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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Pennines on Saturday 20 April 19 19:21 BST (UK)
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Hello Everyone.
I am attempting to research my brother in law's family tree and he has Jewish Ancestry on his mother's side.
His Great Grandparents married in a C of E Church -- although his Gt Grandfather was Jewish, his Gt Grandmother was C of E. at that time.
After the marriage his Gt Grandmother suddenly had a middle name of 'Sarah' which she didn't have before - in addition both Gt Grandparents were buried in Hoop Lane Jewish Cemetery in London, where they then lived. (London -- not the cemetery!)
Does anyone know please whether she would have to convert to Judaism after the marriage? Would this be why another 'given' name appeared? All the children were given names with Jewish connotations (so to speak) -- Abraham, Herman, Solomon etc etc.
I have no experience of researching a Jewish line before, but found a really good website for London Jewish burials called Cemetery Scribes -- which very helpfully gives parent's names! But other than that you don't seem able to search synagogue records except for an exorbitant fee to an American company (as far as I can see). Hence my query re the 'conversion to Judaism'.
Many thanks to anyone who can provide any insight into this.
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Husbands grandfather jewish by birth married a Christian lady but she never converted and the children were not brought up jewish.
However usually jewish faith goes down the female line. having said that his 2nd g grandmother ajewess married a Christian and had 2 marriages a synagogue and a registry office.
I have seen names being changed for marriages between differing faiths.
as I have been researching I have a number of registers for London and if you care to give names I can have a look for you.
Sandie
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Hi Sandiep.
Thank you so much for responding -- as it isn't my own family I will contact you by personal message if that's OK -- probably tomorrow now as I am brain dead! (No change there then I hear you say).
Just let me know if you don't me to do that, otherwise you should receive a personal message from me.
Thank you again.
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happy to have a personal message might not answer till Monday or Tuesday have family coming for Easter Sunday but promise I will reply whether I find anything or not,
sandie
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It may have been that she had an "unsuitable" (non-biblical?) name? Jewish descent is traced via the maternal line - if Mum was Jewish, you are, if Mum wasn't, it's iffy.
If you know the area they lived in, direct contact with the local synagogue may produce records?
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Hi Threlfall Yorkie -- thank you for your reply.
In this case the wife was definitely C of E and the husband was Jewish. After a marriage in her parish in Yorkshire -- C of E Church -- they moved to London where he came from, produced 11 children, all with Jewish names and she suddenly had a middle name of 'Sarah' which she hadn't had at baptism nor at the C of E marriage. (Nor on the pre marriage census records).
I hadn't known that Jewish descent was via the maternal line. How very interesting. This case is definitely the other way round as my brother in law's mother was Jewish -- but his father wasn't - and neither was he.
I have contacted Sandiep by personal message as invited -- in case they can help. I am just really curious -- and as they say 'Every day is a school day'!
I
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- and remember: "There's nowt as odd as families"!
Perhaps if she'd had a very non-O.T. name like .... Psyche, or something equally pagan, that's what I was thinking of, then at that time it may not have seemed as acceptable - and she might merely have adopted a more Jewish first name, to fit in with his family? Not impossible. We can all call ourselves whatever we want, remember! Good luck with your hunt.
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I see what you mean -- didn't really happen a lot back then though -- not like these days when 'anything goes'. Quite honestly she probably had the most common Christian female given name!
I bet you can guess --- but I'm not telling!
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The discussion about given names has reminded me that in my own family tree -- the brother of my Gt Gt Grandfather married a Sharon Clegg. She was born about 1817 in the Accrington area (Oakenshaw).
I was a bit flabbergasted to find a Sharon born in 1817, especially in such a small place. The census enumerators and transcribers had a good time with it!
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After the marriage his Gt Grandmother suddenly had a middle name of 'Sarah' which she didn't have before
For your information, Sarah is the name traditionally taken by female converts to Judaism. It's certainly possible that she converted.
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Bookbox -- thank you SO very much for that information --- again --- how very interesting.
I have never known anything at all about the customs and practices of the Jewish religion - so this is all so useful.
Thank you again.
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Hi
got your message will get back as soon as can meantime https://www.jewishgen.org/
this site might be worth a look It gives quite a bit of information
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Thank you Sandie -- as you say that site for which you provided the link does hold a lot of useful information -- thank you. Unless I'm misunderstanding it though - I cannot search on a name without registering and paying 100 dollars.
Sandie -- please don't bother about this query any more -- I think the bride converted from what I have been told -- and it's not too important to find an actual record. Thank you all for your contributions and help.
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Unless I'm misunderstanding it though - I cannot search on a name without registering and paying 100 dollars.
Once registered with JewishGen, you can access all the data on the site free of charge. The voluntary donation simply allows access to a slightly more sophisticated search interface.
in addition both Gt Grandparents were buried in Hoop Lane Jewish Cemetery in London
You don’t give any dates, but this particular burial ground is shared between the West London (Reform) Synagogue and the Spanish & Portuguese (Sephardi) community. Given the wife’s background, it seems most likely that they belonged to a Reform group, because Liberal and Reform groups tend to have rather more relaxed membership rules than Orthodox synagogues.
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Thank you again Bookbox -- you are a veritable mine of information -- I notice now that if I do register I am likely to receive emails requesting donations. I don't blame them for this at all - an awful lot of hard work has gone into compiling this site.
I am doing this for someone else though so it's a 'one off' family - and I don't want pestering with messages, although I am willing to make a donation commensurate with my use of the site and may well do that just to see if I can obtain a record.
