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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Tuesday 30 April 19 12:00 BST (UK)

Title: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Tuesday 30 April 19 12:00 BST (UK)
My grandfather's name was Michael Ramon George Carey Joseph Webb. He was born in 1928. His mother was Doreen Lucy Udall b.1906, who also used the name Doreen Siddons.

His father was known by some as Tom Webb, known by some as Ramon Carey George Webb and known by others as George Carey Ramon Webb. So far, having tried every site in my repertoire, including FreeReg and the 1939 census.. I have no results for this person. His name is different on every one of his children's baptism records.

I can find no birth records, no marriage records and no death records.  ??? ??? ???

My question: Is there a way to find out who this person was.? Or find the family at some point in time.?

Thank you for your help.
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 30 April 19 12:15 BST (UK)
Just to help people - is this grandfather?

Michael R G C Webb b 1928 Bournemouth mmn Udall

Doreen Lucy born 1906 Beaminster


Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 30 April 19 12:17 BST (UK)
Do you have a marriage for Webb/Udall?
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 30 April 19 12:21 BST (UK)
We canít post many details from 1939 but there is a Doreen Webb in the indexes with a Raymund. Have you checked that entry?
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Tuesday 30 April 19 12:38 BST (UK)
@heywood. Yes, that's my grandfather and his mother.

I have no marriage for Webb/Udall. I can't find any marriage records for them at all, no matter which names I try.

When I put Doreen Webb into the search, I got a No Results message back.
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: jonw65 on Tuesday 30 April 19 14:04 BST (UK)
Haselbury, Dorset, 1931 electoral register (free index)
Raymond Carey Webb
Doreen Lucy Webb

There's a Webb death in Weston super Mare under two lots of first names?
June 1955 Weston 7c 263
Webb, Raymond C., age 63
Webb, Thomas H., age 63

Can't get either yet on new GRO index

1932
Raymond Carey Webb, of Hazelbury Bryan...summoned for using a motor vehicle, for which a license was not in force.
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: Dundee on Tuesday 30 April 19 15:32 BST (UK)
We canít post many details from 1939 but there is a Doreen Webb in the indexes with a Raymund. Have you checked that entry?

@heywood. Yes, that's my grandfather and his mother.

No it isn't.  You need to search for Doreen WEBB born 1906.  Only the fourth child is unredacted.

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 30 April 19 15:39 BST (UK)
Debra,
 
I was thinking that the reply was to my post re the births of Doreen and Michael not 1939 details.

Here is Doreenís death registration

July 1982 Poole, Dorset
Doreen Lucy Webb born 2 June 1906

Heywood
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: jonw65 on Tuesday 30 April 19 15:45 BST (UK)
Probably a red herring ;D
Eliza Carey, housekeeper to Henry Webb in Bedminster in 1891. I think they married in 1892
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WR4F-Q3Z

What was the occupation of your Mr Webb? we can see that in 1939!
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: avm228 on Tuesday 30 April 19 16:56 BST (UK)
Probably a red herring ;D
Eliza Carey, housekeeper to Henry Webb in Bedminster in 1891. I think they married in 1892
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WR4F-Q3Z

What was the occupation of your Mr Webb? we can see that in 1939!

They had children including a George, baptised in Bedminster in November 1893, but he may be the George Webb whose death aged 2 was registered in Bedminster, Mar qtr 1896.
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Tuesday 30 April 19 20:28 BST (UK)
@Jonw65.. Wow.! That's fantastic... Raymond Carey Webb... now that's a new name..   ;) I shall have to find him and see where it leads... Thank you.

Driving without a license... it figures...  ;D

@heywood.. Thank you for the death record... I'd always been told she died before I was born.. but I was 9 when she passed. :(

Thank you all, for all your help.  8)

Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Thursday 02 May 19 13:10 BST (UK)
Unfortunately.. Raymond Carey Webb appears to be yet another alias my great-grandfather used. As other than what has already been found, I can find no BMD records for anyone with that name, anywhere.  :(
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: trish1120 on Thursday 02 May 19 15:22 BST (UK)
Just bookmarking as I find this one fascinating :)
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Saturday 22 August 20 20:18 BST (UK)
An Update.... Thanks to @Jonw65, I discovered that Raymond Carey Webb was the name of choice, amongst all the others. Raymond Carey Webb is the name on my grandfather's birth certificate. Although that's not the name on his baptismal record. A Raymond Carey Webb registered to vote in 1931 in Poole, Dorset. Then there's the driving offence in 1932. In 1939 Raymond Carey Webb is in Parkstone, with a birth year of 1893.

