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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: GD40 on Monday 29 April 19 16:56 BST (UK)

Title: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: GD40 on Monday 29 April 19 16:56 BST (UK)
With your help, I have managed to trace my lineage back to Richard de la Diakne, born in 1212. He had a son, John 2nd Baldwin Dakin Dakeyne born apparently in 1388.
He had a son, Sir Thomas Dakin born in 1410, who married Margaret Worthington, also born 1n 1410.
If anybody can expand on this, I would be most grateful.
I am also trying to find out more about Alicia de la Pole born in 1480 to John de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk and Jane Okover.
You've always managed to unearth information that I've struggled with, so I live in hope.
Cheers,
Geoff Deakin.
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: cristeen on Monday 29 April 19 17:10 BST (UK)
With your help, I have managed to trace my lineage back to Richard de la Diakne, born in 1212. He had a son, John 2nd Baldwin Dakin Dakeyne born apparently in 1388.

I would be very surprised if anyone born in 1212 could father a child born in 1388, it's a gap of 176 years!
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: Gadget on Monday 29 April 19 17:25 BST (UK)
What sources did you use?

Gadget
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: cristeen on Monday 29 April 19 17:39 BST (UK)
What sources did you use?

Gadget
Not a calculator!
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: GD40 on Monday 29 April 19 17:43 BST (UK)
No... not a calculator!

I am using Ancestry, but couldn't bridge the age gap!
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: cristeen on Monday 29 April 19 17:53 BST (UK)
Ancestry can be a complete quagmire of repeatedly copied and unchecked sources. If I were you I'd start with the earliest family or person for which you can real evidence and records, research them as thoroughly as possible before trying to go back a generation.
Getting back to the 11th or 12th century is no use if it's fiction. Most of the lines I researched I have got back to the mid 1700s with some certainty using a combination of parish records and wills, some lines another generation further back.
It can be just as interesting and rewarding to build a picture of your ancestors using as many sources as possible, maps, old books, newspaper articles etc and really get a feel for them, as it is to get back to William the Conqueror etc.
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: Gadget on Monday 29 April 19 18:26 BST (UK)
As cristeen has said, Ancestry trees are often fictions.

As an example, I've just put Alicia de la Pole, 1480, into their search and find that her parents are recorded in one tree as George Pole and Margaret, Duchess of York.!!!

You need to work back from ancestors that you can source via parish records, wills, various documents, etc. and definitely not Ancestry trees.  After 20-30 years of research, I have a few lines that go back to medieval times and some that barely creep into the 18th century. My tree (s) are very wide though, with descendants of ancestors's kin, etc. Also, the wealth of other information that cristeen has mentioned.

Gadget
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: Vance Mead on Monday 29 April 19 18:42 BST (UK)
You can't rely on Ancestry.

For Medieval sources available online, the best place to start is here:

http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/index.html

He has sources for many medieval records.
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: Maiden Stone on Monday 29 April 19 19:26 BST (UK)
I am also trying to find out more about Alicia de la Pole born in 1480 to John de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk and Jane Okover.

Was this John de la Pole, 2nd Duke of Suffolk, 1442-1492?  Did he marry Jane Okover ?
He married Elizabeth Plantagenet, sister of King Edward IV. According to info on this site that marriage produced 11 children, youngest on list was Richard born 1480. www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/plantagenet_51.html
Are Jane Okover and Alice de la Pole mentioned in any biography of the duke? A properly researched biography will have sources for original documents.
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: Maiden Stone on Monday 29 April 19 21:16 BST (UK)
P.S. to my reply #8.
A tree on roegenealogy.com has Alicia de la Pole, born in Wingfield, Suffolk, parents John de la Pole and Elizabeth Plantagenet. A note says he was John de la Pole of Hartington.

'Notices of the Family of Pole or de la Pole, of Derbyshire, and of other families connected with it'
This suggests a mistake in another source.
'John de la Pole of Newborough, County Stafford, married daughter & heir of Hartington, Co. Derby and had issue Sir John de la Pole of Newborough, knight ...'
This son, John had a son, Peter, whose son was John de la Pole, esquire, of Hartington.
'De la Pole of Hartington    little is recorded of their descent    only pedigree we have met with of them, and this is imperfect, is in Newton's MSS, to which we have been able to make trifling additions from other authorities, still it is very scanty .'
Then follows a genealogy of the de la Pole family of Hartington. This has a line of John, son of John, son of John &c. One John de la Pole, knight had a son, John de la Pole, esquire, who married Jane Okeover, daughter of Hum. Okeover of Okeover, esq. According to this tree they had 2 daughters, Lucia and Alicia. Alicia's husband was John Daykyns of Biggin Grange, parish of Hartington. There are no dates on the tree.  The writer of this text mentions doubts as to whether Alicia was Lucia's sister or her aunt.
Reference is made to documentary evidence that Hartington was already in possession of the de la Pole family in the reign of King Edward IV.
There is a pdf of relevant pages but my link didn't work.

