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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: GD40 on Monday 29 April 19 16:56 BST (UK)
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With your help, I have managed to trace my lineage back to Richard de la Diakne, born in 1212. He had a son, John 2nd Baldwin Dakin Dakeyne born apparently in 1388.
He had a son, Sir Thomas Dakin born in 1410, who married Margaret Worthington, also born 1n 1410.
If anybody can expand on this, I would be most grateful.
I am also trying to find out more about Alicia de la Pole born in 1480 to John de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk and Jane Okover.
You've always managed to unearth information that I've struggled with, so I live in hope.
Cheers,
Geoff Deakin.
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With your help, I have managed to trace my lineage back to Richard de la Diakne, born in 1212. He had a son, John 2nd Baldwin Dakin Dakeyne born apparently in 1388.
I would be very surprised if anyone born in 1212 could father a child born in 1388, it's a gap of 176 years!
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What sources did you use?
Gadget
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What sources did you use?
Gadget
Not a calculator!
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No... not a calculator!
I am using Ancestry, but couldn't bridge the age gap!
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Ancestry can be a complete quagmire of repeatedly copied and unchecked sources. If I were you I'd start with the earliest family or person for which you can real evidence and records, research them as thoroughly as possible before trying to go back a generation.
Getting back to the 11th or 12th century is no use if it's fiction. Most of the lines I researched I have got back to the mid 1700s with some certainty using a combination of parish records and wills, some lines another generation further back.
It can be just as interesting and rewarding to build a picture of your ancestors using as many sources as possible, maps, old books, newspaper articles etc and really get a feel for them, as it is to get back to William the Conqueror etc.
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As cristeen has said, Ancestry trees are often fictions.
As an example, I've just put Alicia de la Pole, 1480, into their search and find that her parents are recorded in one tree as George Pole and Margaret, Duchess of York.!!!
You need to work back from ancestors that you can source via parish records, wills, various documents, etc. and definitely not Ancestry trees. After 20-30 years of research, I have a few lines that go back to medieval times and some that barely creep into the 18th century. My tree (s) are very wide though, with descendants of ancestors's kin, etc. Also, the wealth of other information that cristeen has mentioned.
Gadget
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You can't rely on Ancestry.
For Medieval sources available online, the best place to start is here:
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/index.html
He has sources for many medieval records.
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I am also trying to find out more about Alicia de la Pole born in 1480 to John de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk and Jane Okover.
Was this John de la Pole, 2nd Duke of Suffolk, 1442-1492? Did he marry Jane Okover ?
He married Elizabeth Plantagenet, sister of King Edward IV. According to info on this site that marriage produced 11 children, youngest on list was Richard born 1480. www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/plantagenet_51.html
Are Jane Okover and Alice de la Pole mentioned in any biography of the duke? A properly researched biography will have sources for original documents.
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P.S. to my reply #8.
A tree on roegenealogy.com has Alicia de la Pole, born in Wingfield, Suffolk, parents John de la Pole and Elizabeth Plantagenet. A note says he was John de la Pole of Hartington.
'Notices of the Family of Pole or de la Pole, of Derbyshire, and of other families connected with it'
This suggests a mistake in another source.
'John de la Pole of Newborough, County Stafford, married daughter & heir of Hartington, Co. Derby and had issue Sir John de la Pole of Newborough, knight ...'
This son, John had a son, Peter, whose son was John de la Pole, esquire, of Hartington.
'De la Pole of Hartington … little is recorded of their descent … only pedigree we have met with of them, and this is imperfect, is in Newton's MSS, to which we have been able to make trifling additions from other authorities, still it is very scanty ….'
Then follows a genealogy of the de la Pole family of Hartington. This has a line of John, son of John, son of John &c. One John de la Pole, knight had a son, John de la Pole, esquire, who married Jane Okeover, daughter of Hum. Okeover of Okeover, esq. According to this tree they had 2 daughters, Lucia and Alicia. Alicia's husband was John Daykyns of Biggin Grange, parish of Hartington. There are no dates on the tree. The writer of this text mentions doubts as to whether Alicia was Lucia's sister or her aunt.
Reference is made to documentary evidence that Hartington was already in possession of the de la Pole family in the reign of King Edward IV.
There is a pdf of relevant pages but my link didn't work.
If the genealogy of de la Pole of Hartington is correct, then it seems to me that someone has confused John de la Pole of Hartington, father (or possible brother) of Alicia de la Pole with the John de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk, who was married to Elizabeth Plantagenet, sister of King Edward IV.