I obtained the burial details from the Cemetery Scribes website -- a brilliant resource for London. I even had a photo of gravestones of other older family members complete with details of the family. I think that's just amazing. Also noticed that people seem to have been buried within 2 days of their actual death - unless that's an error. I assumed it was possibly a custom, much like Islamic speedy burials -- but haven't checked that yet.
The initially mixed religion couple I am talking about in particular, were buried in 1912 and 1920 at Hoop Lane.
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Jewish burial should ideally be within 24 hours of death (but isn’t always).
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I'd forgotten that Sarah is ( often) used for female converts! Thanks for reminding me.
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Within 24 hours of death -- my goodness I wonder how they manage that logistically with everyone who needs to be involved. Amazing.
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Isn't that the same ideal timing as Islamic? I'd always assumed that it was a hygiene - based requirement that developed in hot countries?
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Yes -- I thought it was the hot country reason for Islamic burials.
However I have certainly noticed with this London based Jewish family the burials seem to be 2 days after the actual death on the generations I traced who were buried at the cemeteries shown on Cemetery Scribes.
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Speedy burial is also connected with putting the soul to rest as quickly as possible. It is generally accepted that it is more important for religious reasons to bury quickly than to allow far-flung family members extra time to attend a burial. These days some clergy, especially Liberal and Reform, may grant more leeway, but that is not the norm. (As mentioned above, the Hoop Lane cemetery belongs partly to a Reform synagogue.)
After the burial there is traditionally a 7-day mourning period (shiva), so that family and friends, many of whom will not have been able to attend the burial, can gather together every evening to say prayers, pay their respects and comfort the bereaved.
You will find plenty more information online, but bear in mind that some of it may reflect American practice rather than English.
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You have all been most helpful and informative on this subject - thank you.
I have registered with the Jewish Gen website and made a token donation (20 dollars!) -- I'll see how it goes.
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Thank you for raising this question .my christian great grandmother married a jewish man her first name was given as Miriam at the synagogue wedding ...but all other documents had her given name .
I wonder if she didnt convert but just said she had for the Rabbi in Manchester .her home town was Birkenhead and after marriage she lived in London . I didnt know records of conversions existed.something else to look into
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Pennines,
If she was buried alongside her husband in a Jewish cemetery, she most certainly would have had to convert to Judaism.
Nowadays, some Jewish cemeteries will have an "interfaith" section for non-Jewish spouses, etc., but there are strict rules governing such sections, e.g. there must be a physical barrier between the sections (like a road or a sidewalk), the non-Jewish section will not be consecrated ground, etc.
It would be interesting to learn when she converted and if, following said conversion, she and her husband also had a Jewish marriage ceremony.
As others have pointed out, Jewishness follows through the mother's line, so if she did not convert, her children would not have been considered Jewish. The boys would not have been circumcised by a mohel and would have had to convert if they wanted to have a bar mitzvah (I don't know when the practice of girls having a bat mitzvah started). Sons and daughters would have had to convert if they wanted to be married in a synagogue.
Regards,
Josephine
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Thank you Josephine -- she was buried in a Jewish cemetery. I have been looking on the Jewish Gen site for evidence of a Jewish marriage, but cannot find one.
Everything points to her having done so though with the addition of her middle name Sarah (then from memory - at death - that name came first!)
Brigidmac --- I don't know - but if she married in a Synagogue I would think your ancestor would need evidence of her conversion. From what I have gathered so far the Jewish rules seem quite strict. You may not be able to find a conversion record -- I haven't so far - but good luck.
I have found this topic -- which is a new subject for me -- very interesting indeed.
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Pennines,
I would just add that JewishGen probably doesn't have every record from every synagogue, therefore it's possible that contacting the local synagogues (or whoever holds their archives) might yield some results.
Regards,
Josephine
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True conversion was a long process this link tells you something about it from the Ashkenazi jewish law but I think Sephardic law is very similar
https://www.theus.org.uk/article/conversion-2
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I will certainly look more into the conversion process from the link you have given Sandie.
Josephine -- I do appreciate that Jewish Gen won't have everything -- but it is such an enormous site when you get into it that I am going around in circles a bit -- it's also telling me I can't doan advanced search without paying something like 360 dollars.
I may be misunderstanding it - and will 'attack' it again later. I have found brief transcribed marriage records of this family line in 1800 and 1823 -- so that's good.
(I notice that there has been more correspondence on this topic since I added the word 'Completed' to the title, than there was before!! I am so glad because I have learnt more.)
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I still think that your best bet will be any synagogue close to where they lived. And probably a lot cheaper, too. Use Mr Google and see what you can find, then approach them directly.
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Within 24 hours of death -- my goodness I wonder how they manage that logistically with everyone who needs to be involved. Amazing.
In the late 18th century, burial records for a parish near me give dates of death, and "following day" appears to be the norm. For those who died 20 miles away, 2 days seems standard, even in midwinter.
It seems that setting the soul to rest as soon as possible is commonplace.
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I was thinking more of the officials -- obtaining the death certificate - registering the death - religious officials being available at the Synagogue - grave diggers etc.
Nowadays there is no way I can see that time frame being achieved - although I have wondered what happens with the Muslim burials at my home town cemetery - I hadn't realised before that Jewish burials adhered to the same immediacy.
ThrelfallYorky --- I do agree with what you say, but I don't really like to trouble individual institutions.
(Don't mind troubling Rootschatters though!!)