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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: battista on Wednesday 01 May 19 10:14 BST (UK)
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I'm trying to find out more details about the birthplace of my grandmother. She came from County Cork, Ireland to Australia when she was young with her parents. When she was a young adult, she moved to New Zealand. I'm attempting to find as much information as I possibly can about this family, so I have more to work with in my Irish record searches.
Given names: Eileen Gertrude St. Aubyn
Surname: Burke
Birth: approx. 1858, County Cork, Ireland (birthplace found in obituary and death certificate)
Marriage: 23rd of December 1884, St. Thomas Church [illegible], Petersham, New South Wales, Australia
Husband: Henry John Murray (born in New Zealand)
Death: 4th of September 1926, Christchurch, New Zealand
Father: John St. Aubyn Burke
Father's occupation: Squatter (as far as I know, this is an Aussie specific profession)
Mother: Stella Chester
Moved to Autralia: Unknown, "The daughter of an Army officer, Mrs Murray was born in County Cork, Ireland, and at an early age came with her family to Australia." - Obituary
Moved to New Zealand: A few years prior to 1884 "a few years after her arrival [in NZ] she married..." - Obituary
Not known whether Eileen had any siblings, can't find a mention of any.
Her marriage record: https://i.imgur.com/bZEQHfH.png
Her death certificate: https://drive.google.com/file/d/13RAKhJJuQi6RImoktYAM_S9ihDdywuiv/view?usp=sharing
Her son's enlistment paper: https://i.imgur.com/058nZam.jpg
Obituary: https://i.imgur.com/DNPm4QZ.jpg
The lady transcribing the original record for the death certificate got a few relationship(s) section wrong, she was new and in training. Why they let her do such an old record, I'm not sure...
I looked on Trove to try and find some entries for the family, it doesn't seem as easy to use or as comprehensive as the NZ equivalent PapersPast (which I'm more familiar with). I couldn't locate any information on a "St Aubyn Burke" family, couldn't seem to find a John/Eileen/Stella St Aubyn/Burke record of arrival. I tried to see if there was a newspaper entry for Eileen's marriage to Henry Murray in 1884, no luck there either.
Looked for the death records of John/Stella St Aubyn/Burke in all the AUS states that would let me search for them. No John St Aubyn Burke, but plenty John Burkes. Unfortunately, couldn't find any relevant newspaper entries for a John or Stella Burke death. John Burke is a pretty common name, I suppose Stella is less so.
I thought if John St Aubyn Burke was a squatter, there might be some records of a farm? Not sure where to locate that.
Unsure of where to go from here really. I'm not sure whether Trove is the definitive location for Aussie Newspapers, nor where else I could look for information on this family.
There's another thread about this in the Ireland board, I posted a while ago: https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=810585.0
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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=810585.msg6706710#msg6706710
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I think St Thomas Church, Petersham NSW would be a Roman Catholic ceremony. ....
:) do you have the witness names? Perhaps family members.
:) what info is recorded on the marriage cert about the bride and her parents ..... are there some blanks or has the NSW BDM any endorsement notes showing they have reconciled their registry with the Church register/s
If you dont have the cert, dont rush off to order it just yet.
JM
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I think St Thomas Church, Petersham NSW would be a Roman Catholic ceremony. ....
:) do you have the witness names? Perhaps family members.
:) what info is recorded on the marriage cert about the bride and her parents ..... are there some blanks or has the NSW BDM any endorsement notes showing they have reconciled their registry with the Church register/s
If you dont have the cert, dont rush off to order it just yet.
JM
Thanks JM for the response.
Yes that is an RC marriage.
Her NSW marriage cert is here: https://m.imgur.com/bZEQHfH
Witnesses were J. Murray and E. B. Ward (I believe, hard to read the surname). John Murray is Henry's father. The other witness I'm unsure of.
All the details from my original post are from the marriage, death, obituary and her son's enlistment papers. Only her parents names and father's occupation is present. I'm not sure what endorsement notes are.
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.....
Thanks JM for the response.
Yes that is an RC marriage.
Her NSW marriage cert is here: https://m.imgur.com/bZEQHfH
Witnesses were J. Murray and E. B. Ward (I believe, hard to read the surname). John Murray is Henry's father. The other witness I'm unsure of.
All the details from my original post are from the marriage, death, obituary and her son's enlistment papers. Only her parents names and father's occupation is present. I'm not sure what endorsement notes are.
