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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: lauralem on Sunday 28 April 19 22:08 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I have a GG grandmother with quite a life story, but I can't piece together her early years to a satisfactory degree. Bare with me, it's a long one...
Known to the family as Florence Louise Adams, she was born in 1871. 1901 census says she came from Chelsea, London; but the family knew her to come from Devizes, Wiltshire.
According to her wedding cert, her father was William Adams, a printer.
I've found a birth certificate for a Florence Louise Adams born 1871 in Camden, father is William Adams & Mother Kate Adams (nee Richards). So far so good... except I can't find a wedding cert for Kate & William...
I've then found a Florence Adams living in Melksham, Wiltshire in 1881 census (only a few miles from Devizes), who comes from London. She's living with a Richards family... again, seems like the shoe is beginning to fit. Except this Richards family don't have a daughter called 'Kate', nor sister nor niece (Florence is listed as the niece of the head of the family). There is, however, a couple of Janes in the family born around the right time as Florence's mum; and there happened to be a Jane Richards, from Melksham, working/living in Chelsea (where Florence's 1901 census says she was born) in 1871 - a few months before Florence was born.
So, my theory is that 'Kate' is actually the Jane that was living in Chelsea, and she was never actually married to William, but lied - and because she was lying, she reg'd the birth on the opposite side of town so she wouldn't get caught out; before shipping Florence off to the countryside to get raised by the extended family.
Am I overlooking something? Any other ideas on how to piece this info together? Can anyone find the elusive marriage certificate for Kate Richards & William Adams that beguiles me???
And THANKS if you made it this far!
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Just to add there's a baptism for her in Camden 23 Jul 1871
Father William John a stationer
Mother Kate
Add 31 Bayham Place
Is there a William John Adams at that address in the 1871 census perhaps.
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There’s also a baptism for Florence Louise Adams born 9 June 1871.
Baptised 23 July 1871, Camden Town (All Saints’j.
Parents: William John Adams (stationer) and Kate, of 31 Bayham Place.
Cross-posted!
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1871 census: RG10/230/42/6
36 Camden Rd, Camden Town
William J Adams Head Mar 23 Heraldic stamper Westminster
Kate do Wife Mar 22 Melksham Wiltshire
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Except this Richards family don't have a daughter called 'Kate', nor sister nor niece (Florence is listed as the niece of the head of the family).
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They do actually but she is only 13 in the 1881 census.
Henry Richards 59
Ester Richards 57
Ellen Richards 22
Henry Richards 17
Kate Richards 13
Florence Adams 10 niece.
I wonder if an older sister may have 'borrowed' the younger sister's name?
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Possible death for William John Adams aged 25, Dec qtr 1872 Westminster.
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Deleted, no longer relevant
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Possible death for William John Adams aged 25, Dec qtr 1872 Westminster.
The deceased was of 339 Oxford St; buried at Brompton Cemetery on 19 October 1872.
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Not a marriage to jane or kate but there is a William John Adams marriage 5 Oct 1872 and he is a printer.
Of full age and a widower.
Added - sorry had missed the 1871 census find.
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1871 census: RG10/230/42/6
36 Camden Rd, Camden Town
William J Adams Head Mar 23 Heraldic stamper Westminster
Kate do Wife Mar 22 Melksham Wiltshire
Thank you so much for this, I've never come across it. But when I search for the reference number on ancestry it doesn't come up with anything. Is there another way to view it?
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You could just search for Kate Adams b abt 1849 Melksham, living in Camden Town.
But she should come up in your list of results if you enter the reference details correctly in the 1871 England census search form:
Piece: 230
Folio: 42
Page: 6
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What happened to your Florence Louise Adams in later life? Did she survive to appear in the 1939 Register, and if so does it confirm that her birthdate was 9 June 1871?
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You could just search for Kate Adams b abt 1849 Melksham, living in Camden Town.
