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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Kylie B on Tuesday 30 April 19 05:58 BST (UK)
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Hi there,
I am looking for information on what happened to the children of Esther TAYLOR and George CREIGHTON from Coonamble NSW.
It would appear that the sons- Charles Richard born 1884 and George Hector born 1877- were both admitted to the Vernon Industrial School in June 1888.
How do I find out why they were admitted there, how long they were there for and what happened to them after that?
I think....they went there as they had been abandoned by their parents, which if correct, means I am also looking for 3 sisters and what became of them at that time also.....any ideas please?
Many thanks everyone!
Kylie
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Hi Kylie,
It has the entrance records on ancestry.
It says mother and brother is in gaol and father is living away from Coonamble and the children were living in a destitute house with no-one to care for them.
Ros
sorry I have to dash or I would add a snip for you
You could check NSW state archives for gaol records and photographs https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/
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Thanks very much Ros- so abandoned as I suspected.
I will try state archives for gaol records.
Do you know where the girls may have gone??
Thanks for the advice!!
Kylie
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Here is an earlier thread that I remember posting on, I have not read back through it, but it may have information about the children
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=559298.0
JM
ADD here is the Opening Post from that earlier thread. It has information about the children, and it notes that their mum was in gaol and their father was working away. May I note that in that era, many menfolk in rural situations would be working away .... sometimes for 10 - 15 months - eg a droving plant or landclearing (ringbarking, lopping, sawing, fencing etc) or canal building ...
Hoping someone might have some inspiration on this one...!!
I have an Esther Taylor- born circa 1859 in Mille near Narrabri NSW
She married George Creighton in Coonamble in 1875- no ages recorded on marriage, but if her age on her children's birth is correct, she was a minor (16yrs old).
Esther and George had 5 children- all born in Coonamble- George Hector, Charles Richard, Edith, Emily Jane and Sarah.
George was a sawyer, apparently away from home with work a lot, and died in 1893 in Toowoomba QLD.
I have now found records of the children which shed a bit more light on the family...In May 1888, George Hector was arrested for stealing. According to his record, he was un-educated, under-fed and un-cared for, roaming the streets. He was sent to an Industrial School (the ship the Vernon). The other brother Charles was arrested shortly after- for roaming the streets un-cared for. He was too young to be sent to an industrial school, so became a Dependant child of the State, was taken into the Benevolent Society, and then fostered out. It would appear the same happened to Edith and Emily. I have not found any sign of Sarah.
Now on these children's records, they describe the parents as unfit and not loking after their children, being frequently drunk, and that Esther Creighton was frequently in custody for larceny, drunkeness and prostitution. She was definately in custody in May 1888 for stealing- when her children were picked up off the streets of Coonamble.
I would like to find out what was Esther's story- her time in custody and what happened when she got out and found her children gone- where did she go and what did she do....but here is the hitch.
The records of Coonamble gaol (where I assume she was in custody) are held by the state correctional services, not the archives, and they require proof of relationship...which means 8 birth and marriage certificates.
SO!! I am wondeirng if there is any other way of finding out more about Esther's criminal activities, and what became of her after 1888???
Hoping for a bright idea as I am stuck!
Kylie
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https://www.findandconnect.gov.au/guide/nsw/NE01100
http://www.cockatooisland.gov.au/visit/history/reform-school
https://blogs.ancestry.com.au/ancestry/2011/03/03/entrance-books-for-the-vernon-and-the-sobraon-1867-1911/
https://researchdata.ands.org.au/nautical-school-ship-1892-1911/164521
and many others to be found via Mr Google ;) :D ;)
JM
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Thanks so much JM- yep they were my much earlier threads and I never got to the bottom of the story....
So back on the hunt again and hoping for fresh eyes and fresh ideas!!
Still no idea what became of the 5 children between 1888 and their adult life events. Or what became of their mother Esther Creighten nee Taylor.
Thanks for any advice!!!
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Trove is an excellent resource. Free to search, and with a great keyword search option set
The Cumberland Argus & Fruitgrowers Advocate. 7 Feb 1891
Parramatta Police Court
George Hector Creighton, a boy of 13 was charged with absconding from his apprenticeship to Mary Ann FULLER of Dural. The boy was apprenticed to Mrs Fuller from the training ship Vernor in September 1889, and on 14th ultimo (ie January) absconded.... ..... Mr Best would be glad to have him transferred from Mrs Fuller to himself .... to allow time for steps to be taken to secure the transfer of the indentures....
