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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ross & Cromarty => Topic started by: jdchisim on Sunday 28 April 19 11:43 BST (UK)
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Does anyone have any information on this battle or the life of Francis Ross (born 1665, Ross-shire) or could point me in the direction of any resources?
There is a likely DNA connection of myself to him but there isn't really any concrete evidence about his life that I can find - aka it's all unsourced.
I've found this:
"Lord Frances Ross was born 1665 in Ross-shire, Scotland. According to family lore and bible records, he was possibly a member of the Scottish Parliament in 1688. The story was handed down that he killed a member of parliament, but story is unsubstantiated. He fought at the Battle of Killiecrankie on July 27, 1689. This battle took place between the Highland Scottish Clan who supported King James VII of Scotland and troops that supported King William of Orange and took place during the first Jacobite uprising. After the battle, Frances emigrated to Northern, Ulster, Ireland and married a woman of noble birth possibly by the name of Kate Ketterow. They had at least four children we know of: James, John, Mary, and Elizabeth. About 1723 or 1724, Frances immigrated with his four children (unknown if his wife came along), to America and probably first landed in Pennsylvania."
"On the side of "Bonnie Dundee," he fought in the battle of Killiecrankie 29 July 1689 and was exiled from Scotland to Ireland to live the remainder of his life.His eldest son James emigrated to the United States in 1724, landing at Port Royal, South Carolina where he married Cathrine MCCOLLOUGH in 1730. Francis ROSS had considerable property, ability, and courage; and he was a leader of his clan until his stand in the insurrection of the Catholics in favor of the Stuart cause in 1689."
""Francis Ross was born in Thagtshire and was said to be a son of the ruling house. When he was about 24 years old, he imigrated to Ireland with a band of Scotch Presbyterians. He married an Irish lady of aristocratic family about 1690."
"James Ross Sr b 1698 son of Francis b 1665 was banished from Scotland
for his part in the Catholic Insurrection in 1689.
He fought as Lieut at Battle ofKillecranke, where King James of Scotland was defeated.
Francis ROSS immediately emigrated to Ireland at age 24. "
There seems to be a lot of contradictions in these accounts. I can't find any records of him being at this battle. Nor can I understand why he was banished from Scotland. Considering all the information here, he was a Presbyterian who fought in a battle of Williamites against the Jacobites, the Jacobites won the battle, then he was banished for taking part. If he was on the Jacobite side I would maybe understand, but if he fought on the Williamite side?
Does anyone have any info on this? Would be appreciated.
Thanks.
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Dundee's campaign was not a Catholic Insurrection, Dundee, a Protestant, was killed at Killiecrankie & his army was defeated later in hand to hand fighting in Dunkeld.
There might be a case in Scotland for claiming that all Catholics were Jacobites, there is none for claiming that all Jacobites were Catholics!
Skoosh.
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Thanks for the reply.
I don't claim to know anything about Scottish history and base it on the information I have copied and my own knowledge of Irish history.
I get the impression from the quotations that I included in my original post that there is some romanticism about what happened.
I am looking for hard and verifiable facts and not folklore. So thank you for clarifying that.
Is there any reading you can recommend on this? I am mostly interested in Francis of course. But information to build up a picture would be useful. I've found especially in Irish history that the stereotypes are generally just that. Seems Scottish history is very much the same.
Thanks.
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Is there any reading you can recommend on this? I am mostly interested in Francis of course. But information to build up a picture would be useful.
This gives facts about the battle and historical context.
Jacobite Rebellions 1689-1746 - The Battle of Killiecrankie 1689 (Battlefields of Britain)
www.battlefieldsofbritain.co.uk/battle_killiecrankie_1689.html
Summary of a magazine article 'The Battle of Killiecrankie' by Ellen Castelow in 'History Magazine'
https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryMagazine/DestinationsUK/The-Battle-of-Killiecrankie
'Soldiers of Killiecrankie' is a website about re-enactments and the battlefield site. Lots of photos of men in historical dress. Link to historical information about the battle is for the 1st website above.
www.soldiersofkilliecrankie.co.uk
There are songs. 'The Bonnets o' Bonnie Dundee', 'The Braes o' Killiecrankie'; several versions of the latter with verses by Robert Burns and James Hogg. Many recordings, some online.