Thanks, now I am on my desktop computer (instead of e-reader).
I can see the image of the m.c.
The word is Rectory (St Thomas Church Rectory)
The endorsement notes show that NSW BDM has reconciled the information in columns 7, 9 and 10 with the Church Registers .... but NOT column 5 ... perhaps that was recorded in a different church register. Most denominations used two or more registers and stored them separately (fire, flood, safe keeping etc). So column 7 is 'age' and '9' is parents and '10' is parents occupations. That information was NOT sent through to NSW BDM at the time the clergy transmitted the information. And NSW BDM commenced the reconciliation process in around 1911 and it stopped due to WWI, and basically has not ever been finalised. So you are fortunate that at least columns 7, 9 and 10 are on the document.
I will have a close look at my offline NSW resources in the morning and if I can help further I will.
Trove is a fantastic resource, but it does have funding issues, and of course it covers the newspapers from across the entire continent and then some, and basically in the 19th century it covers SIX colonies whereas NZ was just one colony. But I do agree that Papers Past is a great resource and its keyword function is easy and comfortable to use.
JM
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I see the first witness as J. Murray WHITE.
Second E B WARD
Sue
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Yes, I agree with Sue, that's WHITE as the surname for the first witness. The endorsement notes are in the right hand margin. I recognise the wording and initials and etc in the endorsement as typical for that style of endorsement.
JM
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SQUATTER
I think you will find that Squatter in the sense of an occupation may well have been used in several of the colonies, including NZ ... perhaps as an alternative word to 'pastoralist' ... Occupying land for farming pursuits in NSW has a long history of political intrigue and poor administrative processes particularly in the mid 19th century. There were land reforms in the 1860s to try to provide better processes, but squatting on land was one way to gain occupancy.
The marriage cert is first hand information, but it does not give any birthplace. Have you considered contacting the Roman Catholic Diocese for Sydney to see if they have the original parish register which will likely give ALL the details that Eileen provided to the clergy when marrying.... including her baptism info .... although it was a marriage in the Rectory rather than in the main church building...
https://www.sydneycatholic.org/
Re her father ... the obit for Eileen mentions he was in the military.... perhaps it was that service that brought the family to NSW? The British military provided regiments etc to protect their colonies in the Antipodes ... stationed them in Sydney NSW to protect not just NSW but the British interests in the South Seas ... including Fiji, NZ, Qld, Vic, Tas, etc etc etc So, have you the details for his military service ... that may help you move back to generations earlier ...
JM
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Thanks Sue for the transcription, yea I would agree with those two names. If it's J Murray White, I have no clue who that is (other than simply John Murray).
Thanks @majm. RE: RC sydney No I haven't, I was going to contact them, but was told (can't remember who) they wouldn't have anything of interest that wasn't already on the marriage record. It sounds like there's a chance though, so I'll send them an email.
Quote from my thread in the Ireland section, RE army record of John Burke.
Source Gro Regimental Birth Indices (1761 To 1924)
Archive reference REG1
Record set British Armed Forces And Overseas Births And Baptisms
First name(s) John
Sex Male
Last name Burke
Birth year 1828
Regiment 74th Foot
Type Armed Forces
Country Ireland
Place Cork
Page 44
Archive
General Register Office
Record's year range 1828
Volume 1304
Line number 102
Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers)
Subcategory Civil Births
Collections from Great Britain, UK Other
There's another one with the same details, but on page 48 instead of 44. Used findmypast for that, not sure if that's the best one to use for these records? Too bad John Burke is such a common name, it's hard to figure out who is who. This one would've been 30 when Eileen was born.
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The endorsement notes show that NSW BDM has reconciled the information in columns 7, 9 and 10 with the Church Registers .... but NOT column 5 ... perhaps that was recorded in a different church register. Most denominations used two or more registers and stored them separately (fire, flood, safe keeping etc). So column 7 is 'age' and '9' is parents and '10' is parents occupations. That information was NOT sent through to NSW BDM at the time the clergy transmitted the information. And NSW BDM commenced the reconciliation process in around 1911 and it stopped due to WWI, and basically has not ever been finalised. So you are fortunate that at least columns 7, 9 and 10 are on the document.
That's very interesting, thank you for that info! Where can I read more about this?
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A Joseph Bernard MURRAY-WHITE may have been a Sydney Solicitor, born Bathurst NSW. If so, a tragic death in 1913. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/111197869 Bathurst Times 13 Aug 1913.