So... going with Raymond Webb b.1893 I found a Raymond born in Brinkworth, Wiltshire. Who died in 1964 in Chippenham, Wiltshire. He married Daisy May Carey, who died in 1974 and had two children born 1922 and 1924. My grandfather was born in 1928, so there is a chance.

I'm not sure about the Raymond Charles Webb born in late 1892, who died in 1955, as my mother was born in 1952 and she says she remembers her grandfather at a much older age. These are the only two Raymond Webb's born around 1893.

Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: Girl Guide on Sunday 23 August 20 13:31 BST (UK)
Is this the marriage for your Raymond?

Marriages Jun 1918   
Carey    Daisy M    Webb    Malmesbury    5a   109   
Webb    Raymond    Carey    Malmesbury    5a   109

Living in Malmesbury in 1939, Raymond's birth year given as 1891.  Do you have any marriage certificate for your Raymond?  If so who is down as his father?
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Sunday 23 August 20 14:23 BST (UK)
@Girl Guide: Quite possibly.

That Raymond was actually born in 1893 in Brinkworth, Wiltshire. His parents were Frederick and Ellen. I'm leaning more towards him, with no other avenue to investigate other than whether he was a good man loyal to his wife or whether there was a possibility that he strayed and met my great grandmother and had 5 more children.



Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: Girl Guide on Sunday 23 August 20 16:42 BST (UK)
I'm a little puzzled as to why the 1955 deaths are on free bmd but not on the GRO website.  They have Percival James but not Raymond and Thomas.

Birth year works out as 1892 but 1891 if died before the actual birth date.

So the 1939 Raymond with Daisy in Malmesbury is a different one to the Raymond with Doreen in Poole?
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Sunday 23 August 20 17:13 BST (UK)
@Girl Guide.. It looks that way, yes... which leaves me right back at square one... because there is no other Raymond that it could be.

This going with the assumption that his name really is Raymond..  ???
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: Girl Guide on Sunday 23 August 20 17:22 BST (UK)
I did ask earlier, have you got his marriage certificate for his marriage to Daisy?  If so was Frederick down as the father?  Who were the witnesses?
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Sunday 23 August 20 20:35 BST (UK)
@Girl Guide,

As yet, no I don't... I sent off for it this afternoon..
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: Girl Guide on Sunday 23 August 20 20:39 BST (UK)
Ok, I shall be interested to hear what is on the cert when you get it.
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: jonw65 on Sunday 23 August 20 20:46 BST (UK)
I'm a little puzzled as to why the 1955 deaths are on free bmd but not on the GRO website. 

Me too!
Sorry if it was a Raymond Charles, and not the right person. We needed the full names from the new GRO index!
John
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Friday 11 September 20 19:21 BST (UK)
I've just received the birth certificate for my grandfather's younger brother, hoping to glean a little more information considering the mother's maiden name was wrong on the BMD record.

Father's name has been recorded as Thomas Raymond Webb, and mother's name as Doreen Nellie Webb, nee Siddons. Father's occupation is Ice Cream Salesman.  ???  She seems to be just as evasive as he is when it comes to the truth. The mystery continues....  ::)
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: johnhood on Tuesday 22 September 20 20:38 BST (UK)
Hi, I might have missed something in earlier posts but does this fit in at all.

Marriage Ramon G C J Webb & Evelyn Foote dq 1951 Blandford.

John
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Wednesday 23 September 20 10:25 BST (UK)
@Johnhood,

Yes, that's the marriage for my maternal grandparents... it's (Michael) Ramon G C J's father I'm searching for...

