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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Waterford => Topic started by: yanks on Monday 22 April 19 13:54 BST (UK)

Title: information on the Tithe Applotment books (records)
Post by: yanks on Monday 22 April 19 13:54 BST (UK)
I'm trying to find information on the Tithe Applotment record books (1823 - 1837?). Does anybody know the what the codes on these records stand for / what they man ? I.E. I know it was a tax on the agricultural produce from the land they owned ? Or was it land they rented / leased ? Also, states what type of class the land was ? this tax went to the protestant church and the catholic irish didnot care for/ or want this tax.  After class, it brook down to amount of acres / Roods / purches.
here is a link to the record  https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-9XS8-JG?i=23&wc=M6LC-GT5%3A147766501%2C147905301&cc=1804886
 It's in the townland of Tinalira in Co. Waterford. No Lot # listed on the record, and i guess Pat Wall & James Wall owned ?/ rented ? many acres and bordedred each other?  Any help would be apprciated .....Yanks   
Title: Re: information on the Tithe Applotment books (records)
Post by: hallmark on Monday 22 April 19 14:02 BST (UK)



https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/tithe-applotment-books.html





Title: Re: information on the Tithe Applotment books (records)
Post by: Sinann on Monday 22 April 19 14:53 BST (UK)
They didn't own the land, their Landlord is Mansfield.
Title: Re: information on the Tithe Applotment books (records)
Post by: yanks on Tuesday 23 April 19 13:37 BST (UK)
Thank You Sinnan, Thank You for your reply. I feel foolish, How can I miss that (the landlord). Would you mind a couple of questiins ? If I'm reading this correctly, Pat Wall had over 60 aces of land ?  In the second collumn, to the right of the class, it lists 6 acres for class one, 12 acres of class two etc...am I reading this correctly ? Also, no lot numbers listed ? ( like in Griffith's Val. ).
  Thank you again for your reply.....Yanks   
Title: Re: information on the Tithe Applotment books (records)
Post by: yanks on Tuesday 23 April 19 13:41 BST (UK)
Thank you Hallmark for the attached link, i will have to check it out. I thought some years ago, I read this but didn't see my questions answered...Yanks
Title: Re: information on the Tithe Applotment books (records)
Post by: Sinann on Tuesday 23 April 19 14:31 BST (UK)
Thank You Sinnan, Thank You for your reply. I feel foolish, How can I miss that (the landlord). Would you mind a couple of questiins ? If I'm reading this correctly, Pat Wall had over 60 aces of land ?  In the second collumn, to the right of the class, it lists 6 acres for class one, 12 acres of class two etc...am I reading this correctly ? Also, no lot numbers listed ? ( like in Griffith's Val. ).
  Thank you again for your reply.....Yanks   
Yes I believe you are reading it correctly, Pat has 61 acres made up of 5 grades/classes of land.
The heading on how the land was valued are difficult to read but you can see them more clearly on this page
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-9XS8-6M?i=92&wc=M6LC-GT5%3A147766501%2C147905301&cc=1804886
even clearer on this one
http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/reels/tab//004239504/004239504_00052.pdf
I haven't a clue about them.
Pat has quite a lot of land for the period, 1831, but a lot would depend on the quality of it.
Title: Re: information on the Tithe Applotment books (records)
Post by: aghadowey on Tuesday 23 April 19 15:06 BST (UK)
One correction here-
Quote
this tax went to the protestant church and the catholic irish didnot care for/ or want this tax.

No such thing as 'the Protestant Church.' The Church of Ireland was the Established or State Church and had nothing to do with Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.
Title: Re: information on the Tithe Applotment books (records)
Post by: yanks on Tuesday 23 April 19 16:12 BST (UK)
Thank you for your reply, aghadowey. I didn't mean to make reference to a certain religion, I read this on the Irish Nat'l Archives :  They were compiled between 1823 and 1837 in order to determine the amount which occupiers of agricultural holdings over one acre should pay in tithes to the Church of Ireland (the main Protestant church and the church established by the State until its dis-establishment in 1871).....Thanks again for your reply / information....yanks
Title: Re: information on the Tithe Applotment books (records)
Post by: yanks on Tuesday 23 April 19 16:15 BST (UK)
Thanks again Sinann for your reply and links. Yes, I couldn't believe this Pat Wall had so many acres, but like you said (i thought too) about the quality of the land ....   
Title: Re: information on the Tithe Applotment books (records)
Post by: Maiden Stone on Tuesday 23 April 19 17:05 BST (UK)
Some others on previous and following pages had substantial holdings. They may have been sub-letting?
Title: Re: information on the Tithe Applotment books (records)
Post by: yanks on Tuesday 23 April 19 17:52 BST (UK)
Hi Maiden Stone, ...I guess it's possible they were sub-letting ? Unlike Griffith's Val. ..these Tithe records don't give you a lot numnber. Also, The subletting on Griffith's Val. shows the subletting right next to the person who Is subletting. After the class (of the land) and the amount of acres, I don't undrstand te rest of the value / composition of the land and other notations etc... 
Title: Re: information on the Tithe Applotment books (records)
Post by: hallmark on Tuesday 23 April 19 17:54 BST (UK)