JM
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The endorsement notes show that NSW BDM has reconciled the information in columns 7, 9 and 10 with the Church Registers .... but NOT column 5 ... perhaps that was recorded in a different church register. Most denominations used two or more registers and stored them separately (fire, flood, safe keeping etc). So column 7 is 'age' and '9' is parents and '10' is parents occupations. That information was NOT sent through to NSW BDM at the time the clergy transmitted the information. And NSW BDM commenced the reconciliation process in around 1911 and it stopped due to WWI, and basically has not ever been finalised. So you are fortunate that at least columns 7, 9 and 10 are on the document.
That's very interesting, thank you for that info! Where can I read more about this?
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=546609.0
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Some aspects of this sequence of events are a little odd.
I feel the details of the obituary may be inaccurate.
According to the MC, the usual home of both parties was Christchurch.
1877 Henry MURRAY ,a clerk Christchurch in the Town Clerk's office.
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/GLOBE18770207.2.12
1884, both parties have left Christchurch, and marry in Sydney where neither of the bride's parents appear to be witnesses. Instead, one is a local solicitor.
I make no sightings of either of Eileen's parents in NZ or Australia and note father's occupation is squatter, with no reference to a military connection in 1884. Why would he squat? Wasn't there an army allowance. Did he have experience on the land?
Later Electoral Roll listings for the MURRAYs show them back in Christchurch and Henry seems to be still in his same job at the Town Clerk's office as a clerk. The first birth to the couple is in NZ, 2 or 3 years after the wedding.
???
Sue
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@sparrett, as far as I'm aware Henry Murray was born in Christchurch and his parents John and Frances Murray died there.
Henry Murray's obit: https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP19250520.2.97?query=Henry%20Murray&phrase=2&start_date=01-01-1925&end_date=31-12-1925&snippet=true
I suppose Eileen moved to NZ, met Henry, they both went back to NSW to marry with her family. Strange that neither of their parents are witnesses.
Thanks for the further input Sue, those are certainly points to ponder on.
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Is anyone able to read the officiating minister? (https://i.imgur.com/bZEQHfH.png) I see J. M. Ga....
Would that name be the minister from St Thomas?
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Ok, I've sent an email to the Roman Catholic Diocese for Sydney, as well as an email to St. Thomas Lewisham, which I hope is the same one. Just looking at a map, Lewisham is right next to Petersham, so I figured there's a good chance they are the same church.
@majm The solicitor death is very sad. "NSW historic marriage certificates with blanks" is extremely useful. I'm always surprised with the very extensive posts by RootsChat members which seem to cover every topic I come across. What a great resource. Thanks for that majm ;D
There's also this on Trove for St. Thomas Petersham: https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/168798344?q&versionId=183994348 Only goes to 1870 for marriages though.
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Yes, Lewisham and Petersham as suburbs are right next door to each other. Petersham the suburb is within the then larger district of Petersham .... which in the 1800s included Lewisham and several other nearby suburbs... The NSW BDM district of Petersham was similar but slightly different from Petersham the NSW Land Titles district. Each of the various NSW colonial government departments had their own defined geographical areas, and in only a few cases did the boundaries actually match up. Then the various denominations had their own ways of defining their areas too... so a C of E parish may not line up with an RC parish etc etc....
If the family came from Ireland as part of a military household, it would have needed to have arrived prior to about 1870. British regiments were on tour to the colonies until then. Victoria Barracks, in Paddington Sydney would be the main H.Q. and of course the Royal Navy had a China station, an East Indies Station as well as one policing NZ and Australian waters (Australian Squadron) from 1859 until well into the 1900s,
JM
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NSW Archives Index to Squatters and Graziers
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/squatters-and-graziers-index
This is an index to holders of depasturing licences and others who were occupying Crown land beyond the Nineteen Counties, and who were visited by the Commissioners of Crown Lands. We have titled this Index Squatters and Graziers, the formal title is: Index to Itineraries and returns of Commissioners of Crown Lands, 1837-49
There's a John BURKE listed there, but for 1839 ::) I am sure that there's a comma missing in that index, John LAMBIE, Murray and St Vincent (Murray and St Vincent being counties in NSW) and John LAMBIE Esq being the Commissioner for Crown Lands... BUT that is likely to be an aside, that John Burke (1839-40) would be TOO EARLY to NSW for Eileen's birth was in Cork, Ireland.