Thanks so much JM- yep they were my much earlier threads and I never got to the bottom of the story....
So back on the hunt again and hoping for fresh eyes and fresh ideas!!
Still no idea what became of the 5 children between 1888 and their adult life events. Or what became of their mother Esther Creighten nee Taylor.
Thanks for any advice!!!
Here is the live link to Trove : https://trove.nla.gov.au/
and the live link to Trove's digitised newspapers advanced search option.
JM
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Brilliant JM thank you so much!
Off to trawl Trove tonight 😁😁😁
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Charles Richard CREIGHTON’s admission papers to Vernon commence 26th May 1888, and are very detailed and confronting. They include that ‘the Mother of the said child having been on the 25th May Inst. Convicted of Larcency and sentence to two months imprisonment in Coonamble Gaol. The house where the said child was found being the resort of thieves drunkards & chinamen’ It further notes that information to name and birth (for Charles) was ‘obtained from the District Registrar Coonamble. Information as to religion obtained from parents.’ And ‘Uneducated never attended any school’. …. And much more.
I comment,
:) May 1888 less Sept 1884 puts Charles at age 3, so there was NO reason for him to be enrolled at school.
;) The document definitely has ‘parents’ not ‘parent’
;) The police prosecuted Esther, and she went to gaol the day BEFORE this action against Charles, aged 3. – So prosecute the mother, and then go after the children ….
:) The document includes this note ‘There are five children none of whom have been inmates of any institution’. And ‘The boy’s health appears to be good’.
:) And ‘The day previous to arresting the children (so perhaps same day as arresting Esther) the police had entered the premises and found Esther with a drunken man, not her husband, lying on the bed and the children were huddled together in the corner of the room.
May I suggest you go through the earlier thread as I recall going through all this back then. Did you enlist the support of a Member of Parliament for access to the Coonamble Gaol records?
JM
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Hi JM
I did try my local member with no result.
So I am still trying to work out how to construct the story of Esther and the children.
It appears their father died in QLD in 1893- I am waiting on documents from QLD archives to confirm & hopefully give more detail but I am assuming he did not get the children back between 1888 and 1893...
JM I might re try Dept of Correctional services....Or would there be court records for her convictions in Coonamble that could be accessed??
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Ok so this is interesting.....
I have obtained insanity records- which say very little; inquest records and then a subsequent death certificate for George Creighton in Toowoomba QLD in June 1893.
It would appear he was reported to the police in 1892, picked up and taken to the Hospital for the insane with a diagnosis of dementia. Record states good condition of body, insane of mind.
His death certificate informant is the steward from the Hospital, and states his parents, his birthplace of Wakefield England, his spouse as Esther Taylor whom he married in Coonamble (age unknown) and lists all his children- George Hector, Emily jane, Edith, George Richard and Sarah, but states no ages for the children. Further statement under childrens names says not known if living or deceased.
So my question is- if George had dementia when he was admitted to the hospital, was he still of fit enough mind to have been able to provide them with those family details? Or how else could they have obtained them to provide on his death certificate?? And would the hospital have contacted his family to notify them he had been admitted?
It states he is buried in Toowoomba cemetery- who would have paid for that? Who would have paid his hospital fees?
As far as I know, the Creighton children were removed from their mother in May 1888- George was in Toowoomba in 1892 to be admitted to the hospital. Could that be where he was working at the time of his children's removal? And if so, would he have been contacted/ could he have been notified?
I now know where the father of this family ended up, but seem to have even more questions than before now.
Can anyone tell me more about how admissions to hospitals of the insane worked, and how this situation might have evolved regarding his family?
The plot continues to thicken it seems.....
Kylie :-\
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The details about his origins, marriage and children of the marriage may well have been written on a document/s that he carried with his personal belongings... hospital attendant may have accessed that on admission.
I dont have much knowledge of Qld hospital records, but good body condition suggests to me that he was still physically fit ... so likely still working outdoors,
JM
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Re fees etc .....
He may have had cash on him ... check the hospital admissions and inquest ....
Burials ..what denomination as per the d.c. or cemetery index ...
JM
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Hi JM
There is not much info in the hospital record, but there is a reply letter from a Rev Drew- Church of England, dated a few months after he was admitted, stating that he cannot provide further information on the man George Creighton than 'the papers afford that accompanied him'. So perhaps that was the source of the info on the death certificate, which in fairness was remarkably detailed.