Alexa
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Wednesday 23 September 20 13:17 BST (UK)
Thanks to a very kind lady on the OPC Dorset site, I have a birth date of January 16th 1893 from the 1939 Directory and a death year of 1955 at Weston Super Mare, Somerset for Raymond Carey Webb. No birth place though.

Raymond Carey Webb is also the name on my great grandmother's death certificate, of her late husband. I've ordered his death certificate, but I'm not hopeful of anything more productive.

As there are no birth records for anyone named Raymond in early 1893, I started working on the Tom/Thomas Webb's for a lead... as yet, I'm fruitless.
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: johnhood on Wednesday 23 September 20 13:34 BST (UK)
Thanks to a very kind lady on the OPC Dorset site, I have a birth date of January 16th 1893 from the 1939 Directory and a death year of 1955 at Weston Super Mare, Somerset for Raymond Carey Webb. No birth place though.

Raymond Carey Webb is also the name on my great grandmother's death certificate, of her late husband. I've ordered his death certificate, but I'm not hopeful of anything more productive.

As there are no birth records for anyone named Raymond in early 1893, I started working on the Tom/Thomas Webb's for a lead... as yet, I'm fruitless.

I think birthdate should be 16th JUNE 1893

John
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: jonw65 on Wednesday 23 September 20 14:14 BST (UK)
Thanks to a very kind lady on the OPC Dorset site, I have a birth date of January 16th 1893 from the 1939 Directory and a death year of 1955 at Weston Super Mare, Somerset for Raymond Carey Webb.

I already flagged up the Weston Super Mare death.
But I thought your later post (Reply #13) indicated that you had got the cert and that it was a Raymond Charles?

I'm not sure about the Raymond Charles Webb born in late 1892, who died in 1955, as my mother was born in 1952 and she says she remembers her grandfather at a much older age.
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: Dundee on Thursday 24 September 20 05:17 BST (UK)
Here is a head scratcher for you.

Marriages Dec qtr 1915

SIDDONS,    Nellie M   
WEBB,    Thomas H   
Walsall    6b   1749

Births Sep qtr 1916   
WEBB, ARTHUR  BERNARD MUSGROVE (SIDDONS)     
GRO Reference: 1916  S Quarter in WALSALL  Volume 06B  Page 1241

There's a Webb death in Weston super Mare under two lots of first names?
June 1955 Weston 7c 263
Webb, Raymond C., age 63
Webb, Thomas H., age 63

I've just received the birth certificate for my grandfather's younger brother, hoping to glean a little more information considering the mother's maiden name was wrong on the BMD record.

Father's name has been recorded as Thomas Raymond Webb, and mother's name as Doreen Nellie Webb, nee Siddons. Father's occupation is Ice Cream Salesman.

The 1939 Register has Doreen's middle initials as 'E.M.' with an 'L' added later.  Nellie is a pet form of Ellen.  Doreen cannot be the same person as the Nellie SIDDONS who married in 1915 as she was only 9 years old then, but is the Thomas H. your Raymond?  Did he have two women at the same time,  your Doreen and his wife Nellie or were they for some reason pretending that Doreen and Nellie were the same person?

Nellie is in Walsall in 1939 and her surname was corrected at the time I think, not later changed.  Note that the household continues over two pages with other pages in between.

The children's births:

1928 Male (UDALL)  Bournemouth
1930 Female (UDALL) Sturminster
1932 Female (UDALL) Sturminster
1933 Male (SIDDONS) Poole (with Raymond and Doreen in 1939)
1938 Male (UDALL) Poole
1939 Male (SIDDONS) Poole
1942 Female (UDALL) Poole

Debra  :)








Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Thursday 24 September 20 08:46 BST (UK)
@Johnhood, duly noted. Jan, Jun... easily mistaken. Thank you so much for the new children too. I'd only looked previously for the five we knew about.

@jonw65, you did indeed, but because the middle name was Charles, and my mother was sure she remembered her grandfather after 1955, I kept that one on the back burner. She's currently in talks with the remaining aunt to try to see what, if anything she remembers.