https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/Richard-Griffiths.html




Title: Re: information on the Tithe Applotment books (records)
Post by: Sinann on Tuesday 23 April 19 18:28 BST (UK)
I don't know if it's the site or my computer because this site isn't loading correctly for me.
If it works for you put the parish and the county and it should tell you about farming in the area.
http://townlandvaluationtranslator.weebly.com/
Title: Re: information on the Tithe Applotment books (records)
Post by: hallmark on Tuesday 23 April 19 18:32 BST (UK)



Site is OK.   



Title: Re: information on the Tithe Applotment books (records)
Post by: yanks on Tuesday 23 April 19 19:17 BST (UK)
I am allowed to enter townland / county but get an answer of not secure ?  Thanks anyway Sinann
Title: Re: information on the Tithe Applotment books (records)
Post by: Sinann on Tuesday 23 April 19 20:00 BST (UK)
Parish not townland
Title: Re: information on the Tithe Applotment books (records)
Post by: Sinann on Tuesday 23 April 19 22:31 BST (UK)
On a different computer now and it's still not working.
Title: Re: information on the Tithe Applotment books (records)
Post by: Maiden Stone on Tuesday 23 April 19 22:46 BST (UK)
I entered parish and county but couldn't do anything else except read proceedings of an inquiry about employment. The print was tiny and I couldn't enlarge it.
Title: Re: information on the Tithe Applotment books (records)
Post by: hallmark on Tuesday 23 April 19 23:01 BST (UK)


Yes it is playing up...... it worked earlier, now getting results page with no results on it.
Title: Re: information on the Tithe Applotment books (records)
Post by: Sinann on Tuesday 23 April 19 23:06 BST (UK)
It should look like this.
https://www.irishgenealogynews.com/2016/10/the-new-townland-valuation-translator.html
Title: Re: information on the Tithe Applotment books (records)
Post by: yanks on Wednesday 24 April 19 16:47 BST (UK)
Hi Sinann, thanks for the link for the translator. I clicked on the link, and it brought me to that fasinating article by Irish genealogist John Schnelle (from Boston). It sounded so good (very interesting ) But when I clicked on the link (included in the article ) for the translator itself, it came back "not secure"....what a disappointment........Yanks
Title: Re: information on the Tithe Applotment books (records)
Post by: Sinann on Wednesday 24 April 19 18:08 BST (UK)
It's a shame it's not working, it was quite good.
Title: Re: information on the Tithe Applotment books (records)
Post by: Wexflyer on Thursday 23 May 19 21:45 BST (UK)
I would not assume that there was any link between the land classification system employed by Griffith's Valuation, which was defined, and that used for the tythe valuations, which were not centrally controlled, but performed separately in each civil parish. All I would take away is a feeling for the relative "goodness" of the land.
Title: Re: information on the Tithe Applotment books (records)
Post by: Wexflyer on Thursday 23 May 19 23:34 BST (UK)
One correction here-
Quote
this tax went to the protestant church and the catholic irish didnot care for/ or want this tax.

No such thing as 'the Protestant Church.' The Church of Ireland was the Established or State Church and had nothing to do with Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.

Not so fast!
I don't see anything wrong with what the OP stated. It is consistent with both colloquial usage and the legal position at the time in question. 
First, if we really want to be picky, there was no "Church of Ireland" at that period. The CofI existed pre-1801, and post 1871. But from 1801 to 1871 the established state church was the "United Church of England and Ireland".
More importantly, there was legally only one "church", the established church. Both legally and in colloquial usage, others were either dissenters, or papists, all of whom attended "chapels". That being so, a reference to "Protestant Church" in the 1820s or 1830s must refer to the established state church.