To confuse matters further, Margaret Plantagenet, Duchess of Salisbury, daughter of George, Duke of Clarence and niece of Edward IV and Richard III, was married to a member of another Pole family. Henry VIII had her beheaded.
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You only need one female ancestor in several hundred years to "put it about a bit" to ruin all your careful research. My lovely aunt from my youth managed to conceal the fact that, until 15 years after her death, she was my dad's mother rather than his sister.
On the plus side, she has made my research much more fun!
Martin
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Mart, I hope you are not implying that any of those honourable ladies 'put it about a bit'. :o
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Hi, GD40:
If you do a search for "John de la Pole" at the Internet Archive, you'll get some interesting results. Perhaps you might find a book or two with information that will help you prove or disprove your line.
https://archive.org/index.php
Good luck with your search.
Regards,
Josephine
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If you do a search for "John de la Pole" at the Internet Archive, you'll get some interesting results. Perhaps you might find a book or two with information that will help you prove or disprove your line.
https://archive.org/index.php
Try Delapole as surname. Most will be about John, Duke of Suffolk and his son, John, Earl of Lincoln who was named heir to Richard III before Battle of Bosworth and who later joined a rebellion against Henry VII. Mentions of de la Poles in Visitations books for counties Derbyshire and Staffordshire are more likely to be relevant.
I used de la Pole and found loads of books about Arctic explorers. ???
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There's a handy little index/menu/thingie to the left of the search results. When I search on "John de la Pole" it shows 389 genealogy books (but doesn't show how many of those might be duplicates). There are other categories as well.
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Name is also spelled Poole in 'Visitacions of Staffordshire 1583' . A daughter of a Poole of Harington was wife to someone. Countess of Salisbury & family were also down as Poole. There is also a Delapole in index.
I found that book by selecting heraldry from menu.
I also got thousands of books which contained 'John de' in the text. ::)
Another set of results included South Pole as well as North Pole. My search has taken me from Pole to Pole. ;D
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Hi Everyone - Thanks for your input - It's all most intriguing!
cristeen:
I'm afraid I've implicitly trusted Ancestry Hints in the past, but will treat them with suspicion from now on!
Mort'n'Al:
Not just ladies "put it all about"! One of my great grandfathers, a Major General in India in the 1800's, enjoyed the company of a number of Bibis before he was married, who bore him four children!
Josephine and Maiden Stone :
I'll renew my research of Alicia, but it is good to see her confirmed as a child of John Dakyns and Jane Okeover, with a sister Lucia.
I initially discovered her on Ancestry and then on My Heritage.
Thanks everybody for your help - Your enthusiasm is most heartening - Thank you.
Geoff.
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Best of luck to you, Geoff. Your appreciation is much appreciated!
:)
Regards,
Josephine
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I would be looking at wills to sort out for certain the various John's in that genealogy.
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cristeen:
I'm afraid I've implicitly trusted Ancestry Hints in the past, but will treat them with suspicion from now on!
Josephine and Maiden Stone :
I'll renew my research of Alicia, but it is good to see her confirmed as a child of John Dakyns and Jane Okeover, with a sister Lucia.
I agree with Cristeen's post.
You mean Alicia confirmed as a child of John de la Pole and Jane Okeover.
According to 'Notices of the family of Pole or de la Pole of Derbyshire ...' which I cited in a previous post, Alicia de la Pole was probably the daughter of a John de la Pole of Derbyshire and Staffordshire and Jane Okeover. The writer stated his/her opinion that it was the more likely relationship. Some other researchers had a different opinion. It's not 100% confirmation. You would need to know what sources the author used to reach the decision.
The 'Notices' seem to be a correction to information in volume VIII of 'Collectanes Topographica et Genealogica' .
I can't judge reliability of either writer. Medieval research is difficult, especially where women are concerned, as author of 'Notices' remarks.
There is information on the Daykin family in the article.
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A tree on roegenealogy.com has Alicia de la Pole, born in Wingfield, Suffolk, parents John de la Pole and Elizabeth Plantagenet. A note says he was John de la Pole of Hartington.
Imo the note that Alicia's father was John de la Pole of Hartington is the only part of the above which is correct. The other John de la Pole was the Duke of Suffolk, married to Elizabeth Plantagenet, sister to King Edward IV. Wingfield was home of Dukes of Suffolk. Alicia de la Pole was probably born somewhere else.