But she should come up in your list of results if you enter the reference details correctly in the 1871 England census search form:
Piece: 230
Folio: 42
Page: 6
Found it! Thanks so much. Next conundrum: what occupation is a 'Heraldic Stamper'?!
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What happened to your Florence Louise Adams in later life? Did she survive to appear in the 1939 Register, and if so does it confirm that her birthdate was 9 June 1871?
She married a George Staniforth in Portsmouth and then they moved to Hull. She died in 1942, but I can't find her in the 1939 Register.
But pretty confident that June 1971 in Camden is the right Florence. There were only a handful of Florence L Adams born around that time and she's the only one with a Wiltshire connection, and my grandmother and her sister both told me that's where their gran came from. I just wasn't convinced I'd pieced together her early years properly - and that's because I hadn't!
Thanks so much for everyone's help! I've spent months on this and you've cleared it up for me in less than 24 hours!
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Except this Richards family don't have a daughter called 'Kate', nor sister nor niece (Florence is listed as the niece of the head of the family).
'
They do actually but she is only 13 in the 1881 census.
Henry Richards 59
Ester Richards 57
Ellen Richards 22
Henry Richards 17
Kate Richards 13
Florence Adams 10 niece.
I wonder if an older sister may have 'borrowed' the younger sister's name?
There was a theory that another descendent had that 'Kate' was actually Jane - and there are two Janes in the Richards family of Melksham that were cousins and born a couple of years apart, so would make sense if one of them had a nickname so as to avoid confusion. So I'm starting to think that the Jane living in Chelsea in the 1871 census that I originally thought was Florence's mum was actually her mum's cousin.
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She is in the 1939. Birth date is one week earlier than the baptism stated, so someone goofed up on the baptism or whoever supplied her birth date for the '39.
Her daughter (?) is listed as the 9th, maybe they mixed them up and she should be the 2nd.
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She is in the 1939. Birth date is one week earlier than the baptism stated, so someone goofed up on the baptism or whoever supplied her birth date for the '39.
Her daughter (?) is listed as the 9th, maybe they mixed them up and she should be the 2nd.
How did you find her? I'm using Ancestry and if I search for 'Florence Staniforth' and her birth year I get nothing! (I find the Ancestry search system pretty unreliable, to be honest).
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She is in the 1939. Birth date is one week earlier than the baptism stated, so someone goofed up on the baptism or whoever supplied her birth date for the '39.
Her daughter (?) is listed as the 9th, maybe they mixed them up and she should be the 2nd.
Also - 2nd June is the date on her birth cert. And her birth was registered 3 weeks before she was baptised, so think the baptism record is wrong.
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How did you find her? I'm using Ancestry and if I search for 'Florence Staniforth' and her birth year I get nothing! (I find the Ancestry search system pretty unreliable, to be honest).
Try just putting Florence L Staniforth and once you get results, have it only show Censuses from 1930's.
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Ignore that last post. Anc isn't showing it, but FindMyPast is....
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Anc has her under surname STAMFORTH.
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Anc has her under surname STAMFORTH.
You're a legend! Thanks.
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Irrelevant, sidetrack query: Please, what's an "Heraldic Stamper"?
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A Stationer who embossed stationery witn family Crest.....
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Thank you. I never knew that. (Filed)
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There was a theory that another descendent had that 'Kate' was actually Jane - and there are two Janes in the Richards family of Melksham that were cousins and born a couple of years apart, so would make sense if one of them had a nickname so as to avoid confusion. So I'm starting to think that the Jane living in Chelsea in the 1871 census that I originally thought was Florence's mum was actually her mum's cousin.
As Florence is the niece of Henry Richards, do you know his brother/s and families?
There is a marriage that might be worth looking at.
Free BMD
September 1870 London City 1c pg 159
John Adams and Jane Richards
It seems bizarre though with John being a middle name and Jane using Kate :-\
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The couple who married in 1870 may be the John Adams and Jane (both Welsh-born) who are lodging in Westminster in 1871 with one-month old daughter Lizzey M (Lizzey Margaret Adams birth reg with mmn Richards, St Geo Han Sq Jun qtr 1871).