JM
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I suppose Eileen moved to NZ, met Henry, they both went back to NSW to marry with her family. Strange that neither of their parents are witnesses.
Thanks for the further input Sue, those are certainly points to ponder on.
Apart from the obituary mention of her parents, can you suggest any definite pointers to Eileen's parents being in Australia?
As I mentioned, there may well be errors in obit info. The journalist relies on members of family to create the tribute. They can be misinformed on many counts.
Sue
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Re: British Regiments in the Colonies
remember that in the 1840s and 1850s some were sent across the Tasman to engage in the wars there. Many of the officers and men remained in these colonies after their tours concluded. For example, 58th Regiment (the Black Cuffs)
to NZ from Sydney NSW in 1845, and they stayed until November 1858
over 300 elected to settle in NZ
The regiments colours are in the Auckland War Memorial Museum. (One of my military family lines goes to the 58th and the movement across from Sydney to NZ :D)
Sue's comments about those obits ... as usual, spot on... :D One of my still living very elderly rellies worked for many years as a reporter with the then Cumberland Press in Parramatta NSW. He still tells the story of a highly respected egg farmer from the then rural area of Blacktown. The info was provided by one of the egg farmer's adult sons... It was not ever published ... too many questionable matters ... not one paragraph was recoverable by the sub editor ... red penned and if it had gone to print the headline could have been in trouble too...
JM
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Just a sample ... sorry I have no further spare moments at the moment... the surname BURKE is prone to spelling variations, and I have only skimmed across some of my hardcopy resources. I peeked at the online Grevilles 1872 :) for a start point :) many others by that name, but I chose five who likely were farmers (ie possibly 'squatters', waiting for the settlement of any conditional purchases under some land reforms, including waiting for surveyors to survey a selection upon which they were squatting, :D http://www.family.joint.net.au/index.php?mid=1&cid=296 )
Grevilles PO directory 1872
BURKE John farmer Ousdale Appin
BURKE John jun. farmer Slack's Ck. Cooma
BURKE John sen. farmer Slack's Ck. Cooma
BURKE John farmer --- Coraki
BURKE John --- Glenwood Gininderra
NSW Electoral Rolls 1870 :
NARRELLAN
Campbelltown Police District
John BURKE, Ousedale, freehold, near Appin
MONARO
Cooma Police District
John BURKE, freehold Nimmitabel
John BURKE, residence Bredbo
HASTINGS
MANNING DISTRICT,
John BURKE, residence, Cundletown
QUEANBEYAN
John BURK (JM notes, no E on printed roll) residence, Glenwood.
These Electoral rolls were compiled by the local police, under direction of a Police magistrate. NO forms, all verbal information
university spelling qualifications was not a requirement.
JM
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Ah ok, yea I figured Lewisham would've been part of Petersham at that time.
Eileen was born about 1858, so it's certainly possible that if they did move to Australia, it was prior to 1870.
Hmm, yes you're right John Burke for 1839 would be quite a bit too early. Too bad that index only goes to 1849.
Once again, thanks for all the info @majm. All of this is very interesting, and certainly helpful in figuring out why the family may have come to Australia.
@sparrett Yes, obit, death certificates etc. are on the less accurate side. The only other pointers (but not definite) that her parents came to Australia is the NSW marriage certificate. Squatter isn't an occupation in Ireland, and I've only ever seen it used in Australia and less commonly in New Zealand. I've looked through PapersPast and NZ BDM Historical and can't find the parents there. Stella Burke comes up with 0 results in the appropriate time frame, plenty of John Burkes, but nothing to indicate any of them are Eileen's parents. I checked to see if there was a record of an Eileen Burke born in NZ 1858 (+/- 10 yrs), I looked through all the Burke/Bourke/Burk/Birk/Birke births and there was no Eileen, Stella or John (or anything similar to those names) present in child, mother, father names. A month ago tried to find an Eileen Burke born in any of the Australian BDM state sites, couldn't find a record that would match her.
"Facts" and their sources
Born in Ireland: Death certificate, obituary, Bernard Murray enlistment paper (her son) (circumstantial: surname is Burke)
She lived in Australia/Parents lived there: Obituary (circumstantial: marriage cert is from NSW)
So the only record I have of Eileen that she gave information herself is the NSW marriage certificate. Unfortunately, all that has is her parents names, where she currently lives and the fathers' occupations. Both those facts don't have any definitive solid sources.