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You'll need to prove who you are and where you live to get a Readers Ticket ...
de la Pole search dates 1000 to 1700
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_ep=de%20la%20pole&_dss=range&_sd=1000&_ed=1700&_ro=any&_st=adv
Acquired print images for a Medieval Grange building (now gone) where I live from an Index. But the Medieval writing inside one will need a specialist to even decipher the Deed.
Got two later, but Medieval documents (same building) I recognise as Latin.
There are many numerous errors re online Trees.
Re Family history, I can't get back past my ancestor born 1785 to 1786, despite tracing, acquiring extra document images (not online) and 23 newspaper references to the family, over 20 years.
The majority of family history documents acquired are not online and many are not even indexed online either. This is why family lineage histories vary in books too, as it is dependant upon how hard a person searches in manuscripts and their burden of proof threshold.
Got two books on the COBURN HOOD family (not related), one written by HOOD claiming to link to the COBURN family and one written by COBURN citing documents, Memorials and claiming that HOOD can't make the connection.
Mark
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You'll need to prove who you are and where you live to get a Readers Ticket ...
de la Pole search dates 1000 to 1700
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_ep=de%20la%20pole&_dss=range&_sd=1000&_ed=1700&_ro=any&_st=adv
Before you start searching through the almost 700 catalogue entries you need to distinguish the various de la Pole/Pole families so that you know which documents to ignore. A large number of them concern the Suffolk de la Pole family; I noticed some about the Earl of Lincoln, eldest son of the Duke of Suffolk, designated heir to Richard III, who was killed leading a rebellion against Henry VII. You may need to do some historical background reading.
Some documents in National Archives online catalogue Discovery may be in county archives.
At least 2 members of the Derbyshire & Staffordshire de la Pole families served as Members of Parliament.
John de la Pole of Hartington, Derbyshire and Alstonfield, Staffordshire was (born c. 1385) became M.P. 1416.
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/pole-john-de-la-1385
A brief biography is included. His friend, Thomas Okeover is mentioned. Okeover was also an M.P. and had property in Derbyshire and Staffordshire. Click on Okeover's name for the entry about him.
There are probably Okeover documents in National Archives catalogue.
Peter de la Pole of Radbourne, Derbyshire and Newborough, Staffs., kinsman of the above John.
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/pole-peter-de-la-1444
He was present at Derbyshire parliamentary elections and helped to return his kinsman, John de la Pole of Hartington.
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You'll need to prove who you are and where you live to get a Readers Ticket ...
de la Pole search dates 1000 to 1700
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_ep=de%20la%20pole&_dss=range&_sd=1000&_ed=1700&_ro=any&_st=adv
Before you start searching through the almost 700 catalogue entries you need to distinguish the various de la Pole/Pole families so that you know which documents to ignore. A large number of them concern the Suffolk de la Pole family; I noticed some about the Earl of Lincoln, eldest son of the Duke of Suffolk, designated heir to Richard III, who was killed leading a rebellion against Henry VII. You may need to do some historical background reading.
Some documents in National Archives online catalogue Discovery may be in county archives.
Results when selecting years 1400-1499 include several items at Derbyshire Record Office. Some of them are among the estate papers belonging to the Okeover family of Okeover: Staffordshire and Derbyshire estates.
e.g. Title: Power of attorney by John de la Pole of Hertyngton and John de Okor [Okeover]
Power of attorney by John de la Pole of Hertyngton and John de Okor, brother of Thomas de Okor, to Geoffrey Walker to deliver seisin to Thomas de Okor of the manor of Okor and the villeins.
Held by: Derbyshire Record Office
Date: 1429
Ref; D231M/E477
There are other documents about property in the Okeover collection which name de la Pole.
(I scrolled through the de la Pole entries in NA catalogue for that century, ignoring any which mentioned Duke or Duchess of Suffolk or Earl or Countess of Lincoln.)
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I would be looking at wills to sort out for certain the various John's in that genealogy.
Definitely. Essential.
Peter de la Pole, one of the M.P.s was a lawyer, son of one of the most successful lawyers 'in the north'. John de la Pole later M.P. sued his mother and stepfather when he came of age. The de la Pole M.P.s and friend Okeover had wardships of several orphans. They knew their way about the law.
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If you do a search for "John de la Pole" at the Internet Archive, you'll get some interesting results. Perhaps you might find a book or two with information that will help you prove or disprove your line.
https://archive.org/index.php
Try Delapole as surname. Most will be about John, Duke of Suffolk and his son, John, Earl of Lincoln who was named heir to Richard III before Battle of Bosworth and who later joined a rebellion against Henry VII. Mentions of de la Poles in Visitations books for counties Derbyshire and Staffordshire are more likely to be relevant.