The massacre at Glencoe was part of the aftermath. The Scottish Parliament voted itself out of existence a few years later.
The siege of Derry and the Battle of the Boyne were part of the Jacobite v Williamite campaign in Ireland. It was connected to events in Europe - King Louis XIVth and his many wars. Louis and William of Orange were enemies. Louis had also fallen out with the Pope. It was very complicated.
There are plenty of books &c about the subject. The usurpation of King James by William of Orange was known as 'The Glorious Revolution'.
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I’d go along with your view that some of the information may have been romanticized slightly, and there are a few obvious factual errors.
The King at the time of the Battle of Killiecrankie in 1689 wasn’t just King of Scotland. He was King of Scotland, England & Ireland. And he wasn’t King James. Elizabeth of England had died in 1603 without children or a clear successor, so the English invited King James VI of Scotland to become King of both countries, known as King James I of England and VI of Scotland. So from 1603 the sovereign ruled over the “United Kingdom.” There was no king of Scotland. James I was followed by Charles II, then (after a gap) by James II who abdicated in 1688. At the time of Killiecrankie in 1689, William of Orange was King (jointly with his wife Mary, James II daughter).
One of the quotes has Frances fighting on the Jacobite side, the other on the Williamite. Obviously both can’t be correct. If he was Presbyterian then in my opinion he was unlikely to have been on the Jacobite side since they wished to restore the exiled Catholic King whose broad aim was to suppress that denomination.
Though the Jacobites won the battle of Killiecrankie, they didn’t win the war. Indeed the battle was their last success before being finally defeated at the Battle of the Boyne in 1690. So as you say, if Frances fought on the Williamite side, he was unlikely to have been banished. If he left Scotland it was probably because he chose to do so.
Throughout the 1600s huge numbers of Scots moved to live in Ireland. Initially as part of the Plantation of Ireland but in the 1690s there was a big surge due to famine, rising rents and lack of employment in Scotland. During the whole of the 1600s at least 100,000 Scots settled in Ireland, representing something like 10% of the entire Scottish population. The majority settled in Ulster. By the early 1700s, many Scots in Ulster were again dis-satisfied. There were a number of reasons. The main ones were an inability to buy their land from landlords who wouldn’t sell, rising rents, poor harvests due to repeated bad weather, weak prices for cotton and other woven products, plus some restrictions on Presbyterians ability to hold government positions. So many of them, mostly Presbyerians, moved again to North America. Today they are known in North America as Scotch-Irish, and in Ireland as Ulster-Scots. Something like 200,000 Ulster Scots moved to North America throughout the 1700s. There’s a bit of background on this site:
https://www.ancestryireland.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/The_1718_Migration.pdf
Sounds to me as though your ancestor went to Ireland in the 1690s as part of the big surge in Scots migration there at that time.
“Francis Ross was born in Thagtshire.” You’ll not be too surprised to hear there is no county of that name, or anything like it.
If Frances was genuinely a “Lord” then his pedigree should be well documented, in Burke’s Peerage or Debrett.
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Thanks for all the replies.
I only copied over some of the quotes so there wasn't overlap.
It isn't clear if he was a Presbyterian or not. Though searching about Clan Ross seems to indicate that they weren't particularly pro-Jacobite. Given the response previously from Skoosh, Bonnie Dundee was a Protestant and led the Jacobite armies so there is potential that he still could have fought with them.
If he fought on Jacobite side I could see that he was banished. Though on the Williamite I agree, I couldn't see a reason why. A lot of the sources do state that he was born in Ross-shire and that he banished or exiled from Scotland. It isn't clear what side he fought on. I was hoping that more information was available on that as he seems to be a prominent person of that name. Though, i do wonder where all this information has came from.