If the genealogy of de la Pole of Hartington is correct, then it seems to me that someone has confused John de la Pole of Hartington, father (or possible brother) of Alicia de la Pole with the John de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk, who was married to Elizabeth Plantagenet, sister of King Edward IV.
To confuse matters further, Margaret Plantagenet, Duchess of Salisbury, daughter of George, Duke of Clarence and niece of Edward IV and Richard III, was married to a member of another Pole family. Henry VIII had her beheaded.
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: Mart 'n' Al on Monday 29 April 19 23:01 BST (UK)
You only need one female ancestor in several hundred years to "put it about a bit" to ruin all your careful research. My lovely aunt from my youth managed to conceal the fact that, until 15 years after her death, she was my dad's mother rather than his sister. 

On the plus side, she has made my research much more fun!

Martin
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: Maiden Stone on Monday 29 April 19 23:11 BST (UK)
Mart, I hope you are not implying that any of those honourable ladies 'put it about a bit'.  :o
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: Josephine on Tuesday 30 April 19 01:40 BST (UK)
Hi, GD40:

If you do a search for "John de la Pole" at the Internet Archive, you'll get some interesting results. Perhaps you might find a book or two with information that will help you prove or disprove your line.

https://archive.org/index.php

Good luck with your search.

Regards,
Josephine
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: Maiden Stone on Tuesday 30 April 19 02:54 BST (UK)
If you do a search for "John de la Pole" at the Internet Archive, you'll get some interesting results. Perhaps you might find a book or two with information that will help you prove or disprove your line.

https://archive.org/index.php
Try Delapole as surname. Most will be about John,  Duke of Suffolk and his son, John, Earl of Lincoln who was named heir to Richard III before Battle of Bosworth and who later joined a rebellion against Henry VII. Mentions of de la Poles in Visitations books for counties Derbyshire and Staffordshire are more likely to be relevant.
I used de la Pole and found loads of books about Arctic explorers.  ???
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: Josephine on Tuesday 30 April 19 04:07 BST (UK)
There's a handy little index/menu/thingie to the left of the search results. When I search on "John de la Pole" it shows 389 genealogy books (but doesn't show how many of those might be duplicates). There are other categories as well.
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: Maiden Stone on Tuesday 30 April 19 04:51 BST (UK)
Name is also spelled Poole in 'Visitacions of Staffordshire 1583' .  A daughter of a Poole of Harington was wife to someone. Countess of Salisbury & family were also down as Poole. There is also a Delapole in index.
I found that book by selecting heraldry from menu.
I also got thousands of books which contained 'John de' in the text.  ::)
Another set of results included South Pole as well as North Pole. My search has taken me from Pole to Pole.   ;D
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: GD40 on Tuesday 30 April 19 21:33 BST (UK)
Hi Everyone - Thanks for your input - It's all most intriguing!
cristeen:
I'm afraid I've implicitly trusted Ancestry Hints in the past, but will treat them with suspicion from now on!
Mort'n'Al:
Not just ladies "put it all about"! One of my great grandfathers, a Major General in India in the 1800's, enjoyed the company of a number of Bibis before he was married, who bore him four children!
Josephine and Maiden Stone  :
I'll renew my research of Alicia, but it is good to see her confirmed as a child of John Dakyns and Jane Okeover, with a sister Lucia.
I initially discovered her on Ancestry and then on My Heritage.
Thanks everybody for your help - Your enthusiasm is most heartening - Thank you.
Geoff.
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: Josephine on Tuesday 30 April 19 23:07 BST (UK)
Best of luck to you, Geoff. Your appreciation is much appreciated!

 :)

Regards,
Josephine
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: pinefamily on Wednesday 01 May 19 00:14 BST (UK)
I would be looking at wills to sort out for certain the various John's in that genealogy.
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: Maiden Stone on Wednesday 01 May 19 00:56 BST (UK)

cristeen:
I'm afraid I've implicitly trusted Ancestry Hints in the past, but will treat them with suspicion from now on!