I guess the best bet at the moment is the original catholic marriage record. Hopefully, that names a more specific birthplace.
What information would one typically find in the church records? Is there an example available somewhere?
Thanks for pointing that out @sparrett, it could be that both the birthplace and her parents living in Australia is wrong. I've got nothing else to work with at the moment though, so hopefully, I can get the church record.
Did a search on FreeBMD Eileen Burke 1858 +/- 5, just to see whether there'd be a match. Nothing. A few for Emily and Ella. Not really enough information at the moment to be able to identify where she came from. I was hoping the St Aubyn Burke would make things easier to narrow down, but there doesn't seem to be any other records of someone with that name.
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Your comment about the death record transcription, 1926, that you have posted here -
"..The lady transcribing the original record for the death certificate got a few relationship(s) section wrong, she was new and in training. Why they let her do such an old record, I'm not sure..."
Are you just speaking generally here about the transcription, or did you have reason to return to BDM about death certificate?
Can you be specific about the relationship errors please ......
Eileen Gertrude is 26 years old at marriage, 1884.......born ~ 1858
Eileen Gertrude is 75 years old at death, 1926.....born ~ 1851.
Who is the informant for this death record. Ages recorded at death can be unreliable.
The marriage certificate has St Thomas Church Vestry. They are not married before the church altar. That would mean that one of the couple is not Catholic, and the priest would be ensure that it was recorded as such.
I think that they have given Christchurch as "usual residence" because that is their intended residence. Eileen has not been in NZ before her marriage.
BDM NZ births
1886/11634 MURRAY Henry St Aubyn
parents Eileen Gertrude St Aubyn / Henry
1887/11462 MURRAY Stella Frances Eileen
parents Eileen Gertrude St Aubyn / Henry
1891/7257 MURRAY Bernard Percival
parents Eileen Gertrude St Aubyn / Henry
Henry would be named for his father, and St Aubyn for mother's family
Stella would be named for maternal grandmother, paternal grandmother and mother
Bernard is named for ........who?......Bernard sounds very Irish Catholic.....possibly a close male relative?.....brother?
Percival might be a family name rather than given name eg PERCEVAL, PERCIVAL etc.
When given the opportunity to perpetuate family names, Eileen does not include John, or BURKE or CHESTER. St Aubyn is more important to Eileen than is BURKE.
Obviously, if there were more births you might see more possibilities.
WW1 AIF
Henry St Aubyn Wainwright MURRAY applied for Commission 5 Nov 1915, Brisbane, #9431, with father Henry as next-of-kin. Front page has notation " Historian 1/10/41"
Have a look at the WW1 file....looks like WAINWRIGHT to me. Another name to ponder.
Why is Henry in Brisbane in 1915?
BDM QLD marriage
916 B18566 Henry St.Aubyn MURRAY marr. Ismena Nola SINNIS
Queensland Figaro 6 May 1916
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/84400241?
...marriage notice......
I think Eileen Gertrude BURKE might have been rather creative about her origins...and her age?
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Re church records for marriages in NSW ... to 1856 (commencement of civil registration) .... family history purposes - SCANT ... so perhaps name of ship of arrival, perhaps status (spinster/widow but the definition of either was likely very different from 21st century eyes), abode, MAYBE ... age, and occasionally name of father, or perhaps even name of person giving consent ...
From 1856 ... the legislation required very very detailed info.... the legislation was NOT enforced, there was a huge political problem over decades ... resolved in the mid 1890s... so the clergy collected all the huge info, BUT did not forward it to the Registrar General, instead sent the Reg Gen a summary.... which did NOT include any info in the Reg Gen's columns 5, 7, 9, 10. (birthplace, age, parents, father's occupation).
Not until about 1900 did it become important to note if any parent was known to be deceased.
So church records (any denomination) were never recognised as 'public property', they are Church records. But there is a fine set of digitised church records (C of E) covering from mid 1820s until well into the 20th century, available via live links within RChat's NSW Resources Board. Whoever sent those links through to our then Global Moderator has provided the best NSW resource ever.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/australia-resources-offers/
then to
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0
then to reply #2 and scroll through to the
Baptisms, Marriages, Burials, Christ Church Cathedral, Newcastle
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606066769147/ 1820 1899 Family Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605008173551/ 1826 1837 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157604433014652/ 1837 1838 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605132739200/ 1839 1861 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605674610949/ 1856 1868 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605785759029/ 1869 1885 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605802132868/ 1885 1897 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606197590347/ 1899 1913 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605928662968/ 1913 1914 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606308436455/ 1914 1916 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606323070651/ 1916 1918 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606450662513/ 1918 1929 Marriage Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606952230042/ 1929 1936 Marriages Register
JM
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Yes, one of the two were not RC, that's why the marriage was Rectory/Vestry. One was RC. Have you located Henry's NZ birth/baptism...