@Dundee,  :o Thank you. I hadn't gone back that far with the marriages because of Doreen's age, and I've been looking at the Thomas's born in 1893 (going through them one at a time) and am yet to find this link. It's certainly a good match... Doreen would definitely be too young by 1915, and why on earth she'd take on his wife's name is beyond me, but this is the closest to finding out who he really is that I've gotten. The deaths were noted... but it turned out Raymond's middle name was Charles, and Carey could well be a shortening of it, but then we weren't entirely convinced his name was Raymond. And if your name is Thomas Henry(Harry), why would you use Raymond Carey..?

I'll certainly order the certificates and try to figure this one out.
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: avm228 on Thursday 24 September 20 09:02 BST (UK)
Are you saying you already have a Jun qtr 1955 Weston super Mare death certificate for a Raymond Charles Webb aged 63? If so, what other information does it give?
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: johnhood on Thursday 24 September 20 09:20 BST (UK)
Quote:

Marriages Dec qtr 1915

SIDDONS,    Nellie M   
WEBB,    Thomas H   
Walsall    6b   1749

Births Sep qtr 1916   
WEBB, ARTHUR  BERNARD MUSGROVE (SIDDONS)     
GRO Reference: 1916  S Quarter in WALSALL  Volume 06B  Page 1241

1901 census

Piece:   2703
Folio:   20
Page Number:   32
Household Schedule Number:   186
Household Members:   
Name   Age
Henry Siddons   42
Sophie Siddons   38
May S Siddons   16
Arthur M Siddons   14
Nellie M Siddons   10
George E Siddons   5

Cannot give details re 1939 but look for Arthur Siddons and see who is living with him.

John
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: johnhood on Thursday 24 September 20 09:26 BST (UK)
Arthur's death

Arthur Bernard M Webb d aged 75, born 14 Jul 1916
Death registered Apr 1992 Birmingham RD
Volume:   32

John

Edit , there is a probate record for Arthur as well.

Possible marriage
Arthur B M Webb m Jun qtr 1971 Dorothy R Lander Warley RD
Volume Number:   9d
Page Number:   724
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Thursday 24 September 20 10:55 BST (UK)
@avm228, No, I sent off for the 1955 Weston death certificate for Raymond C. Webb. To see who informed of the death and if it gives a clearer birth date.
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Thursday 24 September 20 10:58 BST (UK)
@Johnhood, yes, that's what I found, I also discovered Nellie Siddons middle name is Musgrove.

Nellie died in 1975 in Birmingham, she was born 18/09/1890 in Walsall, Staffs.

At the moment I'm working on Thomas Henry Webb b.1893 Windsor, Berkshire. He was in the Royal Naval Hospital in Gillingham, Kent in 1911, and I'm trying to find out why. What was happening in 1911 for him to be a patient there.?
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: avm228 on Thursday 24 September 20 10:59 BST (UK)
@avm228, No, I sent off for the 1955 Weston death certificate for Raymond C. Webb. To see who informed of the death and if it gives a clearer birth date.

Why are you saying the middle name was Charles then? I am not clear where that has come from,
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: jonw65 on Thursday 24 September 20 11:12 BST (UK)
For the Weston super Mare death, I might have taken a small punt on
WEBB, THOMAS  HAROLD     
Mother's Maiden Surname: RIDGE 
GRO Reference: 1892  S Quarter in WEST BROMWICH  Volume 06B  Page 791

Marriage June 1885 Aston
Ridge, Ruth Ann
Webb, William Bernard

1901 in Handsworth
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSQ5-C96

1911 in Handsworth
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWW4-Q3M

Only likely later event for Ruth
Death, Dec 1948 Weston 7c 252
Webb, Ruth Ann
Age 86 

Free index to 1939 Register
Ruth A Webb, born 1861, living Weston-Super-Mare M.B., Somerset
Address The Rock Highbury Road

Probably the wrong guy  ;D
But, interesting perhaps
Births Sep qtr 1916   
WEBB, ARTHUR  BERNARD MUSGROVE (SIDDONS) 
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Thursday 24 September 20 11:22 BST (UK)
@jonw65,

That's actually REALLY interesting. I have Thomas Harold on my list to investigate, and it does seem weird that if he was my great grandfather, living in Poole, Dorset, that he would have died in Weston S M... so he's definitely worth a good look at..
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Thursday 24 September 20 11:32 BST (UK)
@avm228,  I say Raymond Charles because during my research, I found a Raymond Charles Webb died in 1955, born in 1892, and the only Raymond who died in 1955 in Raymond C... so I'm assuming Raymond C is Raymond Charles.  I'm also assuming Carey is a shortening of the name Charles.