I used de la Pole and found loads of books about Arctic explorers. ???
Be very cautious when using Visitations as a source, they are very like 16th and 17th century forms of Ancestry Trees.
Some are faithful accurate pedigrees, some contain errors and a few are flights of fancy complied to please the person concerned.
Cheers
Guy
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Your earliest ancestor was a collection of organic molecules somewhere in the sea, possible in a volcanic vent. How will you recognise it when you find it?
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I've just bought a very big magnifying glass!! and extended my membership of Ancestry to lifetime. (A joke, in view of the recent comments about Ancestry's records.)
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They have original census records as well as original wills and parish records, so it's not completely useless.
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Be very cautious when using Visitations as a source, they are very like 16th and 17th century forms of Ancestry Trees.
Some are faithful accurate pedigrees, some contain errors and a few are flights of fancy complied to please the person concerned.
The medieval genealogy link posted by Vance cautions against regarding Heraldic Visitation books as gospel.
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The visitations are well known for some fabricated pedigrees to enhance a family's standing.
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Coincidently, a John de la Pole cropped up in a document about a court case when I was looking at National Archives Discovery catalogue yesterday for records of the Stanley family (later Earls of Derby) for another RootsChat enquiry. That John may have been the successful lawyer whom I mentioned in an earlier post.
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I'm sorry for the long delay in replying.
I feel very guilty after all your hard work.
I think I am going to have to research with far more care in the future.
Thank you again.
With best regards,
Geoff Deakin.
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It was interesting. It made a change from the usual ag. labs. and factory workers.
I was already familiar with the 2 De la Pole/Pole families which are not yours, the ones who married into royalty and whose children met violent ends under the Tudor monarchy.
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Hi,
Thanks for all your replies, but....
I'm still struggling with Alicia de la Pole (1480-1500) !
I have two lineages suggested for her - The first is with her mother being Jane Okeover (1496-1524) and her father as John de la Pole of Hartington (1509-1570). The trouble here is that Jane was born 16 years after Alicia's birth and John was born 29 years after her birth.
The second option is her mother is Elizabeth Plantagenet (1444-1504) and her father as John de la Pole 2nd Duke of Suffolk (1442-1492). At least with this pairing, the dates allow a possibility, but I can't find any definite proof.
If anybody has any views on this, I would much appreciate their comments.
Alicia is doing my head in.
Cheers,
Geoff Deakin.
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Jane was born 16 years after Alicia's birth and John was born 29 years after her birth.
I don't believe that humans have changed all that much over the last 1000 years but I'd say it's still rather unlikely that Alicia was the dau of Jane & John (assuming that the dates you've quoted were somewhat correct) - but of course it's your option to accept or reject the possibility.
That actually sounds like an example from an Ancestry tree I've seen ::)
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A quick search online at several sites reveals that John De La Pole and Elizabeth Plantegenet had 11 children-Edmund, Humphrey, Catherine , John, Elizabeth,Geoffrey, Dorothy,Edward, Anne, William and Richard....no Alicia.
John's mother was Alicia(Chaucer) and he had 2 sisters, again neither of them named any children Alicia.
Perhaps John's father William had siblings who might be the clue to this? https://www.geni.com/people/William-de-la-Pole-1st-Duke-of-Suffolk/6000000001068679621
djm297
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I am also trying to find out more about Alicia de la Pole born in 1480 to John de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk and Jane Okover.
Was this John de la Pole, 2nd Duke of Suffolk, 1442-1492? Did he marry Jane Okover ?
He married Elizabeth Plantagenet, sister of King Edward IV. According to info on this site that marriage produced 11 children, youngest on list was Richard born 1480. www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/plantagenet_51.html
Are Jane Okover and Alice de la Pole mentioned in any biography of the duke? A properly researched biography will have sources for original documents.
Is there a credible source for John, Duke of Suffolk & Jane Okover as parents for Alicia de la Pole? Were there any other children born from the union? Any evidence for Jane Okover as wife of Duke of Suffolk or whatever title John de la Pole had at the time?
If they were her parents you should consider possibility they weren't married.
If John, Duke of Suffolk was her father and he recognised her as her daughter, she may have been mentioned in a will or marriage settlement.
Another possibility is that there was more than 1 de la Pole - Okover marriage.
One tactic is to follow each Alicia candidate forward, trying to find out if they survived to marriage & having children.
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Thanks very much - I'll keep digging!