Yes, the age of the bride should be on the Church record in that era. The reconciliation process undertaken by NSW BDM Reg Gen in the 1910-1915 era sometimes needed to consult FIVE registers to get all the details. So some clergy in some denominations were diligent (overly so perhaps) and some were quite remiss in their administrative tasks.... :D But, the ages of the parties should be on the church record, and it should be first hand, so as family historians you could start to consider if Eileen's info on say the NZ birth certs for her children would be reliable/consistent etc....
Re the NZ transcription .... and your comments about the transcriber .... have you obtained the actual NZ BDM printout .... these are usually very detailed (better than the d.c. itself) and there's an entire board here at RChat dedicated to deciphering handwriting....
JM
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Your comment about the death record transcription, 1926, that you have posted here -
"..The lady transcribing the original record for the death certificate got a few relationship(s) section wrong, she was new and in training. Why they let her do such an old record, I'm not sure..."
Are you just speaking generally here about the transcription, or did you have reason to return to BDM about death certificate?
Can you be specific about the relationship errors please ......
Eileen Gertrude is 26 years old at marriage, 1884.......born ~ 1858
Eileen Gertrude is 75 years old at death, 1926.....born ~ 1851.
Who is the informant for this death record. Ages recorded at death can be unreliable.
When I ordered the Death Certificate in person, the lady said she had to transcribe it from the original scanned record, onto a new death certificate. She took about 1 hour and 20 minutes to do it, they were showing her how for the first 10, then the supervisor had to leave. She didn't seem like she knew what she was doing. When she finally printed it, she asked me to check the details because she had a hard time reading the record. I was already late (I didn't think it would take so long), so I quickly scanned the names, and left. After further inspection at home, I did notice she was 75 years old at death (approx. 1851 birth), 39 at marriage vs 26. The last detail on the marriage cert was Age (if living), firstly, her husband was dead, secondly, I'm not sure if that's supposed to mean age at marriage for husband or age of husband if living. Either way, it's wrong. I don't know whether the errors are from the transcription or the informant, maybe even a mix of both.
I don't see an informant on the death certificate? I know for all the English certificates I have, the informant is named.
I requested the BDM printout too, I thought she did print it out as she gave the certificate to me in an envelope. Since I was in a rush, I left without checking. I checked the receipt and she didn't charge me for it, so I didn't further pursue that.
I have a printout of another ancestors NZ bdm death record, I didn't really see much information on there that wouldn't be present on a death certificate?
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Wikipedia on British regiments in NSW to 1870
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_Army_regiments_that_served_in_Australia_between_1810_and_1870
Digger history
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-conflicts-periods/other/british_army-in-aust.htm
Public Records Victoria
https://guides.slv.vic.gov.au/colonialforces/imperialforces
National library of Australia
https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/38309821?q&versionId=50747325
This book may well be available in NZ or as an e-book
The British Army in Australia 1788-1870: index to personnel by James Hugh DONOHOE
RED POST - if you check the various posts on RChat's NZ board, you will notice a consistent comment to get the PRINTOUT ... likely it depends on the era, but I have a several NSW born ancestors who died in NZ ... the printout works best for me from late 1800s until at least mid 1980s...
JM
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"Age and date of birth" on the d.c. is her then age, - her age at death. :D
The print out is likely to be an image of the actual document that the cert was transcribed from, so the transcription ONLY covers the headings needed for the actual d.c. and does NOT cover any margin or endorsement or 'asides' etc that may have been recorded (struck through or otherwise) .
JM
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You really need to see the printout of the death record.
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"The marriage certificate has St Thomas Church Vestry. They are not married before the church altar. That would mean that one of the couple is not Catholic, and the priest would be ensure that it was recorded as such."
Hmm, interesting, I'd imagine Henry Murray wasn't Catholic, considering he's from an English family.