1871: RG10/124/46/35
They have moved back to Wales by 1881.
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Oh thanks avm. I was just hoping that it was our couple.
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I do think it would be helpful if we could fill in the huge gap in Florence's early life. So far we have:
1871: Born & baptised in Camden Town.
1896: Married George Staniforth in Portsea.
Where was she in 1881/1891? Had William died in 1872, as we think? Where was her mother?
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In 1881 she was with the relatives in Wiltshire.reply #4
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In 1881 she was with the relatives in Wiltshire.reply #4
Oops. So she is!
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it Is difficult as we are assuming that Kate Richards Adams is Jane Richards :-\
Marriage
1875 Melksham Austin Meldon and Jane Richards
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I thought the Jane=Kate theory had been based on the fact that Jane had been found in London in 1871 and until this thread Kate had not, so it was thought/hoped they might be one and the same?
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I thought the Jane=Kate theory had been based on the fact that Jane had been found in London in 1871 and until this thread Kate had not, so it was thought/hoped they might be one and the same?
On the other hand, a Jane Adams marries John McAuley, Dec qtr 1873 Medway, and turns up in subsequent Kent censuses with him showing a birthplace of Melksham c1847-9, and a clutch of children with mmn Richards.
E.g. Mary Alice McCauley, mmn Richards, Sep qtr 1874 Medway.
So I take it all back :). Looks entirely possible that Kate was really the daugher Jane belonging to that Melksham family, and Florence was their granddaughter rather than their niece.
No doubt the 1873 marriage certificate would be illuminating as to who her father was.
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Super find :)
I can’t see them in 1881 can you?
1891 662/61
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1881: RG11/890/71/31 :)
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I hardly dare mention it, but the daughter born Dec qtr 1847 Melksham to Henry Richards and Hester née Cully was registered not as Kate, or Jane, but Sarah ???
Anyway they seem to have renamed her as by 1851 they have a Jane, 3, and a Mary, 1 (reg as Mary Ann, Mar qtr 1850 Melksham).
HO107/1840/48/11.
They did go on to have a Sarah Ann, Jun qtr 1853.
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Thanks - found them now :)
There is:
Jane baptised 26th May 1850 - parents Thomas and Mary
Jane baptised 26th October 1851 parents Henry and Hester
The Macauleys have children both Mary and Esther - and Jane and Kate :)
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I thought the Jane=Kate theory had been based on the fact that Jane had been found in London in 1871 and until this thread Kate had not, so it was thought/hoped they might be one and the same?
On the other hand, a Jane Adams marries John McAuley, Dec qtr 1873 Medway, and turns up in subsequent Kent censuses with him showing a birthplace of Melksham c1847-9, and a clutch of children with mmn Richards.
E.g. Mary Alice McCauley, mmn Richards, Sep qtr 1874 Medway.
So I take it all back :). Looks entirely possible that Kate was really the daugher Jane belonging to that Melksham family, and Florence was their granddaughter rather than their niece.
No doubt the 1873 marriage certificate would be illuminating as to who her father was.
Mega sleuth! I was holding some info back because I didn't want to overcomplicate things, but I'll lay all my cards on the table as you're catching up to me.
I've spoken to another descendent of Jane/Kate, and she believes after William died Jane remarried the McCauley chap and moved to Kent (apparently she's listed as a widow on the marriage cert), and Florence was sent to Melksham. I didn't buy it, because I couldn't find evidence that Kate & William were ever together; but as you've all debunked that, the other descendent could be right.
With regards to the Janes: there is a Thomas Richards (older brother of Henry) who also has a daughter called Jane, born within a couple of years of Henry's Jane. At the moment, I believe Thomas is Florence's grandad... but I'm ready to be proved wrong again!