Josephine and Maiden Stone  :
I'll renew my research of Alicia, but it is good to see her confirmed as a child of John Dakyns and Jane Okeover, with a sister Lucia.

I agree with Cristeen's post.

You mean Alicia confirmed as a child of John de la Pole and Jane Okeover.
According to 'Notices of the family of Pole or de la Pole of Derbyshire  ...'  which I cited in a previous post, Alicia de la Pole was probably the daughter of a John de la Pole of Derbyshire and Staffordshire  and Jane Okeover. The writer stated his/her opinion that it was the more likely relationship. Some other researchers had a different opinion. It's not 100% confirmation. You would need to know what sources the author used to reach the decision.
The 'Notices' seem to be a correction to information in volume VIII of 'Collectanes Topographica et Genealogica' .
I can't judge reliability of either writer. Medieval research is difficult, especially where women are concerned, as author of 'Notices' remarks.
There is information on the Daykin family in the article.

Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: Maiden Stone on Wednesday 01 May 19 01:55 BST (UK)
A tree on roegenealogy.com has Alicia de la Pole, born in Wingfield, Suffolk, parents John de la Pole and Elizabeth Plantagenet. A note says he was John de la Pole of Hartington.

Imo the note that Alicia's father was John de la Pole of Hartington is the only part of the above which is correct. The other John de la Pole was the Duke of Suffolk, married to Elizabeth Plantagenet, sister to King Edward IV. Wingfield was home of Dukes of Suffolk. Alicia de la Pole was probably born somewhere else.
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: BushInn1746 on Wednesday 01 May 19 01:58 BST (UK)
You'll need to prove who you are and where you live to get a Readers Ticket ...

de la Pole search dates 1000 to 1700
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_ep=de%20la%20pole&_dss=range&_sd=1000&_ed=1700&_ro=any&_st=adv

Acquired print images for a Medieval Grange building (now gone) where I live from an Index. But the Medieval writing inside one will need a specialist to even decipher the Deed.

Got two later, but Medieval documents (same building) I recognise as Latin.

There are many numerous errors re online Trees.

Re Family history, I can't get back past my ancestor born 1785 to 1786, despite tracing, acquiring extra document images (not online) and 23 newspaper references to the family, over 20 years.

The majority of family history documents acquired are not online and many are not even indexed online either. This is why family lineage histories vary in books too, as it is dependant upon how hard a person searches in manuscripts and their burden of proof threshold.

Got two books on the COBURN HOOD family (not related), one written by HOOD claiming to link to the COBURN family and one written by COBURN citing documents, Memorials and claiming that HOOD can't make the connection.

Mark
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: Maiden Stone on Wednesday 01 May 19 02:44 BST (UK)
You'll need to prove who you are and where you live to get a Readers Ticket ...

de la Pole search dates 1000 to 1700
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_ep=de%20la%20pole&_dss=range&_sd=1000&_ed=1700&_ro=any&_st=adv

Before you start searching through the almost 700 catalogue entries you need to distinguish the various de la Pole/Pole families so that you know which documents to ignore. A large number of them concern the Suffolk de la Pole family; I noticed some about the Earl of Lincoln, eldest son of the Duke of Suffolk, designated heir to Richard III,  who was killed leading a rebellion against Henry VII. You may need to do some historical background reading.
Some documents in National Archives online catalogue Discovery may be in county archives.

At least 2 members of the Derbyshire & Staffordshire de la Pole families served as Members of Parliament.
John de la Pole of Hartington, Derbyshire and Alstonfield, Staffordshire was (born c. 1385) became M.P. 1416.
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/pole-john-de-la-1385
A brief biography is included. His friend, Thomas Okeover is mentioned. Okeover was also an M.P. and had property in Derbyshire and Staffordshire. Click on Okeover's name for the entry about him.
There are probably Okeover documents in National Archives catalogue.
Peter de la Pole of Radbourne, Derbyshire and Newborough, Staffs., kinsman of the above John.
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/pole-peter-de-la-1444
He was present at Derbyshire parliamentary elections and helped to return his kinsman, John de la Pole of Hartington.
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: Maiden Stone on Wednesday 01 May 19 04:52 BST (UK)
You'll need to prove who you are and where you live to get a Readers Ticket ...

de la Pole search dates 1000 to 1700
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_ep=de%20la%20pole&_dss=range&_sd=1000&_ed=1700&_ro=any&_st=adv

Before you start searching through the almost 700 catalogue entries you need to distinguish the various de la Pole/Pole families so that you know which documents to ignore. A large number of them concern the Suffolk de la Pole family; I noticed some about the Earl of Lincoln, eldest son of the Duke of Suffolk, designated heir to Richard III,  who was killed leading a rebellion against Henry VII. You may need to do some historical background reading.
Some documents in National Archives online catalogue Discovery may be in county archives.