"I think that they have given Christchurch as "usual residence" because that is their intended residence. Eileen has not been in NZ before her marriage."
Christchurch as usual residence because that's where she intended to live certainly does make sense.
"Henry would be named for his father, and St Aubyn for mother's family"
Yep, makes sense.
"Stella would be named for maternal grandmother, paternal grandmother and mother"
John Murray, Frances Wilmot Coffin, John St Aubyn Burke, Stella Chester are all of Stella F E Murray's grandparents.
Bernard Percival Murray is my father; I do not know where his name comes from. I knew about my aunt and uncle. I will ask around the family.
Henry St. Aubyn Murray had a son, Anthony St Aubyn Murray. The St Aubyn name was not passed down to Anthony's children (probably lost all meaning by that point).
I will get a printout of the death record. Are there any other printouts in NZ that might be useful in finding further information about Eileen?
Thanks for all the help @wivenhoe
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@majm Thanks for all the help and info!
Registration Number: 1854/4580
Family Name: Murray
Given name(s): Henry
Mother's given name(s): Francis Wilmot
Father's given name(s): John
Just took a look at those examples you gave, thank you very much. Incredibly useful. It seems that the NSW marriage cert I got had most of that information in there, apart from birthplace. Would the purpose of getting the original church record be to see the birthplace section?
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Exactly. Somewhere on RChat there's a recent thread discussing RC marriages, and regardless of where in the world, the clergy would refer back to baptism parish register to check the details .... and the details to be recorded on that baptism's parish records include their marriage ....
So hopefully the NSW parish register has the actual place , not just Ireland
JM
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Exactly. Somewhere on RChat there's a recent thread discussing RC marriages, and regardless of where in the world, the clergy would refer back to baptism parish register to check the details .... and the details to be recorded on that baptism's parish records include their marriage ....
So hopefully the NSW parish register has the actual place , not just Ireland
JM
Ooh, interesting. I'll search for that thread. I wonder how that used to work, seems like it could get a bit expensive to copy and send parish records all over the world. I suppose that's discussed in that thread.
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I wonder .... 1858 v 1851 ...
I wonder if 1858 would be possible year of migration with the military etc ... and thus a reissued set of church records were organised by Eileen's dad at that time, thus when she married, the clergy took the year of issue to be the year of the actual event .... speculations of course do not solve the dilemma .... and of course 19th century seamail to and from NSW / Ireland . Say six weeks each way, one week there ... thats three months ..... could cause embarrassing delays to 'hasty' marriages ....
JM
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I wonder .... 1858 v 1851 ...
I wonder if 1858 would be possible year of migration with the military etc ... and thus a reissued set of church records were organised by Eileen's dad at that time, thus when she married, the clergy took the year of issue to be the year of the actual event .... speculations of course do not solve the dilemma .... and of course 19th century seamail to and from NSW / Ireland . Say six weeks each way, one week there ... thats three months ..... could cause embarrassing delays to 'hasty' marriages ....
JM
Hmm yes. I suspect the informant was one of her children, as her husband had already passed away at this point. So that could also be the source of the discrepancy. Would certainly be interesting if that 1851/1858 theory was correct.
St Thomas has responded to my email. They've said the records are in the Archdiocesan archives and they will contact them for me. They've also asked for why I want the information, in case there's another/additional ways to get it. I'll be responding to them now :)
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That's good news :D
Here's that post on that thread I mentioned earlier ....
Thank you - I *think* this couple may have emigrated to Canada so this info is great to have. I wonder why/how the footnote appeared on a baptism record at St Alphonsus for a marriage at St Johns??! ???
M
Its quite usual for the RC church where you are to be married to contact the church where you 'say' you were baptised to check the baptism register. In the RC church marriage is a sacrament and they are/were particular in ensuring that you had been baptised (as a pre qualification to celebrating a later sacrament). So John's would have checked with St Alphonsus, as JenB says the actual marriage record will be at St John's but, having been asked, the priest at St Alphonsus made a note in his baptism register.
I have one where a church in Ontario checked with a Liverpool church and it was noted on the baptism register in Liverpool - distance was no hindrance to them checking !
Though its done for religious purposes its 'very' useful for family history researchers all these years later:-)
Boo
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Exactly. Somewhere on RChat there's a recent thread discussing RC marriages, and regardless of where in the world, the clergy would refer back to baptism parish register to check the details .... and the details to be recorded on that baptism's parish records include their marriage ....