Alexa
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Thursday 24 September 20 11:59 BST (UK)
Is there a way to find out who witnesses were at a marriage.?

Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: Girl Guide on Thursday 24 September 20 12:16 BST (UK)
Unless you can find the marriage online somewhere, the only other option is to buy the certificate from the GRO.
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Thursday 24 September 20 12:36 BST (UK)
@Girl Guide,  Thank you. I had to go find my Mum & Dad's marriage certificate to make sure the witnesses were on it, so will be ordering a copy of Thomas and Nellie's marriage certificate. :)
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: JenB on Thursday 24 September 20 13:17 BST (UK)
Walsall Observer 9th October 1915.

Webb - Siddons

On October 2nd at the Congregational Church, Wednesbury Road, by the Rev W L T Merson, Thomas Harold, (2nd Lieutenant the Welsh Regiment) son of the late William Bernard Webb, Birmingham, and Mrs Webb, Weston, to Nellie, daughter of Mr and Mrs H Siddons, Springfield House, Walsall
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: jonw65 on Thursday 24 September 20 13:30 BST (UK)
Walsall Observer 9th October 1915.

Webb - Siddons

On October 2nd at the Congregational Church, Wednesbury Road, by the Rev W L T Merson, Thomas Harold, (2nd Lieutenant the Welsh regiment) son of the late William Bernard Webb, Birmingham, and Mrs Webb, Weston, to Nellie, daughter of Mr and Mrs H Siddons, Springfield House, Walsall

We love you Jen!

With the help of Dundee's quite brilliant work I think we might have cracked it.
John
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Thursday 24 September 20 15:29 BST (UK)
@JenB, :D I was just looking through newspaper archives... Fantastic job.!  ;D

I ordered the certificate anyway, but great to see there is a link and we have the right Thomas Webb.!

It's only taken 45 years across three branches of the family to track him down... and we did it.!! <3

My mother and grandmother are going to be delighted.
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb (SOLVED.!!)
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Thursday 24 September 20 15:46 BST (UK)
 ;D I am, quite honestly, delighted and deeply grateful to you all for the time, effort and amazing finds, as well as the brain storming. Not only do I now know who my great grandfather really was, I discovered there were also two other children to the family that no-one knew about.

 :-* :-* Thank you so much @Jonw65, @JenB, @Dundee, @heywood, @Girl Guide, @avm228, @Johnhood.

We should all be really proud of ourselves.  :D
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: JenB on Thursday 24 September 20 15:52 BST (UK)
I shouldn't be in that list, I only looked up the marriage Debra found, and you would have got the details anyway from the certificate.
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Thursday 24 September 20 16:02 BST (UK)
I shouldn't be in that list, I only looked up the marriage Debra found, and you would have got the details anyway from the certificate.

@JenB, which cinched it.! If you hadn't found that announcement naming family members, we'd still not be 100% sure until the marriage certificate came through - which could take up to 5 weeks.!! Now we know for definite that the right Thomas H Webb married Nellie Siddons, which means he IS my great grandfather.
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: heywood on Thursday 24 September 20 16:07 BST (UK)
I only had a very minor contribution but have been following and getting quite confused  :D

So glad to see it come together with some great research.
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: JenB on Thursday 24 September 20 16:25 BST (UK)
It will be interesting to see what the details are on Raymond/Thomas Webb's 1955 death certificate (I think you've sent for it?)
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: JenB on Thursday 24 September 20 16:37 BST (UK)
Walsall Observer 9th October 1915.

