour, Leicester* (died Sept. Quarter 1892)
Frank, baptised 19 July 1895 at St Luke, Leicester (died Sept. Quarter 1895)
Frances Gertrude, baptised 11 September 1895 St Luke, Leicester
looking at the actual baptisms now Frank and Frances clearly aren't twins just baptised a couple of months apart. Parental information is matching so they must be brother and sister.
The son William Thomas I mentioned before I can't find his baptism. He may not have lived to be baptised. Trying to find Herbert and Maria in 1911 to see if I can confirm how many kids they had.
*note is the same date and place as Florrie Whittle. More evidence pointing towards Maria and Sarah being related?
Frances Gertrude married Frederick Newcombe on October 27 1910 at St Luke, Leicester
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Thank you so much for all of this information.
Would you be able to check the Whittles and the Simpsons on the 1911 census and let me know their addresses and Sarah and Maria's registered places of birth?
Many, many thanks for all your help with this :D
TreeGirl :)
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Hi
I have lost the Simpsons by 1911. I can only see the marriage in 1910 for Frances Gertrude and she is on the 1911 only with her husband
Whittles are at 109 Brandon Street, Leicester and Sarah's place of birth is Newark
:)
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Hi
I have lost the Simpsons by 1911. I can only see the marriage in 1910 for Frances Gertrude and she is on the 1911 only with her husband
Whittles are at 109 Brandon Street, Leicester and Sarah's place of birth is Newark
:)
This may be my Sarah! That's amazing! Do you have access to the marriage details for Sarah and Richard/William?
TreeGirl :)
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Hi
I can only see the registration in 1884 in Leicester, not the actual certificate unfortunately. To confirm it you'll probably best getting the certificate from the GRO.
its not in the same database as Harriet's (neither is Maria's for that) but it may just be because they aren't available yet.
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rutht22000 -
Just thought I'd let you know that I have done some more digging and I think Sarah Whittle is my Sarah as the link between with Whittles and Spencers is strong.
Having looked on my Welford Rd cemetry disk, I have found Leah and Thomas William Whittle buried in a plot with Robert Spencer. All dates link with those you told me about.
I wouldn't have known any of these names without your help, so thank you VERY much! You're a star!
TreeGirl :)
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There's this posibilty for Herbert in 1911 - right age and occupation
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X759-SC9
All children have mmn seville - except Annie, who I cannot locate. A number also have middle name Simpson, which seems a bit odd, especially as I can;t find a suitable marriage to fit the info given on the census
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That's a possible for second marriage - good find!
Occupation is in the right industry for Herbert and the last time Herbert and Maria are together is 1901. If Annie was born in 1903 it could be a tight squeeze on a second marriage for H.
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Can either of you let me know those details? Family search are not letting me on at the moment for some reason .... ::)
TreeGirl :)
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rutht22000 -
Just thought I'd let you know that I have done some more digging and I think Sarah Whittle is my Sarah as the link between with Whittles and Spencers is strong.
Having looked on my Welford Rd cemetry disk, I have found Leah and Thomas William Whittle buried in a plot with Robert Spencer. All dates link with those you told me about.
I wouldn't have known any of these names without your help, so thank you VERY much! You're a star!
TreeGirl :)
My pleasure :)
Did you get on familysearch to get that information? Haven't been online until now so didn't see your post last night
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Did you get on familysearch to get that information? Haven't been online until now so didn't see your post last night
No, I haven't ... don't know what is going on with Family Search - it just keeps saying that my a/c hasn't been activated - which it has!!
TreeGirl :)
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I'll go and fetch it for you ;D
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Just seen this - thank you so much - again!
TreeGirl :)