I don't know much about highlander migration from Scotland, especially to Ireland, apart from the MacDonnells in the north of Antrim. Some of the sources for Francis indicate that he married a Irish noble lady when he was forced into Ireland and there is a paper trail to indicate him having children there so I wouldn't doubt that. Most of the sources I see seem to indicate more lowlanders moving to Ulster. Though, I have seen Highlanders within the later surviving Irish censuses.
Even though there is some romanticism, I would at least hope that there was some factual basis to some of the things that are noted about him. I think it's very dishonest to make up a whole biography for some deceased person.
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There was no union between the two kingdoms until 1707 despite James VI's wishes to the contrary. Charles I was crowned King of Scots in Edinburgh & Charles II was crowned King of Scots long before he was King of England. In 1689 the Convention met in Edinburgh to decide the succession to the Scottish crown & support was fairly evenly divided. Dundee's failed rising saw the Scottish crown offered that year to Wlliam II & Mary who asked that the crown be sent to London, which was refused so neither they nor James VII were actually crowned, Queen Anne ditto. The Scots Parliament reserved the right to refuse the Hanoverian succession & choose their own successor to Anne, a thing which was only sorted out in the details of the Union treaty.
Resistance to both George I'st & George II'nd continued in the risings of 1715, 1719 & 1745 plus a threatened failed French landing with Jacobite support in 1759 The matter was only finally settled by the death of the exiled Charles Stuart.
Skoosh.
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A possible explanation for contradictions in the various pieces of information about Francis Ross is that there was more than one Francis Ross born around the same time in the same county and who both went to Ireland and/or America. As Elwyn pointed out, a huge number of Scots moved to Ireland in 17th century - estimated at 10%, so there may have been several people of a similar age with same name. Add to that the paucity of written records from that time in both countries.
Did some of the information come from online family trees? I looked at these ones:
1. Francis Ross 1665-1750 Geni family tree.
B. 1665 Ross-shire. Member of Sc. Parliament. Fought at Battle of Killiecrankie. Went to Ulster. Married Kate Ketterow. Emigrated to America around 1723/4. Death after 1750 Virginia. Source seems to be a book 'The Descendants of Lord Francis Ross' by Charles Brasheur (2011).
2. Francis Ross 1665-1720 WikiTree
B. 1665 Ross & Cromarty, Scotland. Died 1720 Ireland.
'Francis Ross was born in Thagtshire and said to be a son of the ruling house. When he was about 24 he emigrated to Ireland with a band of Sc. Presbyterians. He married an Irish lady of aristocratic family about 1690.'
Son James born 1698. Immigrated to America with a band of Scotch and Irish gentlemen. Landed at Port Royal, S. Carolina. Married Catherine McCullough 1730.
There are links to 2 posts on Genealogy.com. The second post is headed 'Two James Rosses, Dickson Co. In. ca.1838.
3. Francis Ross b. 1665 Ancestry family tree.
Son James b. 1711.
Info from family trees need to be taken with salt. Lots of threads on RC about their inaccuracies.
I've never heard of 'Thagtshire' either.
If Francis was a member of the Scottish Parliament, one would expect there to be a record.
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i just learned he is my 8th great grandfather :)
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I am a McCord family historian searching for clarification and support for family tradition that holds a similar contradiction. Our family, known to be Presbyterian after emigration, is said to have been part of the Battle of Killiekrankie as part of the Jacobite support. Therein lies the question about a Presbyterian supporting a Catholic uprising. I am most interested to know if you have garnered any information to support this apparent contradiction. I read Skoosh reply and would like to dig deeper into the history of Presbyterians fighting for an asserted Catholic cause. Suffice it to say, it expect there is more to the story than what lies of the surface. Thank you for entertaining my inquiry.
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Welcome to RootsChat.
As the earlier reply by Skoosh explained, it was not a Catholic uprising for a Catholic cause. It's far more complex.
This article in Encyclopaedia Britannica explains the context. "The Revolution of 1688"
https://www.britannica.com/place/United-Kingdom/The-Revolution-of-1688#483189
The struggle for the crowns of England, Ireland and Scotland between King James and his son-in-law, Prince William of Orange, was a small part of a major war between European rulers which eventually spread to overseas colonies in the Americas, India and Africa. King Louis of France, whose ally was King James, was on one side. Practically everyone else who mattered was on the other side, opposing the expansionist ambitions of King Louis. Opposing rulers included Emperor Leopold (Catholic), King of Spain (Catholic), the Pope (Catholic, obviously), King of Sweden and Stadtholder William of Orange.