Just to complicate things even more, though, I recently discovered there were TWO Richards families in Melksham, and both had sons called Henry... so I think I need to go through all those parish records with a fine tooth comb to confirm that Thomas is the brother of the Henry that was Florence's uncle.
(And for anyone who's interested, I've pieced together Florence's life from 1881 onwards: 1881, living with the Richards in Melksham; 1891, working at Wiltshire Lunatic Asylum; 1892, gets engaged to another colleague at the Lunatic asylum, but then calls it off on her Uncle Henry's advice, so the jilted lover goes and murders her uncle in revenge(!); moves to Portsmouth and works as a barmaid; meets George Staniforth who is in the Royal Marines and they marry; 1899, family moves to Hull.)
I really appreciate all the help you're all offering me!
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Sons called Henry & both born in the same year, I seem to recall
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Just to say it would have helped to have the McCauley information even if you were doubtful.
It would have saved a lot of searching.
If you purchase the marriage certificate, you will have the right parent hopefully.
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Uncle Henry who was murdered in 1892 is only young - newspaper snippet has him 32yrs but death registers 28yrs.
It looks as though he is the son of Henry and Hester.
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OK so Jane was a widow on the 1873 marriage certificate - but has the other researcher told you what it says about her father?
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Presumably Florence is actually either a granddaughter or great-niece of Henry & Hester, despite appearances?
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Just to say it would have helped to have the McCauley information even if you were doubtful.
It would have saved a lot of searching.
If you purchase the marriage certificate, you will have the right parent hopefully.
Sorry, I didn't mean to waste your time. The information just seemed completely irrelevant when I made my original post and I didn't anticipate everyone going above and beyond to help me with this.
And great spot with Uncle Henry. I completely missed that.
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OK so Jane was a widow on the 1873 marriage certificate - but has the other researcher told you what it says about her father?
I've sent the other researcher a message asking just this. Hopefully she responds soon.
But I think it must be Henry, as that's who she's listed as Jane's father on her family tree on ancestry (and she has definitely seen the certificate).
I just don't get why Henry Sr would list her as his niece on the 1881 census though, and not his granddaughter?
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I had looked at a few trees for both Janes but none show the marriage details just the year and spouse.
It might be that daughter Ellen gave the information for the census and so ‘niece’would be proper.
You are going to need confirmation of parent/grandparent to be sure.
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I just read through the long newspaper account of the trial, and the defendant had written Florence a letter, in which he referenced a Harry, and her "Dad". Although the letter wasn't included in the article, the lawyers did ask her for clarification. She stated that Harry was her Uncle Henry, and "Dad" was her grandfather, as she was raised by her grandparents.
As a sidenote, the defendant also murdered one of the Constables trying to arrest him, and had wrongly anticipated that Florence would be with Henry, as he planned on killing both Florence and Henry.
Another article mentioned that first banns had been read (for Florence and Louis Hamilton), but as banns don't include the father's name, I guess that doesn't help.
(Edit: in checking for banns, the first two banns were read; the third was "withdrawn on account of murder")
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I have the banns with Louis Hamilton/Gurd and I read a few articles about the murder, but didn't come across one that said she was raised by her grandparents - so thanks for that piece of the puzzle!
So the story seems to be that Florence was the daughter of Jane/Kate Richards & William Adams, born in London. William died when she was an infant and she was subsequently raised by her grandparents in Melksham, after her mother remarried John McAuley and moved to Kent. Her estranged fiancé then killed her uncle (mother's younger brother) and she then moved to Portsmouth and met/married George Staniforth.
(On a side note: her marriage certificate to George lists William as her father, which I never doubted, I just wasn't sure that he and Jane/Kate were actually ever married - but census 1871 corrects that assumption).
THANK YOU SO MUCH EVERYONE!
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The 1871 census tells you that William and Jane/Kate presented themselves as married, but there is currently no evidence of a marriage for them.
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And it could have all been sorted so much earlier if you had posted the Mccauley marriage and newspaper information, Laura.
A lesson to be learned ;)