Burial was Church of England.
I am looking at Trove and there seem to be quite a few mentions of a George Creighton in the area- a 'young man' being struck by lightening there prior to the marriage date to Esther, and then a mention of him being picked up and admitted to the lunatic asylum.
I will keep looking but would be grateful for anyone's suggestions or advice!
Kylie
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I wonder how many chaps named George CREIGHTON were in the Toowoomba district in 1892/3
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/217675316 6 June 1893 Toowoomba Chronicle
Toowoomba Hospital, this chap died of a Stomach bleed.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/217677536 20 May 1893 Toowoomba Chronicle
likely the funeral for the chap mentioned above
Notice that the Lodge inserted one of the notices, so likely the lodge would have the member's funeral funds at hand.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/217673105 16 Sept 1893 Toowoomba Chronicle
notice this is for a Geo Henry CREIGHTON, removing his name from the electoral roll,
So if the above chap is YOUR chap, he had a middle name and he was on the electoral roll, and he had Lodge membership. You may find that the Lodge knew the names of the children, and perhaps some of them were in care with Lodge members OR Lodge children's homes located anywhere in Qld or NSW ...
https://www.findandconnect.gov.au/ref/qld/biogs/QE00110b.htm
MUIOOF Manchester Unity Independent Order of Odd Fellows...
http://archival.sl.nsw.gov.au/Details/archive/110345548
NSW State Library, Macquarie St, Sydney, has a huge collection of MUIOOF archives.
JM
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Hi JM
Have checked those out- the death on 6 June was in Toowoomba hospital, which must be different from the 'lunatic asylum', and the funeral notice for the member of the Lodge was before this death in May, again from the hospital though.
And my George Creighton died on 17 June 1893.
So it would seem there were at least 3!! George Creighton's in Toowoomba, who all died in May-June 1893. Now that IS weird!
But it means my George was not the member of the Lodge, so those records seemingly are unlikely to help. And it means it is going to be very difficult to determine if any other articles in Toowoomba are in fact about my George, or one of these many others...
My George's death states Congestion of the brain 1yr + (I assume that is their description of dementia) and congestion of the lungs- few days. The inquest describes him as suffering a series of convulsions and then being unresponsive, receiving his food and medicines via injection and then dying several days later.
Not sure where to now....I am still waiting on correctional services, local family history society, national library, state archives, Coonamble library all of whom I have contacted trying to find out more info about Esther.
Kylie
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I think they are for just the ONE person... the Qld BDM online index has just one chap dying in Qld in 1893, by the surname CREIGHTON. It is for a George CREIGHTON, father as Joseph Creighton and mother as Sarah Hepworth, and is referenced C1433.
https://www.bdm.qld.gov.au/IndexSearch/querySubmit.m?v=DeathSearch_error
JM
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The 6 June is the report from the hospital for the month of May....
The funeral may well have been held before the inquest's decision was forwarded to complete the formal registration of the death ... look carefully over the d.c. for every date recorded o it,
including
date of death
Date of burial
Date of inquest
Date of registration
JM
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Hi JM
I am really confused now...the death certificate makes no mention of an inquest. It states George died on 17th June and was buried on 19th June.
I have re-checked the inquest papers and they are definately for the same man- died on 17th June 1893.
So there cannot have been a funeral notice for him in May, although perhaps that funeral notice is for the man who died in Toowoomba hospital of a stomach bleed? But that means there should be 2 deaths in QLD for a George Creighton....
So confused ??? ??? ???
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EDIT TO ALERT READERS TO SEE LATER REPLIES (#20 AND #21), THERE WERE TWO CHAPS.
So you know that you have the d.c. for your George. So no need to be confused. One step at a time, taken slowly forward.
1. Deaths in hospital need to be certified by a medico, and in some jurisdictions any hospital death involves a coroner. I am not sure if Qld required coroner to be notified.
2. A death in third week of May 1893 could be a death 17/5/93 and a funeral on the Sunday was not at all unusual in that era ... it was a day of the week that most people were available ...
3. Could the cemetery confirm the date your George was buried ... cemetery should be recorded on the d.c.....
My fingers are crossed that there was just the one chap, and there is some clerical error on the d.c.
4. Coroners have been known to issue burial orders for public health concerns before they have finalised the coronial enquiries.