The League of Augsburg also known as The Grand Alliance was formed in 1686 by Emperor Leopold and kings of Spain, Sweden + others. England joined after William became king. The War of the Grand Alliance (aka War of the League of Augsburg) was fought 1689-97. William commanded the Alliance armies at some major battles on the European Continent.
Peace was short-lived. The War of Spanish Succession was a continuation of the struggle for power in Europe between the Bourbon (French kings) and the Hapsburg dynasties.
An article from an Irish viewpoint about papal contribution: "Why did Pope Innocent XI support the Orange?" by Joe McVeigh, 11th July 2017
www.judecollins.com/2017/07/pope-innocent-xi-support-orange-joe-mcveigh/
Apparently there was a painting of Pope Innocent blessing King William's army. It used to hang in Stormont (the seat of N.I. Parliament, now N.I. Assembly) until someone objected and vandalised it.
History was never simple.
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I am a McCord family historian searching for clarification and support for family tradition that holds a similar contradiction. Our family, known to be Presbyterian after emigration, is said to have been part of the Battle of Killiekrankie as part of the Jacobite support. Therein lies the question about a Presbyterian supporting a Catholic uprising. I am most interested to know if you have garnered any information to support this apparent contradiction. I read Skoosh reply and would like to dig deeper into the history of Presbyterians fighting for an asserted Catholic cause. Suffice it to say, it expect there is more to the story than what lies of the surface. Thank you for entertaining my inquiry.
In Yorkshire, England in the 17th Century and at Selby, Yorkshire by 1690 there was already a Presbyterian Chapel and the earliest surviving Baptism Register in 1797 says the chapel was English Presbyterian. English Presbyterianism was supported in Yorkshire by Lady Hewley (Sarah) who were Protestant Dissenters 17th Cent.
Inconsistencies and seeming contradictions often require detailed searching in archives, with the hope of finding a document mentioning an ancestor inside, only to find that type of document does not, or may have not have survived.
Mark
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The Clan Ross were generally Presbyterians but in the '45 their chief, Ross of Pitcalnie, raised men for the prince. "Jumping the dyke!" was not uncommon amongst the chiefs, Cromartie & particularly, Lord Lovat amongst them. He was an Episcopalian, Presbyterian & a Catholic by turn! The greatest Lord Lovat that ever was, as he modestly maintained! He was probably right ;D
https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/person/mp02804/simon-fraser-11th-lord-lovat/
Hereditary animosities & family ties were more important than religion in Highland politics. Lovat's elder brother died of wounds received at Killiecrankie so young Simon rose to prominence, his principal enemies were the expansionist Mackenzie's & the Murray's of Atholl who had a forfeited Jacobite duke at their head & his replacement Hanoverian brother, also a duke. Most of these gentlemen held government appointments & kept one eye open for the main chance. George II was godfather to Lovat's son & a dukedom would probably have bought his loyalty, he was desperate to be a duke. His ally through thick & thin, against the Murray's was MacLeod of Macleod & Dunvegan his favoured bolt-hole when things got too hot. The duke of Argyll was also a good mate! He hated the Murray's as much as Simon.
A fascinating character, he had his portrait painted by Hogarth at St Albans, en-route to his trial & he went to the block with a smile on his face when several of the packed-in spectators were killed when their seating collapsed!
The enthusiastic Skye clansmen were under the impression that they were off to join the Jacobites when summoned by MacLeod & Macdonald of Sleat, the opposite proved the case when this duo finally made up their minds which way to jump. Their co-religionists the MacLeod's of Raasay joined the rebellion & paid the price, & retribution when it came, was exacted by the Skye MacLeod's who left slim pickings for the redcoats!
This Thagt-shire business could be Cromarty-shire which was only joined to Ross-shire in modern times.
Skoosh.