Webb - Siddons

On October 2nd at the Congregational Church, Wednesbury Road, by the Rev W L T Merson, Thomas Harold, (2nd Lieutenant the Welsh regiment) son of the late William Bernard Webb, Birmingham, and Mrs Webb, Weston, to Nellie, daughter of Mr and Mrs H Siddons, Springfield House, Walsall

His military papers are available from the National Archives, but, frustratingly, haven't been digitised  >:(
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1094236
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: johnhood on Thursday 24 September 20 16:41 BST (UK)
I have really enjoyed this post and would like to say to ALL who helped well done, great efforts.

Below details of his war record.

John

Thomas Harold
Last name   Webb
Rank   2Nd Lieutenant
Regiment   The Welsh Regiment
Year   1915
Archive   
The National Archives
Archive reference   WO 339/40342
Series   WO 339
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Thursday 24 September 20 17:13 BST (UK)
@JenB, as soon as it arrives, I'll let you all know what it says...

@Johnhood, that's what I was looking for. :) Even a temporary 2nd Lieutenant, is still a 2nd Lieutenant. I'm hoping to find a way to find out his Service number.
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: JenB on Thursday 24 September 20 17:55 BST (UK)
He's back to being Mr Webb in 1916.

Wallsall Observer 22 July 1916

Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: johnhood on Thursday 24 September 20 18:27 BST (UK)
He's back to being Mr Webb in 1916.

Wallsall Observer 22 July 1916

JenB, is that article on FindMyPast please.

John
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: johnhood on Thursday 24 September 20 19:21 BST (UK)
Your tree is going to be real fun now. It appears that Thomas Harold's father married 3 times, had 1 child with first wife, 3 children with his second and 4 with his 3rd wife of whom Thomas was one.

Happy researching.

John
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Thursday 24 September 20 20:49 BST (UK)
@Johnhood,

I've just discovered that... thanks friend... LOL  ;D

My family have always kept me busy in one way or another... I can't say they're boring... :)

Alexa
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: JenB on Friday 25 September 20 08:53 BST (UK)
Father's name has been recorded as Thomas Raymond Webb, and mother's name as Doreen Nellie Webb, nee Siddons. Father's occupation is Ice Cream Salesman.  ??? 

Who was the informant on this certificate?
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: heywood on Friday 25 September 20 09:20 BST (UK)
This links to JenBís post

Debra posted these children :

The children's births:

1928 Male (UDALL)  Bournemouth
1930 Female (UDALL) Sturminster
1932 Female (UDALL) Sturminster
1933 Male (SIDDONS) Poole (with Raymond and Doreen in 1939)
1938 Male (UDALL) Poole
1939 Male (SIDDONS) Poole
1942 Female (UDALL) Poole


As I said, I have followed and found it confusing. I am sure I must have missed this but why is a Siddons child with Doreen?  Is Doreen the mother of all these above?
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: JenB on Friday 25 September 20 09:27 BST (UK)
Is Doreen the mother of all these above?

I think that must be the case.

As you suspect, that's why I asked who registered the birth with the mother's name given as Doreen Nellie Webb Siddons  :-\  If it was Raymond, perhaps he'd had had too much to drink that day.



Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Friday 25 September 20 10:27 BST (UK)
@JenB, @heywood,

Doreen registered the births where her maiden name was recorded as Siddons. She registered herself as Doreen Nellie Webb, and her 'husband' as Thomas Raymond Webb.

She used the name of her 'husband's' wife, Nellie M Siddons, who I'm assuming he hadn't divorced before getting together with Doreen. Although Doreen and Raymond were never married.
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: heywood on Friday 25 September 20 13:41 BST (UK)
Thanks.
So the other births were registered with the mother as Doreen Udall - was that by Doreen too?
Interesting...
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: JenB on Friday 25 September 20 13:52 BST (UK)
Interesting to note that when Nellie's father died in 1944, it was specified on the probate index that Nellie was 'the wife of Thomas Webb'.
Or was that standard wording?

Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Friday 25 September 20 21:02 BST (UK)
@heywood,

I can only imagine that either Raymond registered the first three, or he went with Doreen when she did, because those births were registered with Doreen Lucy Udall as mother, and Raymond Carey Webb as father.
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Friday 25 September 20 21:06 BST (UK)
@JenB,

Or perhaps he went back to her around that time what with her inheriting a fortune.. he wasn't with Doreen by 1948..
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: JenB on Friday 25 September 20 22:04 BST (UK)
@JenB,

Or perhaps he went back to her around that time what with her inheriting a fortune.. he wasn't with Doreen by 1948..

Who inherited a fortune? Youíve lost me.
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: Mckha489 on Friday 25 September 20 22:09 BST (UK)
Nellie?

 Your reply #62

Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: JenB on Friday 25 September 20 22:11 BST (UK)
@heywood,

I can only imagine that either Raymond registered the first three, or he went with Doreen when she did, because those births were registered with Doreen Lucy Udall as mother, and Raymond Carey Webb as father.

Have you actually got the first three certificates?
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Sunday 27 September 20 08:38 BST (UK)
@JenB,

Yes... mother is registered as Doreen Lucy Webb, nee Udall and father as Raymond Carey Webb. The fourth one states Doreen Nellie Webb, nee Siddons and Thomas Raymond Webb as father. I'm still waiting on the last three...
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: heywood on Sunday 27 September 20 09:26 BST (UK)
Nellie?

 Your reply #62

Nellie and Arthur were granted the administration of the estate, not necessarily inheriting a fortune.
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: JenB on Sunday 27 September 20 09:33 BST (UK)
Yes... mother is registered as Doreen Lucy Webb, nee Udall and father as Raymond Carey Webb.

But who was the informant?
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Sunday 27 September 20 10:13 BST (UK)
@JenB,

Good question, I had to check, because I didn't take much notice of who registered the births...  ::)

He did. He registered them all. He registered Doreen as Siddons and himself as Thomas Raymond...  ???
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: heywood on Sunday 27 September 20 10:23 BST (UK)
Apologies if this has been answered. I am trying to fit things together   ;)
Is this correct?

Ruth A Webb (Thomas Haroldís mother) died in Weston Super Mare in 1948.
She can be seen in 1939 register.

Raymond C Webb died 1955.

I just wondered who reported Raymondís death and is the address, by any chance, the same as Ruthís in 1939?
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: JenB on Sunday 27 September 20 11:48 BST (UK)
@JenB,

Good question, I had to check, because I didn't take much notice of who registered the births...  ::)

He did. He registered them all. He registered Doreen as Siddons and himself as Thomas Raymond...  ???

Thatís not what you said earlier


Doreen registered the births where her maiden name was recorded as Siddons. She registered herself as Doreen Nellie Webb, and her 'husband' as Thomas Raymond Webb.

She used the name of her 'husband's' wife, Nellie M Siddons, who I'm assuming he hadn't divorced before getting together with Doreen. Although Doreen and Raymond were never married.

Also in reply#68 you said you were still waiting for three certificates.

Itís really difficult to help when we get contradictory replies  :-\
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Sunday 27 September 20 12:09 BST (UK)
@heywood,

That's a certificate I'm still waiting for... I'll let you know what it says when I receive it.
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: heywood on Sunday 27 September 20 12:14 BST (UK)
Thatís great - looking forward to it  :)
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Sunday 27 September 20 12:16 BST (UK)
@JenB,

Apologies... I rather assumed that with Raymond being the informant on Michael, Judith, Noel and David's birth certificate's, he would also have registered Geoffrey and the stillbirth's too, also assuming that Adrian C b.1938 was a stillbirth.

I had also assumed that Doreen registered the children, when the informant registered with their initials.. R C looked a lot like D L in the cursive used. Upon checking it again on the last certificate I received, I saw it was R C, so checked the other certificates.

Sorry.
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: Girl Guide on Sunday 27 September 20 12:29 BST (UK)
It is unlikely that Adrian was a stillbirth as the public have no access to those records.  If a child is born alive even if they die a few minutes later, the birth will be registered.