Results when selecting years 1400-1499 include several items at Derbyshire Record Office. Some of them are among the estate papers belonging to the Okeover family of Okeover: Staffordshire  and Derbyshire estates.
e.g. Title:  Power of attorney by John de la Pole of Hertyngton and John de Okor [Okeover]
Power of attorney by John de la Pole of Hertyngton and John de Okor, brother of Thomas de Okor,  to Geoffrey Walker to deliver seisin to Thomas de Okor of the manor of Okor and the villeins.
Held by: Derbyshire Record Office
Date: 1429
Ref; D231M/E477
There are other documents about property in the Okeover collection which name de la Pole.
(I scrolled through the de la Pole entries in NA catalogue for that century, ignoring any which mentioned Duke or Duchess of Suffolk or Earl or Countess of Lincoln.)
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: Maiden Stone on Wednesday 01 May 19 05:07 BST (UK)
I would be looking at wills to sort out for certain the various John's in that genealogy.
Definitely. Essential.
Peter de la Pole, one of the M.P.s was a lawyer, son of one of the most successful lawyers 'in the north'. John de la Pole later M.P. sued his mother and stepfather when he came of age. The de la Pole M.P.s and friend Okeover had wardships of several orphans. They knew their way about the law.
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: Guy Etchells on Wednesday 01 May 19 09:47 BST (UK)
If you do a search for "John de la Pole" at the Internet Archive, you'll get some interesting results. Perhaps you might find a book or two with information that will help you prove or disprove your line.

https://archive.org/index.php
Try Delapole as surname. Most will be about John,  Duke of Suffolk and his son, John, Earl of Lincoln who was named heir to Richard III before Battle of Bosworth and who later joined a rebellion against Henry VII. Mentions of de la Poles in Visitations books for counties Derbyshire and Staffordshire are more likely to be relevant.
I used de la Pole and found loads of books about Arctic explorers.  ???

Be very cautious when using Visitations as a source, they are very like 16th and 17th century forms of Ancestry Trees.
Some are faithful accurate pedigrees, some contain errors and a few are flights of fancy complied to please the person concerned.

Cheers
Guy
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: Mike in Cumbria on Wednesday 01 May 19 10:01 BST (UK)
Your earliest ancestor was a collection of organic molecules somewhere in the sea, possible in a volcanic vent. How will you recognise it when you find it?
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: GD40 on Wednesday 01 May 19 11:45 BST (UK)
I've just bought a very big magnifying glass!! and extended my membership of Ancestry to lifetime. (A joke, in view of the recent comments about Ancestry's records.)
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: Vance Mead on Wednesday 01 May 19 12:40 BST (UK)
They have original census records as well as original wills and parish records, so it's not completely useless.
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: Maiden Stone on Wednesday 01 May 19 15:31 BST (UK)
Be very cautious when using Visitations as a source, they are very like 16th and 17th century forms of Ancestry Trees.
Some are faithful accurate pedigrees, some contain errors and a few are flights of fancy complied to please the person concerned.

The medieval genealogy link posted by Vance cautions against regarding Heraldic Visitation books as gospel.
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: pinefamily on Wednesday 01 May 19 23:58 BST (UK)
The visitations are well known for some fabricated pedigrees to enhance a family's standing.
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: Maiden Stone on Thursday 02 May 19 17:28 BST (UK)
Coincidently, a John de la Pole cropped up in a document about a court case  when I was looking at National Archives Discovery catalogue yesterday for records of the Stanley family (later Earls of Derby) for another RootsChat enquiry. That John may have been the successful lawyer whom I mentioned in an earlier post. 
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: GD40 on Thursday 09 May 19 11:56 BST (UK)
I'm sorry for the long delay in replying.
I feel very guilty after all your hard work.
I think I am going to have to research with far more care in the future.
Thank you again.
With best regards,
Geoff Deakin.
Title: Re: Trying to trace my earliest ancestor......but struggling!
Post by: Maiden Stone on Thursday 09 May 19 22:40 BST (UK)
It was interesting. It made a change from the usual ag. labs. and factory workers.
I was already familiar with the 2 De la Pole/Pole families which are not yours, the ones who married into royalty and whose children met violent ends under the Tudor monarchy.