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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: willingtonguy on Monday 29 April 19 11:15 BST (UK)

Title: Finding date of birth for war records
Post by: willingtonguy on Monday 29 April 19 11:15 BST (UK)

Hi, I believe that I have located someone in both forces-war-records website and commonwealth war graves commission site. But neither site lists the birth date of the person I am researching - and neither does the photo of the grave (in Ramleh, Egypt). Without the birthdate, or some other corroborating information such as name of parent, I can't be sure that I have the correct person. Can anyone advise what next to do ?

Grateful thanks

Tony

Title: Re: Finding date of birth for war records
Post by: Milliepede on Monday 29 April 19 11:17 BST (UK)

Hi

Do you have an age for the person and a full name? 

How about looking for the person on family trees, that might corroborate what you have found  :)

Title: Re: Finding date of birth for war records
Post by: willingtonguy on Monday 29 April 19 22:05 BST (UK)

Thanks. Here's my siftuation. I am investigating a family with connections to my village - not my own. Winifred Joyce Forder  was born 28 July 1918, to a family with military connections. There is no record of her death in UK, or any other activity related to her, with the possible exception of a 1939 Register entry, and no other Winifred Joyce Forders in UK at all. But a Joyce Winifred Forder died on 25 Nov 1944 while with the WAAF working in accounts at El Gedida. Not, apparently, through enemy action and presumably therefore by illhealth. She is buried at Ramleh War Cemetary, Egypt. Three brothers also served in the forces.

Now there is no record of any Joyce Winifred Forder being born or existing in UK. So I have to wonder whether Winifred Joyce's names got transposed, either by her, or the enlisting officer, and once got wrong, would be stuck and near impossible to change.

So the only proof that Joyce Winifred is the same woman as Winifred Joyce would be a matching birth date. But there is no birth date in the War Graves records, or on the grave itself. No newspaper report or obit at the time.  So far I only have a hunch to go on!

I'm not aware of anyone publishing a family tree that would give a clue.

Thanks and best wishes

Title: Re: Finding date of birth for war records
Post by: Jool on Tuesday 30 April 19 00:04 BST (UK)

Hi Tony,

It's not unusual for people to swap their names around.  If I have followed the correct family, it seems Winifred Joyce's sister swapped her names around.  It doesn't prove anything but maybe it was common in their family.  It may give you more confidence that you have found the correct person.

Birth
Elizabeth A Forder (mmn Tait)
Dec Q 1912 Guildford 2a 196

Marriage
Elizabeth A Forder
David B L Hibbert
March Q 1949 Kensington 5c 2155

Their marriage announcement refers to her as Andrea, not Elizabeth - Kensington Post 04 February 1949.

Title: Re: Finding date of birth for war records
Post by: willingtonguy on Tuesday 30 April 19 00:17 BST (UK)

Thanks for posting that wedding announcement. Yes, that's the same family, and the older sister of Winifred Joyce. There were, amazingly three sets of twins born after her! One brother was to die at Anzio in 1944. Another survived to old age, having been in the Royal Artillery. And a third who was in the RAF sadly died in flying accident in 1948.

And also, there is a Brit WAAF still living in Canada, hale and hearty, who worked with Winifred Joyce Forder in the accounts department in the war and remembers her.

Title: Re: Finding date of birth for war records
Post by: Jool on Tuesday 30 April 19 00:26 BST (UK)

There's a pattern forming here, her brother Frank C T Forder also appears to have used his middle name (Carol) on his marriage announcement too.

Marriages
Frank C T Forder
Eileen Carroll
Sept Q 1939 London C

Title: Re: Finding date of birth for war records
Post by: barryd on Tuesday 30 April 19 03:58 BST (UK)

"Now there is no record of any Joyce Winifred Forder being born or existing in UK."

Free BMD Joyce W. Forder registered June Qtr. 1922,  Hackney,  mothers married  name Payne.

Title: Re: Finding date of birth for war records
Post by: willingtonguy on Tuesday 30 April 19 09:43 BST (UK)

Thanks Jool, certainly a trend there!

And thanks Barry, I couldn't find that one, so possibly have been on the wrong track. But only a birth date will be the final answer!

Very grateful for you taking the time to look these things up.

Title: Re: Finding date of birth for war records
Post by: medpat on Tuesday 30 April 19 11:48 BST (UK)

Name:   Winifred J Forder

Jul-Aug-Sep in Skipton Yorkshire West Riding
Mother's Maiden Name:   Tait

Twin Jean W A

the same mother as

Frances C A  - 1914
Frank C T  -  1914
Elizabeth  A  - 1912
Margaret K M  -  1911
Robert A D  -  1925
Alfred S D  -  1919
Kenneth A D -  1919

Title: Re: Finding date of birth for war records
Post by: medpat on Tuesday 30 April 19 12:00 BST (UK)

Her twin was Jean Winifred Ann according to 2 Ancestry trees. Both haven't found Winifred but have the rest of the family. It looks like the women may have been known as Jean and Joyce. Jean died
Canada.

Found one with Winifred on, no date of death, states her father was Reverend Frank George Forder died 1930

Title: Re: Finding date of birth for war records
Post by: medpat on Tuesday 30 April 19 12:18 BST (UK)

Joyce W's WAAF no.  482150 Rank   ACW1 With service number you can get her docs. from MOD but will cost you £30.00 to do so.

Title: Re: Finding date of birth for war records
Post by: willingtonguy on Tuesday 30 April 19 20:09 BST (UK)

Thanks Medpat. How do you manage to find additional offspring, only based on a mother's name?

Title: Re: Finding date of birth for war records
Post by: medpat on Tuesday 30 April 19 20:31 BST (UK)

All births post 1911 so on Ancestry I hit search, put only their surname in and mother's surname in section where it has space for mother's name and all came up. Easy when you know how but I've been doing this a long time and we all make mistakes or are unable to find something and someone knows what to do and you learn from it all.

If you register to GRO for free you can do a search for MMN from 1837 - 1918

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp

Title: Re: Finding date of birth for war records
Post by: willingtonguy on Tuesday 30 April 19 22:21 BST (UK)

Mega thanks for both those tips. I'm using FindmyPast, not Ancestry, but see I can do the same using the maiden name as keyword.

And the GRO thing is great, that will be very helpful too.

Title: Re: Finding date of birth for war records
Post by: willingtonguy on Tuesday 30 April 19 22:32 BST (UK)

Thanks again Medpat. So Jean died in Canada. Is that information in Ancestry, or elsewhere?

Title: Re: Finding date of birth for war records
Post by: Jool on Wednesday 01 May 19 00:11 BST (UK)

Quote from: willingtonguy on Tuesday 30 April 19 22:32 BST (UK)

Thanks again Medpat. So Jean died in Canada. Is that information in Ancestry, or elsewhere?

There is a photo of Jean and some details of her life in Canada here:

http://www.muskokaartsandcrafts.com/Lifetime_Members/lifetime-members.htm

Title: Re: Finding date of birth for war records
Post by: willingtonguy on Wednesday 01 May 19 15:22 BST (UK)

Thanks so much. Lovely to see the photo and the biographical details.

Best wishes

Tony