Births Sep 1938 
Webb    Adrian C    Udall    Poole    5a   350

GRO have his death with a slightly different surname

CAREY-WEBB, ADRIAN  CHRISTOPHER     0 
GRO Reference: 1938  S Quarter in POOLE  Volume 05A  Page 250
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Sunday 27 September 20 12:48 BST (UK)
@Girl Guide,

Thank you :)  I did wonder if he was as he was named, but his sister b.1942 wasn't... leading me to wonder why she wasn't named, and if maybe they were stillborn. 

Seems they both died quite quickly after birth.
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: JenB on Sunday 27 September 20 12:52 BST (UK)
Sister's death is registered the same as her birth as 'Webb female', 3rd q 1942, Poole 5a, 298.
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Saturday 10 October 20 13:22 BST (UK)
@heywood,

Death Certificate received today for Raymond C. Webb, died 1955 at Weston Super Mare.

Details as follows: Tenth May 1955, Shortlands, Sand Road, Wedmore.

Raymond Caradine (otherwise Thomas Harold) WEBB

Male

Aged 63 Years

Died from Cardiac Failure, Cor Pulmonale, Emphysema

Informant is Elspeth Webb, present at the death.


I'm wondering who Elspeth Webb is, as his daughter Judy has that name too.

Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: heywood on Saturday 10 October 20 13:54 BST (UK)
Thank you. Does it not give any relationship re Elspeth?

The only one I can see in Somerset is a death:
Elspeth Webb died April 1984 West Super Mare.

Her birth date is given as 23rd April 1894

I wonder if she was Raymond/Thomasí partner?
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: jonw65 on Saturday 10 October 20 16:32 BST (UK)
Tenth May 1955, Shortlands, Sand Road, Wedmore.

Raymond Caradine (otherwise Thomas Harold) WEBB

No wonder we couldn't find the death on the GRO site!
Name: CARADINE, RAYMOND       
Age at Death (in years): 63 
GRO Reference: 1955  J Quarter in WESTON-SUPER-MARE  Volume 07C  Page 263
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: jonw65 on Saturday 10 October 20 16:40 BST (UK)
The only one I can see in Somerset is a death:
Elspeth Webb died April 1984 West Super Mare.

Her birth date is given as 23rd April 1894

I wonder if she was Raymond/Thomasí partner?

Quite likely!
And her death is also indexed under two names ;)
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: jonw65 on Saturday 10 October 20 17:04 BST (UK)
There's a news story in both the Wells Journal and the Cheddar Valley Gazette, 12 Dec 1958, about Mrs. Elspeth Webb, a widow, of Shortlands, Wedmore.
Was she said to be 50? Fined for a driving offence.

And her death is also indexed under two names

The other name is Badhwar
Possibility for her in Worthing in the free index to the 1939 Register.

Marriage?
March 1925 Steyning 2b 500
Badhwar, Fateh C - spouse Crawford
Crawford, Elspeth F. - spouse Badhwar

Is Mr Badhwar the guy with a wikipedia entry?
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Sunday 11 October 20 07:32 BST (UK)
@Heywood,

Unfortunately, it doesn't, it just lists her as the informant.

@JonW65, Interesting to read about Elspeth, another woman to take his name and not be married to him.

Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: johnhood on Sunday 11 October 20 10:04 BST (UK)
Small contribution from me,

Marriages Sep 1880   (>99%)
BOULTON    Jane Sarah        St. Saviour    1d   71   
Crawford    William Henry        St. Saviour    1d   71    
Downing    Emily Annie        St. Saviour    1d   71   
Sheaff    Charles Roots        St. Saviour    1d   71   


CRAWFORD, ELSPETH  FANNY     DOWNING 
GRO Reference: 1895  J Quarter in KINGSTON ON THAMES  Volume 02A  Page 359

1901
Piece:   828
Folio:   161
Page Number:   11
Household Schedule Number:   71

John

added: easy to find in 1911.
Title: Re: Brick Wall: Thomas Webb
Post by: TheOnlyRogueAngel on Sunday 11 October 20 14:03 BST (UK)
@Jonw65,

Now that is interesting... an OBE and an MBE...


@Johnhood,

Thank you. :)