5. 17 /05 / 93 v 17 /06 /93 d.c. likely has month of June written in full rather than as a number ...
Too late tonight to think more.
JM
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STARTING TO UNCONFUSE NOW :D
Hi there,
FindMyPast has uploaded data provided by the Genealogical Society of Queensland
The Toowoomba Cemetery Parish Burials Index has TWO chaps burials of interest May and June 1893:
Index reference 2/52 is for a George CRIGHTON aged 47, buried 19 May 1893
Index reference 2/53 is for a George CRIGHTON aged 50, buried 19 June 1893.
JM (Clearer head this morning, so searched for Crighton as alternative to Creighton !)
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Qld BDM online index
C1427
George Henry CRIGHTON, with parents as Charles CRIGHTON and Mary WILLIAMS
the index drills down to 19 May 1893 as the date of death.
C1433
George CREIGHTON, with parents as Joseph CREIGHTON and Sarah HEPWORTH
the index drills down to 17 June 1893 as the date of death
https://www.qld.gov.au/law/births-deaths-marriages-and-divorces/family-history-research
JM
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Ah-ha!
Ok so that is much clearer.
So the 1st man was a member of the Lodge.
I wonder how long my George was in Toowoomba before he went into the asylum in 1892? And what took him there in the 1st place??
Back to trawl Trove further to see what I can discover. ..
Would there be anything to be gained from contacting the cemetery?
Thanks JM
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If this was my ancestor, yes, I would contact the Cemetery and ask what information they hold, about BOTH graves, and are there charges for accessing their records, and can they help you with any further information about either George, to help you know how to isolate which George is which when you are continuing your research in their district :) :) :) as you may be visiting the area in the coming months. ;D ;D I would also compliment them on their great website, it even lists 'notables' and has background history...
http://www.tr.qld.gov.au/facilities-recreation/cemeteries/cemetery-locations/3227-drayton-a-toowoomba
JM
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Hi JM- so glad we are not going mad....at least not with regard to this particular search!!
I have emailed the cemetery and will keep you posted on what I hear back. Thank you so much for all your help clarifying and advice on where to next!
Off to keep trawling Trove for any other clues.
Kylie
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An update :)
So I heard back from the Cemetery in Toowoomba. They were very helpful, but had little additional info, other than to say it would appear George Creighton had a headstone at burial, but they are unsure if it is still there.
I contacted the local library where an amazingly helpful lady did some searching for me and found the following:
George Creighton was NOT on the electoral role for Toowoomba in 1890.
Cost for treatment at the Hospital for the insane was 25pounds on admission...Was that a lot of money in 1892? I am wondering about George having that sum of money on him??
The 'other' George Crighton was from Gehem, was a member of the local Lodge, had funeral notices published quite widely (not just locally) and was also buried at Toowoomba cemetery.
I have also heard back from the museum in Coonamble who said they are unsure where the court records from the 1880's are held, but suggested a search of the Police gazettes for that decade to look for mentions of Esther as apparently if she was arrested, it would be mentioned in there.
Does anyone have access to the police gazette's that can have a look for me please?
And I will contact the Toowoomba hospital directly and see if they hold records that are open and can be checked for more info on George.
Still open to any and all suggestions!!!!!!!
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NSW history re state wards/neglected children in the colonial era can be difficult to find, but there are historians who have undertaken research and published on this hidden topic.
Have you accessed any of the published books by Professor Ramsland? And of course the lists of source materials in those books... it can be a confronting read , but it may be there will be quality tips that may bring new thoughts re existing resources to be examined ....
JM
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Thanks JM I haven't heard of Professor Ramsland so I will see if I can find any of his books.
Thanks so much
Kylie
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The book, Children of the Back lanes is one of his. Likely my copy is with one of my younger set, hopefully it will come back here when they have finished with it; but I'm fairly confident it covers the years when Esther's children were growing up.
JM
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This is the book I referred to
https://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/1619959?lookfor=author:%22Ramsland,%20John,%201942-%22&offset=17&max=21 ... don't ignore the details in the Bibliography ... :D usually worth following every one of this chap's references.
also of interest
http://librareadbooks.info/with-just-but-relentless-discipline-a-social-history-of-corrective-services-in-new-south-wales-copies-txt-for-ebook-john-ramsland.pdf
Fingers crossed that one well hidden clue will be found that will be the key to opening the crack in this brickwall.
JM
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Thanks JM!