So hopefully the NSW parish register has the actual place , not just Ireland
JM
Ooh, interesting. I'll search for that thread. I wonder how that used to work, seems like it could get a bit expensive to copy and send parish records all over the world. I suppose that's discussed in that thread.
It wasn't standard practice until 20th century. 'Ne Temere' papal decree on marriage 1908 required the marriage celebrant to enter details of the marriage in the baptism register of the bride or to inform her parish of origin if she was baptised elsewhere. Some priests also recorded marriage information in bridegroom's baptism register, some didn't. E.g. Information about my parents' marriage was added to my mother's baptism entry, information about my grandparents' marriage was not added to my grandfather's baptism entry; my mother and grandfather were baptised in the same church and both marriages were after publication of 'Ne Temere'.
Priests would want to know if the couple were Catholics as Catholic marriage is one of the Seven Sacraments. The Catholic Church had rules, canon law on marriage but they were adapted to local situations until 'Ne Temere' promulgated them worldwide. I don't know how much a priest's enquiries would be limited by geography or whether he erred on the side of believing what the couple told him in those days. Bear in mind as well, that record-keeping in Irish Catholic parishes around time of Miss Burke's birth was not good. (I know the parishes where 2 of my Irish families were baptised around that time. One has legible, reasonably neat registers and I found baptisms of all 6 children. The other is a mess - I could find only 1 of 5 (or possibly more) baptisms - entire pages are illegible and runs of years are missing.)
Marriage registers late 19thC-1918 for R.C. church in Bacup, Lancashire has recently been put on Lancashire Online Parish Clerks site. Priests at the church were not consistent about marriage information recorded. One included mothers of bride and groom and their maiden names for marriages 1912 onwards. His successor in 1914 noted baptisms or dates of birth of each spouse. A note to a marriage in 1915 says that no record of baptisms for these people could be found.
One of the reasons for 'Ne Temere' papal decree was to prevent invalid and possibly bigamous marriages by people marrying far away from where they were born. Additional guidance notes discussed whether the telegraph system should be used for communicating between parishes.
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Thanks Maiden Stone for sharing that explanation to help with sorting that possibility out....
JM
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The posts quoted in reply 34 were on a thread about a marriage in 1912 which was 4 years after Catholic canon law on marriage was standardised worldwide by the 'Ne Temere' decree. There is a similar discussion about a marriage in 1914.
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Are there any other printouts in NZ that might be useful in finding further information about Eileen?
The births certs for any of her children should give her age and birthplace and are probably important to see as both are unclear.
Debra :)
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Thanks for the information on "Ne Temere" @Maiden Stone, really unfortunate that wasn't in place for their marriage.
@majm Thanks for pointing me to the thread, very interesting read ;D
Are there any other printouts in NZ that might be useful in finding further information about Eileen?
The births certs for any of her children should give her age and birthplace and are probably important to see as both are unclear.
Debra :)
I got two of her children's birth printouts (she has 3 children). The father was the informant for both and only lists "Ireland" as her birthplace :(
Eileen's death printout: https://i.imgur.com/QDH4x3R.png
Bernard Percival Murray's birth printout: https://i.imgur.com/MpI1DY3.png
Henry St. Aubyn Murray's birth printout: https://i.imgur.com/GtMUsaJ.png
Kind of frustrating the father was the informant. All other birth records I've ordered (from England) the mother was always the informant. Perhaps if she filled them out, she may have given more details.
The informant for Eileen's death was the undertaker. So, I suppose that makes the information less reliable than if it were a close family member?
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Thank you those documents. The undertaker, as informant for the death record for Eileen Gertrude, died 1926, would be the conduit, the medium, recording information passed on by a family member.
At column 10, against age for Eileen, I see..."went to Sydney.........". This has been added after the initial information. Can you make out what it might be? It must have been regarded as worthy of inclusion.
Why would anything be written there, additional to the age, and presumably relevant to that information?.
Birth of first child Henry....six months after the birth?
The name Eileen is not seen commonly seen until late in the 19th century, and popular in the early 20th century. Has Eileen named herself?
Husband Henry might be brief with details about birthplace of wife, Eileen, but Henry, and wife Eileen, know the importance to her of the St Aubyn name.
And Eileen does not pass on the BURKE name to her children?
What is Henry MURRAY doing in Sydney, 1884?. It might help in locating Eileen in Sydney at that time.