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You'll need to prove who you are and where you live to get a Readers Ticket ...
de la Pole search dates 1000 to 1700
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_ep=de%20la%20pole&_dss=range&_sd=1000&_ed=1700&_ro=any&_st=adv
Before you start searching through the almost 700 catalogue entries you need to distinguish the various de la Pole/Pole families so that you know which documents to ignore. A large number of them concern the Suffolk de la Pole family; I noticed some about the Earl of Lincoln, eldest son of the Duke of Suffolk, designated heir to Richard III, who was killed leading a rebellion against Henry VII. You may need to do some historical background reading.
Some documents in National Archives online catalogue Discovery may be in county archives.
As you go back through the documents at The National Archives (TNA), University Special Collections and County Record Offices and Institutions around the Country, one document should lead you to another and related places and people, connected with the family.
Some information contained within many Manuscripts about a Family is unlikely to be online.
The British Library also have a Dept of MSS and the National Libraries and Archives of Wales and Scotland might sometimes acquire items.
One tip, never pick up from where someone else claimed to have got to, you'll often miss a historical background of a family including where the Family lived. Because many landed families lived in several residences during the year and held lands in many different Counties / Countries, which may suggest where possible surviving documents might be held now.
Modern books are sometimes copied from other book/s, or from older books originally written by people wishing to make a grandiose link to a particular person granted Arms and they may have brushed over Manuscripts hidden away in Archives.
Besides Wills, look for Marriage Settlements (before Couples got together) and Transfers of Estates, even modest properties, etc., etc., too.
Don't forget some were Merchants, trading across the Seas, or involved in Crusades going back in history, or worse, even executed, property seized, or sold to pay Tax, etc., or under Papal Law.
Some family documents before and since Henry VIII might even be in the Vatican Archives, or if purchased by them, especially if of Catholic interest.
When families married into another family, property documents and Settlements (apparently missing with one Family) survive as Mss in the other Family Collection, or some documents were acquired by the Family who subsequently took over a Manor or Estate by purchase (to prove a line of ownership).
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Four thousand (4,000) Manuscripts were put up for sale mid 19th Century at the Family Seat house clearance (many for part of our Historic village), collectors from various places purchased them and as these people died parts then got deposited far and wide to Archives across England and Wales.
One author has linked my town to Aston Hall near Birmingham and stated there are no documents. However, there are thousands of surviving Mss documents! He has the wrong Aston Hall, in the wrong county and in the wrong place!
Mark
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As you go back through the documents at The National Archives (TNA), University Special Collections and County Record Offices and Institutions around the Country, one document should lead you to another and related places and people, connected with the family.
Besides Wills, look for Marriage Settlements (before Couples got together) and Transfers of Estates, even modest properties, etc., etc., too.
Don't forget some were Merchants, trading across the Seas, or involved in Crusades going back in history, or worse, even executed, property seized, or sold to pay Tax, etc., or under Papal Law.
Some family documents before and since Henry VIII might even be in the Vatican Archives, or if purchased by them, especially if of Catholic interest.
Four thousand (4,000) Manuscripts were put up for sale mid 19th Century at the Family Seat house clearance (many for part of our Historic village), collectors from various places purchased them and as these people died parts then got deposited far and wide to Archives across England and Wales.
One author has linked my town to Aston Hall near Birmingham and stated there are no documents. …. He has the wrong Aston Hall, in the wrong county and in the wrong place!
Clicking on the title of a collection in Discovery catalogue (TNA) will show other items in that particular collection and possibly a history of the collection.
Wills might have been proved at Canterbury or York, (or Chester?) depending on where a person had property. If they held property in more than 1 jurisdiction, the will was proved at Canterbury. All those Pole/de la Pole families travelled a fair bit and had property in more than 1 county.
Wills of a few of my Catholic ancestors who died in 18thC. weren't with the main will collection in county archives but among enrolled wills in George III Rolls collection. One will was duplicated in each collection.
The Pole and de la Pole families who married into the Plantagenet royal family found themselves on the wrong side of history, first on the finally losing side in the dynastic struggle, and later the Reformation. Death in battle or by execution, or exile, confiscation of estates, fines &c. Unmarried females considered a potential threat to the new regime were likely to be married off to loyalists or put in a convent (pre-Reformation).
Re. stray documents. There is a website called "Dusty Docs". There are similar sites listing documents which have come into people's possession.
I've noticed wrong places on several online genealogies for people born pre 1600. Perhaps researchers accepting the only record they found as the correct one. Being born in 1 county and baptised in another raises my credulity antennae.